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On June 24 2014 09:49 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 09:44 Alaric wrote:On June 24 2014 09:36 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 09:32 nafta wrote:On June 24 2014 09:29 GolemMadness wrote:
Ok, but nobody plays J4 support, so I don't think it really matters if he beats Morgana or not. He doesn't even beat morgana dunno what this guy is smoking.You just pick any ad with an escape and he literally can't do anything.Dodge his combo and kill him..... Ad with an escape plus morgana is attacking Jarvan. Ad with an escape plus jarvan is attacking Morgana. Who wins? Morgana, against Jarvan literally has zero abilities besides her ult. Nothing else does anything. "Dodge his combo" is fine and all but not as easy as nafta seems to claim if J4 doesn't telegraph it. On the other hand, why would Morgana try to peel him? Black Shield the AD so he doesn't get knocked-up, he dashes out of the cataclysm, and then nothing stops you from keeping Dark Binding + W + ult for the enemy AD (who J4 can't protect either), especially if your AD has longer range. J4 is also going to blow up in any fight past early skirmishes if he doesn't get a bunch of gold from kills so really the onus is on him, which would prob delight your jungler as it's easier to gank a J4 who has to play aggressive than a Morgana who can just shrug and wait out the lane. If he can't counter a shoving duo he may also look silly because he'll be behind on exp. You beat her from level 3. By the time you're considering ulting their AD you just ult and kill morgana instead because what are they going to do about it? J4 gets a massive shield if he maxes it first, which he can do because he is a support.
what the hell is the point of playing j4 support if you're going to max shield wtf?
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On June 24 2014 09:56 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 09:36 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 09:32 nafta wrote:On June 24 2014 09:29 GolemMadness wrote:
Ok, but nobody plays J4 support, so I don't think it really matters if he beats Morgana or not. He doesn't even beat morgana dunno what this guy is smoking.You just pick any ad with an escape and he literally can't do anything.Dodge his combo and kill him..... Ad with an escape plus morgana is attacking Jarvan. Ad with an escape plus jarvan is attacking Morgana. Who wins? Morgana, against Jarvan literally has zero abilities besides her ult. Nothing else does anything. All you do is stay far enough back so his ad cant jump after his combo and it is a super easy win in lane.While your ad pokes him you w the wave and poke them under tower.Also j4 has shitty damage unless you get damage runes/masteries and if you do that he is super squishy. Also yes his combo is ridiculously easy to dodge.If you have any sort of movement ability j4 combo should NEVER hit you and with boots 2 it is pretty easy to just sidestep. J4 support is fucking horrible.Leona does LITERALLY EVERYTHING better than him. LOL YOU MAX SHIELD FIRST THATS EVEN MORE RETARDED
Yes because Leona is particularly strong against Morgana. Thank you for your wisdom Nafta.
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On June 24 2014 10:01 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 09:56 nafta wrote:On June 24 2014 09:36 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 09:32 nafta wrote:On June 24 2014 09:29 GolemMadness wrote:
Ok, but nobody plays J4 support, so I don't think it really matters if he beats Morgana or not. He doesn't even beat morgana dunno what this guy is smoking.You just pick any ad with an escape and he literally can't do anything.Dodge his combo and kill him..... Ad with an escape plus morgana is attacking Jarvan. Ad with an escape plus jarvan is attacking Morgana. Who wins? Morgana, against Jarvan literally has zero abilities besides her ult. Nothing else does anything. All you do is stay far enough back so his ad cant jump after his combo and it is a super easy win in lane.While your ad pokes him you w the wave and poke them under tower.Also j4 has shitty damage unless you get damage runes/masteries and if you do that he is super squishy. Also yes his combo is ridiculously easy to dodge.If you have any sort of movement ability j4 combo should NEVER hit you and with boots 2 it is pretty easy to just sidestep. J4 support is fucking horrible.Leona does LITERALLY EVERYTHING better than him. LOL YOU MAX SHIELD FIRST THATS EVEN MORE RETARDED Yes because Leona is particularly strong against Morgana. Thank you for your wisdom Nafta.
Yes she is actually pretty decent.It is a skill matchup.Literally every pro has said this you don't have to believe me if you don't want to.
