EPT[Patch 4.10] Nidalee/Skarner Rework General Discussion - P…
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On June 24 2014 00:18 Alaric wrote: Maokai would be exactly the kind of pick you'd want against Twitch or Jinx, mitigating AoE damage while providing lockdown (soon to be obsolete, Smash why do you want to turn a diver into a bodyguard T_T). because he can't hope to compete with Vi, Malphite, Zac, Jarvan, etc etc etc etc etc on the diving axis. I mean, I could just leave him as a bad pick, but the fact of the matter is that the "diver" role is heavily overloaded in our game and this guy's entire kit outside of W was begging to be a supportive peel tank. not to mention, he's still pretty damn solid as a dive buddy right now, DR is stronger from a gold perspective on targets with higher resists which means there is still a pretty solid incentive for him to support a backline diver who can start the fight for him. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:12 Mogwai wrote: because he can't hope to compete with Vi, Malphite, Zac, Jarvan, etc etc etc etc etc on the diving axis. I mean, I could just leave him as a bad pick, but the fact of the matter is that the "diver" role is heavily overloaded in our game and this guy's entire kit outside of W was begging to be a supportive peel tank. not to mention, he's still pretty damn solid as a dive buddy right now, DR is stronger from a gold perspective on targets with higher resists which means there is still a pretty solid incentive for him to support a backline diver who can start the fight for him. inb4 AP Maokai FotM :3 Always dives, never dies | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:18 Sufficiency wrote: inb4 AP Maokai FotM :3 Always dives, never dies Not gonna lie, I'm a little worried about it, but from what I've seen, the Meowkais that build glass AP tend to just blow the fk up when they dive in :3. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:01 Prog wrote: I'm a bit late with a response, but that is just ridiculously wrong. I don't think you ever played against decent Braums if you seriously think Janna beats Braum. Your belief that you know how strong Braum is from like 7 games total against him in your low plat (?) elo is hilarious just on its own. Janna definitely beats Braum. They're even in lane but then lategame comes and your AD is stronger than theirs. All Janna has to do is stand in creeps so that Braum can't Q her easily and she will almost always trade favorably pre-6. Post-6 his all-in is threatening, but not so threatening as to give him an advantage. On June 24 2014 09:05 GolemMadness wrote: Wait, Morgana is beat by... J4? J4 is immune to roots due to the mechanics of his EQ. Morgana's black shield doesn't prevent his ult. She effectively has no peel against his engage and no shield against his damage because he does all physical. J4's shield is so strong due to the bonus scaling for hitting more than one person that he can basically all-in for free starting at level 3. At level 2 he wins any trade due to his passive and e-q combo. He is susceptible to bullying pre-2. But afterwards her wrecks. On June 24 2014 07:44 Scip wrote: Braum and Morgana are super strong too. All of them have their own niches. Aside from the fact that support itemization is super shitty the support position is in a pretty good place. Frankly if support itemization was fixed, a lot of the "weaker" supports like Janna would come back into play simply because itemizing for utility would be effective compared to champions with ratios. Only Thresh and potentially Morgana are really in a position where they "do too much". The problem with Thresh is that he fits into every team comp and can be played against any team comp. He has very few weakneses in lane and because his pick and peel are so strong, losing lane isn't as large of a deal as it is with other supports. Morgana has the same sort of advantage. Its not as problematic because her peel is weaker and less guaranteed; this means that the enemy team can steam roll when they're ahead, or capitalize on missed picks. Every other support has lane, but most importantly, team composition counters. Braum, for all of his tauted strength is legitimately weak if the enemy is melee heavy or if the other AD is ahead. If the enemy is assassin heavy he cannot protect his ADC because he only has ranged peel. If the enemy's AD is stronger then their team doesn't care about Braum's ranged peel because they still win the straight up fight. Ali, Nami, Sona, Lulu, Karma? They all do something particularly well, combined with or against the right composition. But its so hard to itemize for them right now its pretty ridiculous. On June 24 2014 04:52 Disengaged wrote: Soo uh, botrk is still very good on Shyvana it basically feels like she does more damage with it this patch then before. That is because BotRK got a 60% boost to its on-hit damage | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:23 VayneAuthority wrote: they killed AP moakai if those changes go through. he will basically be another boring bruiser after they "fix" him As opposed to a shitty mage hybrid assassin? | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:29 GolemMadness wrote: Ok, but nobody plays J4 support, so I don't think it really matters if he beats Morgana or not. Why aren't you playing dunk lanes? Darius j4 best lane ever. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:29 GolemMadness wrote: Ok, but nobody plays J4 support, so I don't think it really matters if he beats Morgana or not. He doesn't even beat morgana dunno what this guy is smoking.You just pick any ad with an escape and he literally can't do anything.Dodge his combo and kill him..... | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:12 Mogwai wrote: because he can't hope to compete with Vi, Malphite, Zac, Jarvan, etc etc etc etc etc on the diving axis. I mean, I could just leave him as a bad pick, but the fact of the matter is that the "diver" role is heavily overloaded in our game and this guy's entire kit outside of W was begging to be a supportive peel tank. not to mention, he's still pretty damn solid as a dive buddy right now, DR is stronger from a gold perspective on targets with higher resists which means there is still a pretty solid incentive for him to support a backline diver who can start the fight for him. I summed up my thoughts on the matter more in that official thread, but... as much as my initial reaction was "Uh? I'm thinking League lacks dive right now" as long as we talk initiators and not assassins, on second thought it's true that if tanky junglers come back into play in general, then Malphite, Zac, etc. will do a better job than him, and will add to the preexisting ones. I'm still thinking (without a PBE account mind you, plus the unstable 200+ ping would prob make it awkward to evaluate positioning dependant stuff) that the changes to his ult may feel clumsy, because it effectively reduces its area (Maokai takes a portion of it, and in the case of long range champions like Ziggs, Tristana, Cait, etc.if he is successful at peeling at first then it will be harder for him to position well, since leaving the backline means making them more exposed, but they're sometimes so far he doesn't have much to do himself). I forgot about W's reduced cd now. Maybe between that and the removal of the cast time, even with shorter range it'll up his in-fight mobility enough to let him play reactively. I'm also guilty of having played him balls to the walls (mainly in s2 and early s3 so AoE comps were very prevalent at the time) by locking down a target as initiation and dropping the ult behind me when the enemy team would inevitably ignore me to either focus on the damage dealers following my initiation or my own backline. I feel like this playstyle is the most impacted. I guess you could argue than it reinforces his role as a protector, since now he really doesn't want to dive alone (even to cockblock the enemy Wukong f.e.) and either helps people like Yasuo or Kassadin be even harder to take down at they fight in the backline, or stays behind, but in both cases he moves to defend someone. Did you feel that ability to be pretty forgiving in these dives (compared to a Malphite who doesn't have much once he ults the enemy backline, without much mobility or the ability to E the big guys who dived his own) was too much for him? That it needed to be more focused, more punishable if Maokai doesn't choose well? TL;DR As you pointed out on reddit there's a sound logic behind the changes. It's just that I guess even after looking at them in a more level-headed manner, I'm uncomfortable with what I perceived as one of his great strengths (versatility and ability to impact several parts of the battlefield to make up for his low mobility) and part of what made him fun (reckless dives to force a reaction without compromising your team too much thanks to the ult) seem to be gone. Also, hi! o/ Miss your stream a bit, but West Coast would be hard to follow anyway. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:32 nafta wrote: He doesn't even beat morgana dunno what this guy is smoking.You just pick any ad with an escape and he literally can't do anything.Dodge his combo and kill him..... Ad with an escape plus morgana is attacking Jarvan. Ad with an escape plus jarvan is attacking Morgana. Who wins? Morgana, against Jarvan literally has zero abilities besides her ult. Nothing else does anything. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