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On June 24 2014 09:44 Alaric wrote:
Olaf isn't affected too much in that he can chain axes if he plays properly
I think it's a pretty big deal because of the loss of the consistency. If Olaf misses an axe or throws it a bit off so he can't recover it, he's potentially screwed. Also, targets autoing you with Randuin's were easier to hit with axes.
For champions that are already on the fringe, loss of consistency is a big deal, because you already have a shorter list of reasons to play them in the first place.
Edit: Also when you're diving a team, you're probably eating autos from 3-5 champions, and there's almost zero chance you're landing axes on all of them. So the Randuin's slow makes it easier for the rest of your team to close on them.
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On June 24 2014 10:00 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 09:49 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 09:44 Alaric wrote:On June 24 2014 09:36 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 09:32 nafta wrote:On June 24 2014 09:29 GolemMadness wrote:
Ok, but nobody plays J4 support, so I don't think it really matters if he beats Morgana or not. He doesn't even beat morgana dunno what this guy is smoking.You just pick any ad with an escape and he literally can't do anything.Dodge his combo and kill him..... Ad with an escape plus morgana is attacking Jarvan. Ad with an escape plus jarvan is attacking Morgana. Who wins? Morgana, against Jarvan literally has zero abilities besides her ult. Nothing else does anything. "Dodge his combo" is fine and all but not as easy as nafta seems to claim if J4 doesn't telegraph it. On the other hand, why would Morgana try to peel him? Black Shield the AD so he doesn't get knocked-up, he dashes out of the cataclysm, and then nothing stops you from keeping Dark Binding + W + ult for the enemy AD (who J4 can't protect either), especially if your AD has longer range. J4 is also going to blow up in any fight past early skirmishes if he doesn't get a bunch of gold from kills so really the onus is on him, which would prob delight your jungler as it's easier to gank a J4 who has to play aggressive than a Morgana who can just shrug and wait out the lane. If he can't counter a shoving duo he may also look silly because he'll be behind on exp. You beat her from level 3. By the time you're considering ulting their AD you just ult and kill morgana instead because what are they going to do about it? J4 gets a massive shield if he maxes it first, which he can do because he is a support. what the hell is the point of playing j4 support if you're going to max shield wtf?
Win the game? What is the point of any support that maxes their defensive ability first? If you max Q first you get 45 damage/level and a few % points of armor shred. Not too bad; but you're not poking with Q much as engaging with E-Q so the CD doesn't matter. If you max W first you get 40 +10/enemy shield per level, which is really good. Plus a better slow, plus CD to use it more often.
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if you just want a slow why don't you just play leona/thresh/braum? Black shield isn't up 24/7 you just learn to play around it. Maxing shield on J4 in the support role makes him a shitty meatshield with 0 damage like wtf is the point? What are you going to do cataclysm the morg and watch her ult/bind you? her lvl1 ult does like 500 damage and you have lvl1 q/e with tank runes. You get poked out if you eat a binding in lane and you have no sustain.
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On June 24 2014 10:02 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 10:01 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 09:56 nafta wrote:On June 24 2014 09:36 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 09:32 nafta wrote:On June 24 2014 09:29 GolemMadness wrote:
Ok, but nobody plays J4 support, so I don't think it really matters if he beats Morgana or not. He doesn't even beat morgana dunno what this guy is smoking.You just pick any ad with an escape and he literally can't do anything.Dodge his combo and kill him..... Ad with an escape plus morgana is attacking Jarvan. Ad with an escape plus jarvan is attacking Morgana. Who wins? Morgana, against Jarvan literally has zero abilities besides her ult. Nothing else does anything. All you do is stay far enough back so his ad cant jump after his combo and it is a super easy win in lane.While your ad pokes him you w the wave and poke them under tower.Also j4 has shitty damage unless you get damage runes/masteries and if you do that he is super squishy. Also yes his combo is ridiculously easy to dodge.If you have any sort of movement ability j4 combo should NEVER hit you and with boots 2 it is pretty easy to just sidestep. J4 support is fucking horrible.Leona does LITERALLY EVERYTHING better than him. LOL YOU MAX SHIELD FIRST THATS EVEN MORE RETARDED Yes because Leona is particularly strong against Morgana. Thank you for your wisdom Nafta. Yes she is actually pretty decent.It is a skill matchup.Literally every pro has said this you don't have to believe me if you don't want to.
Leona can bait the shield onto the AD and then stun Morgana yes. Or similarly bait the shield onto Morg. Either way the lane is Morgana's to lose, Leona has to severely out play her to make it work
J4 has precisely the same advantage that Leona has except that J4 isn't worried about black shield or Morgana's root. So if Leona is good, then j4 pretty much must be better
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On June 24 2014 10:07 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 10:02 nafta wrote:On June 24 2014 10:01 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 09:56 nafta wrote:On June 24 2014 09:36 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 09:32 nafta wrote:On June 24 2014 09:29 GolemMadness wrote:
Ok, but nobody plays J4 support, so I don't think it really matters if he beats Morgana or not. He doesn't even beat morgana dunno what this guy is smoking.You just pick any ad with an escape and he literally can't do anything.Dodge his combo and kill him..... Ad with an escape plus morgana is attacking Jarvan. Ad with an escape plus jarvan is attacking Morgana. Who wins? Morgana, against Jarvan literally has zero abilities besides her ult. Nothing else does anything. All you do is stay far enough back so his ad cant jump after his combo and it is a super easy win in lane.While your ad pokes him you w the wave and poke them under tower.Also j4 has shitty damage unless you get damage runes/masteries and if you do that he is super squishy. Also yes his combo is ridiculously easy to dodge.If you have any sort of movement ability j4 combo should NEVER hit you and with boots 2 it is pretty easy to just sidestep. J4 support is fucking horrible.Leona does LITERALLY EVERYTHING better than him. LOL YOU MAX SHIELD FIRST THATS EVEN MORE RETARDED Yes because Leona is particularly strong against Morgana. Thank you for your wisdom Nafta. Yes she is actually pretty decent.It is a skill matchup.Literally every pro has said this you don't have to believe me if you don't want to. Leona can bait the shield onto the AD and then stun Morgana yes. Or similarly bait the shield onto Morg. Either way the lane is Morgana's to lose, Leona has to severely out play her to make it work J4 has precisely the same advantage that Leona has except that J4 isn't worried about black shield or Morgana's root. So if Leona is good, then j4 pretty much must be better
Except first of all she is actually useful later in the game and actually does damage unlike j4.How is j4 not worried about black shield if you max shield?It negates your slow and knockup.With shield max you do no damage so destroying your utility completely negates your power.
If j4 was good at supporting he would be played bro.
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how do you engage and win if you are just a fat shield and no utility or damage.
lulu's shield is stronger at any rank, can shield either you or your AD, and gives her passive, and has a lower cd at level one than aegis does at level 5.
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On June 24 2014 10:07 Nos- wrote:
if you just want a slow why don't you just play leona/thresh/braum? Black shield isn't up 24/7 you just learn to play around it. Maxing shield on J4 in the support role makes him a shitty meatshield with 0 damage like wtf is the point? What are you going to do cataclysm the morg and watch her ult/bind you? her lvl1 does like 500 damage and you have lvl1 q/e with tank runes. You get poked out if you eat a binding in lane and you have no sustain.
Morgana's level 1 ult does 350+1.4. Its a lot, but it has to proc twice.
Cataclysm does 200. And you're maxing shield and so have 3 ranks, which means you have a 170-210 HP shield
The differential between your shield and Morgana's ult, if you had zero MR (which you will not have because you start at 30, and gain at least 1.25 a level and definitely have more due to masteries and runes), would be 140. So call it an even hundred. Does Morgana's root do that much damage that J4's ult and combo and passive and base stats and attack speed bonus don't do more? No, no it does not.
Morgana just isn't that threatening to J4. And J4 is super threatening to Morgana.
edit; I take it none of you have ever played the matchup have you?
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Level 2 j4 deals more damage than morg. But how are you going to play out the rest of the lane(not offending you, im curious)? Any hard engage between level 2-6 looks doomed to fail. She can black shield your knockup leaving you in a terrible position since you basically just overextended without gaining anything. You can use it to gapclose but wont she just bind you and you get poked for free? The shield isnt particularly strong in the early levels.