Case in point: Garen went from slightly weak in solo que to a pile of trash now. You can never really close the gap against a ADC and stick to them, especially one with a dash. I mean it's not like he was a world beater before, but now there's almost no reason to pick him at all. Other champions get hurt by it a lot too. Olaf is affected quite similarly, Udyr too. The list goes on for quite a while. I don't get why they make such big changes without incrementing until they feel they hit a good point. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Not sure what you mean about Mikael's, though. The price increase is really brutal, especially since chalice means you don't need the mp5 from idol at all, basically paying 800+ gold more for CDR that is only the icing on the cake. Unless you went with Spellthief's Edge, that much gold is a lot, especially in the midgame when it can easily decide between having Crucible + your tier3 support item, and having only Crucible. On June 24 2014 09:36 Goumindong wrote: Ad with an escape plus morgana is attacking Jarvan. Ad with an escape plus jarvan is attacking Morgana. Who wins? Morgana, against Jarvan literally has zero abilities besides her ult. Nothing else does anything. "Dodge his combo" is fine and all but not as easy as nafta seems to claim if J4 doesn't telegraph it. On the other hand, why would Morgana try to peel him? Black Shield the AD so he doesn't get knocked-up, he dashes out of the cataclysm, and then nothing stops you from keeping Dark Binding + W + ult for the enemy AD (who J4 can't protect either), especially if your AD has longer range. J4 is also going to blow up in any fight past early skirmishes if he doesn't get a bunch of gold from kills so really the onus is on him, which would prob delight your jungler as it's easier to gank a J4 who has to play aggressive than a Morgana who can just shrug and wait out the lane. If he can't counter a shoving duo he may also look silly because he'll be behind on exp. | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:22 Goumindong wrote: Janna definitely beats Braum. They're even in lane but then lategame comes and your AD is stronger than theirs. All Janna has to do is stand in creeps so that Braum can't Q her easily and she will almost always trade favorably pre-6. Post-6 his all-in is threatening, but not so threatening as to give him an advantage. Sorry, but you have to give more of a backing for your argument. It is very unlikely that you with a self-claimed total of ~7 games versus Braum know that Janna definitely beats Braum, whereas not only me and all the people I play with/against, but also every professional team did not get the memo and still first pick/ban Braum instead of countering him with the infamous Janna. This all sounds like very bad theorycrafting to me. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:44 Alaric wrote: "Dodge his combo" is fine and all but not as easy as nafta seems to claim if J4 doesn't telegraph it. On the other hand, why would Morgana try to peel him? Black Shield the AD so he doesn't get knocked-up, he dashes out of the cataclysm, and then nothing stops you from keeping Dark Binding + W + ult for the enemy AD (who J4 can't protect either), especially if your AD has longer range. J4 is also going to blow up in any fight past early skirmishes if he doesn't get a bunch of gold from kills so really the onus is on him, which would prob delight your jungler as it's easier to gank a J4 who has to play aggressive than a Morgana who can just shrug and wait out the lane. If he can't counter a shoving duo he may also look silly because he'll be behind on exp. You beat her from level 3. By the time you're considering ulting their AD you just ult and kill morgana instead because what are they going to do about it? J4 gets a massive shield if he maxes it first, which he can do because he is a support. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:36 Goumindong wrote: Ad with an escape plus morgana is attacking Jarvan. Ad with an escape plus jarvan is attacking Morgana. Who wins? Morgana, against Jarvan literally has zero abilities besides her ult. Nothing else does anything. All you do is stay far enough back so his ad cant jump after his combo and it is a super easy win in lane.While your ad pokes him you w the wave and poke them under tower.Also j4 has shitty damage unless you get damage runes/masteries and if you do that he is super squishy. Also yes his combo is ridiculously easy to dodge.If you have any sort of movement ability j4 combo should NEVER hit you and with boots 2 it is pretty easy to just sidestep. J4 support is fucking horrible.Leona does LITERALLY EVERYTHING better than him. LOL YOU MAX SHIELD FIRST THATS EVEN MORE RETARDED | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:48 Prog wrote: Sorry, but you have to give more of a backing for your argument. It is very unlikely that you with a self-claimed total of ~7 games versus Braum know that Janna definitely beats Braum, whereas not only me and all the people I play with/against, but also every professional team did not get the memo and still first pick/ban Braum instead of countering him with the infamous Janna. This all sounds like very bad theorycrafting to me. Sorry you didn't get the memo. I thought it got sent to everyone, i guess you got skipped. I am not surprised that Janna is not played in professional matches regardless of her strength versus Braum, because Janna doesn't bring much to a 2-0 (her shield is ok nor does she provide a lot of strength when roaming so she doesn't fit into the professional meta at all, and tips your hand that you want a traditional lane if you pick her) Any way tried to find some stats on the matchup but lolking only has AD bottom lane matchups and not support matchups. Elophant is challenger only (and no info on braum at all) | ||
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