Also i can imagine j4 running out of mana pretty fast if he keeps trying to engage.
Do you just play the lane passive till level 6 when you can cataclysm?
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On June 24 2014 10:04 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 09:44 Alaric wrote:
Olaf isn't affected too much in that he can chain axes if he plays properly I think it's a pretty big deal because of the loss of the consistency. If Olaf misses an axe or throws it a bit off so he can't recover it, he's potentially screwed. Also, targets autoing you with Randuin's were easier to hit with axes. For champions that are already on the fringe, loss of consistency is a big deal, because you already have a shorter list of reasons to play them in the first place. Edit: Also when you're diving a team, you're probably eating autos from 3-5 champions, and there's almost zero chance you're landing axes on all of them. So the Randuin's slow makes it easier for the rest of your team to close on them.
Also because chaining axes is like a unicorn with its current iteration. Olaf is still balanced around having ghost up for every fight, which is to say, not balanced particularly well.
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You have to max Q on J4. The % armor reduction is gonna help out your adc a lot in every situation. Why do we even have a discussion of which spells to max first on J4?
The EQ + passive alone already does almost 1/3 of everybody's hp already.
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On June 24 2014 10:23 Bam Lee wrote:
Level 2 j4 deals more damage than morg. But how are you going to play out the rest of the lane(not offending you, im curious)? Any hard engage between level 2-6 looks doomed to fail. She can black shield your knockup leaving you in a terrible position since you basically just overextended without gaining anything. You can use it to gapclose but wont she just bind you and you get poked for free? The shield isnt particularly strong in the early levels.
Also i can imagine j4 running out of mana pretty fast if he keeps trying to engage.
Do you just play the lane passive till level 6 when you can cataclysm?
J4 deals more damage than Morg at all levels due to his passive(until she gets AP); that combined with his shield and inherent tankiness mean that he wins trades with her the entirety of laning phase.
J4's mana costs are really low actually(In order 45,30,55), and his shield is massive. The AoE burst on his shield is large enough to easily get two people in it. Your 2 person rank 1 shield is 90. So a little less than Lulu who is set with AP (needs 16 AP to equalize). Your rank 2 shield is 150, lulu would need 50 AP and rank 2 shield to equalize. Rank 3 is 210, lulu needs 83 AP and rank 3. Rank 4 is 270, lulu needs 116 AP to equalize.
It scales really well into mid game team fights where your shield can be upwards of 500 HP for a level 9 team fight (though 390 is a more reasonable number)
On June 24 2014 10:28 canikizu wrote:
You have to max Q on J4. The % armor reduction is gonna help out your adc a lot in every situation. Why do we even have a discussion of which spells to max first on J4?
The EQ + passive alone already does almost 1/3 of everybody's hp already.
Not as a support. You can max Q but W max is safer and enables you to win trades better. In the jungle the shield is really bad because there are no enemy champions to hit, if you're ganking the shield barely matters because its a 2v1. In lane however the shield is huge because you can hit two people with it each time. And the extra strength means that the trade differential (enemy HP lost vs Allied HP lost) is better for J4 with his shield.
I mean J4 will have some 50 armor/MR at level 1-3. So one level of shield is worth about 90 HP in a trade. One level of Q is worth 45 HP/Armor plus a 4% reduction in the enemies armor for subsequent attacks. If that enemy has 40 armor that is worth 1.6 armor/level. Its very good as your second rank up, because the bonus from your flag is pitiful, and because enemies will have more armor later in the game. But before the percentage shred means anything, its not as strong a rankup. This differs from solo lane and jungle J4. Solo lane J4 will want to poke/harass with Q, but support J4 will almost always want to engage in those situations.
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United States15536 Posts
On June 24 2014 09:12 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 00:18 Alaric wrote:
Maokai would be exactly the kind of pick you'd want against Twitch or Jinx, mitigating AoE damage while providing lockdown (soon to be obsolete, Smash why do you want to turn a diver into a bodyguard T_T). because he can't hope to compete with Vi, Malphite, Zac, Jarvan, etc etc etc etc etc on the diving axis. I mean, I could just leave him as a bad pick, but the fact of the matter is that the "diver" role is heavily overloaded in our game and this guy's entire kit outside of W was begging to be a supportive peel tank. not to mention, he's still pretty damn solid as a dive buddy right now, DR is stronger from a gold perspective on targets with higher resists which means there is still a pretty solid incentive for him to support a backline diver who can start the fight for him.
Who da fuck is dis noob?
+ Show Spoiler +welcome back hao r u?  we miss ya
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On June 24 2014 09:26 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 09:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
they killed AP moakai if those changes go through. he will basically be another boring bruiser after they "fix" him As opposed to a shitty mage hybrid assassin?
he has a perfectly fine kit that can be buffed purely with numbers. No other support can do that kind of poke damage and then all-in at will.
no other mid tank can keep up like he can mid.
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as long as we're talking about supports that aren't supports. urgot support is fun, something satisfying about being able to launch a grenade and get your frost queen stacks off in one go, that + the shield slow and extra hp makes laning a lot of fun, dunno how good it is just yet, but its definitely very very fun.
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I think the real question here is if WW support beats J4 support.
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On June 24 2014 10:35 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 10:23 Bam Lee wrote:
Level 2 j4 deals more damage than morg. But how are you going to play out the rest of the lane(not offending you, im curious)? Any hard engage between level 2-6 looks doomed to fail. She can black shield your knockup leaving you in a terrible position since you basically just overextended without gaining anything. You can use it to gapclose but wont she just bind you and you get poked for free? The shield isnt particularly strong in the early levels.
Also i can imagine j4 running out of mana pretty fast if he keeps trying to engage.
Do you just play the lane passive till level 6 when you can cataclysm? J4 deals more damage than Morg at all levels due to his passive(until she gets AP); that combined with his shield and inherent tankiness mean that he wins trades with her the entirety of laning phase. J4's mana costs are really low actually(In order 45,30,55), and his shield is massive. The AoE burst on his shield is large enough to easily get two people in it. Your 2 person rank 1 shield is 90. So a little less than Lulu who is set with AP (needs 16 AP to equalize). Your rank 2 shield is 150, lulu would need 50 AP and rank 2 shield to equalize. Rank 3 is 210, lulu needs 83 AP and rank 3. Rank 4 is 270, lulu needs 116 AP to equalize. It scales really well into mid game team fights where your shield can be upwards of 500 HP for a level 9 team fight (though 390 is a more reasonable number) Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 10:28 canikizu wrote:
You have to max Q on J4. The % armor reduction is gonna help out your adc a lot in every situation. Why do we even have a discussion of which spells to max first on J4?
The EQ + passive alone already does almost 1/3 of everybody's hp already. Not as a support. You can max Q but W max is safer and enables you to win trades better. In the jungle the shield is really bad because there are no enemy champions to hit, if you're ganking the shield barely matters because its a 2v1. In lane however the shield is huge because you can hit two people with it each time. And the extra strength means that the trade differential (enemy HP lost vs Allied HP lost) is better for J4 with his shield. I mean J4 will have some 50 armor/MR at level 1-3. So one level of shield is worth about 90 HP in a trade. One level of Q is worth 45 HP/Armor plus a 4% reduction in the enemies armor for subsequent attacks. If that enemy has 40 armor that is worth 1.6 armor/level. Its very good as your second rank up, because the bonus from your flag is pitiful, and because enemies will have more armor later in the game. But before the percentage shred means anything, its not as strong a rankup. This differs from solo lane and jungle J4. Solo lane J4 will want to poke/harass with Q, but support J4 will almost always want to engage in those situations.
You will almost never get J4's shield to 500. It's even hard to get it to 390HP. To get 390hp, your W has to hit 3 people in 300-aoe range, that is even smaller than Cataclysm's aoe. You usually have even hard time to get your W to hit 2 people in 2v2 scenario, let alone a big team fight. It's a blessing if J4 can hit ulti on 3 people, let alone a W on 3 people. Moreover, if you level up the W because you get harassed, then the most likely scenario is the enemy wasn't even in your 300-aoe range in the first place to maximize your W.
When you play J4 support. Your game play should be all-in or almost all-in, and in all-in scenario, maxing Q is always better.
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On June 24 2014 10:53 GolemMadness wrote:
I think the real question here is if WW support beats J4 support.
Lol the match of legends
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EPT
