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On June 21 2014 09:50 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 09:30 TheYango wrote:
I watched the clip, and I think I get what Xizor is trying to point out with the clip.
Essentially, none of the crits in that clip were what could be considered "lucky" really. Over a 3-4 minute period, The PA got crits at about an average rate, and the entire engagement would have played out very similarly even if rather than having crit, there was simply a % multiplier on damage. The gameplay over a long engagement would have been relatively similar.
How crit improves the experience is the visceral feeling toward a large burst of damage, and the inherent tension of waiting for a random occurrence. It's more "exciting" to see a ton of HP drop, and a big red number. Seeing consistent, reliable damage in moderate increments, is simply less exciting than seeing a big HP drop from a crit.
The problem is that where this applies to League, I don't think you can expect a fight to play out in such a way where you have a long engagement where crit "evens out". Fights don't play out like that in League because survivability tends to be very lopsided (very tanky or very squishy champs), and because of that fights actually do end up in situations where having that crit or not does change the outcome--either because the ADC is very squishy or is hitting a very squishy target where that extra burst of damage changes the actual result. Having Crit ain't everything not having it is. Exactly Yango TY. But even laning phase is long enough that crit will even out.
No it won't. Even when triforce used to slow on a % chance? That was much higher than the lower crit chance we see in lane, and that was determining factor for a lot of botlane trades. Especially since you had access to it at 1300~ gold with phage.
the problem is that 1 bad trade could be the end of that entire lane, in terms of whether or not you can retaliate. So yes, if we're talking about just last hitting, then yes, %chance evens out, but when we're talking about only needing 1 lane trade to completely snowball a lane, then, no, it doesn't go long enough to even it out.
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On June 21 2014 09:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 09:11 RagequitBM wrote:
I just don't really see the negative in crit. Especially the way League has it implemented. If I get a lucky crit in lane, I laugh, and it's exciting. If I get crit in lane luckily, I don't get mad, I just shrug it off because I know how they're probably feeling. Getting 3 crits in a row during a teamfight is pretty hilarious too, and losing a fight because of that is pretty funny to me as well.
And of course Crit animations are really cool too for some champions.
Also Jayce is a really fun champion. I should play him more often... And that new mana auto attack item thing is sweet on him. The Amumu crit animation is too op
Anivia is my favorite I think.
I've been trying teambuilder out, and it's super fun. Just takes forever to find a jungler usually, I really like how they implemented it
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On June 21 2014 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:
No it won't. Even when triforce used to slow on a % chance? That was much higher than the lower crit chance we see in lane, and that was determining factor for a lot of botlane trades. Especially since you had access to it at 1300~ gold with phage.
the problem is that 1 bad trade could be the end of that entire lane, in terms of whether or not you can retaliate. So yes, if we're talking about just last hitting, then yes, %chance evens out, but when we're talking about only needing 1 lane trade to completely snowball a lane, then, no, it doesn't go long enough to even it out.
So the solution is to remove the thing only causing problems because lanes snowball to hard instead of working on the snowball issue?
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On June 21 2014 10:02 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:
No it won't. Even when triforce used to slow on a % chance? That was much higher than the lower crit chance we see in lane, and that was determining factor for a lot of botlane trades. Especially since you had access to it at 1300~ gold with phage.
the problem is that 1 bad trade could be the end of that entire lane, in terms of whether or not you can retaliate. So yes, if we're talking about just last hitting, then yes, %chance evens out, but when we're talking about only needing 1 lane trade to completely snowball a lane, then, no, it doesn't go long enough to even it out. So the solution is to remove the thing only causing problems because lanes snowball to hard instead of working on the snowball issue?
Did you even read what I posted like a page ago? Just need to get rid of early game crit
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On June 21 2014 10:02 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:
No it won't. Even when triforce used to slow on a % chance? That was much higher than the lower crit chance we see in lane, and that was determining factor for a lot of botlane trades. Especially since you had access to it at 1300~ gold with phage.
the problem is that 1 bad trade could be the end of that entire lane, in terms of whether or not you can retaliate. So yes, if we're talking about just last hitting, then yes, %chance evens out, but when we're talking about only needing 1 lane trade to completely snowball a lane, then, no, it doesn't go long enough to even it out. So the solution is to remove the thing only causing problems because lanes snowball to hard instead of working on the snowball issue?
Unless you disable crit you can't really change that shit lol.
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On June 21 2014 10:13 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 10:02 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 21 2014 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:
No it won't. Even when triforce used to slow on a % chance? That was much higher than the lower crit chance we see in lane, and that was determining factor for a lot of botlane trades. Especially since you had access to it at 1300~ gold with phage.
the problem is that 1 bad trade could be the end of that entire lane, in terms of whether or not you can retaliate. So yes, if we're talking about just last hitting, then yes, %chance evens out, but when we're talking about only needing 1 lane trade to completely snowball a lane, then, no, it doesn't go long enough to even it out. So the solution is to remove the thing only causing problems because lanes snowball to hard instead of working on the snowball issue? Unless you disable crit you can't really change that shit lol.
Make early game crit inaccessible. Or make it's early game alternatives better. Like when BT was the best item to go first.
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On June 21 2014 09:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 09:11 RagequitBM wrote:
I just don't really see the negative in crit. Especially the way League has it implemented. If I get a lucky crit in lane, I laugh, and it's exciting. If I get crit in lane luckily, I don't get mad, I just shrug it off because I know how they're probably feeling. Getting 3 crits in a row during a teamfight is pretty hilarious too, and losing a fight because of that is pretty funny to me as well.
And of course Crit animations are really cool too for some champions.
Also Jayce is a really fun champion. I should play him more often... And that new mana auto attack item thing is sweet on him. The Amumu crit animation is too op
I just looked this up. Gonna start playing all crit and attack speed Amumu now.
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On June 21 2014 10:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 10:02 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 21 2014 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:
No it won't. Even when triforce used to slow on a % chance? That was much higher than the lower crit chance we see in lane, and that was determining factor for a lot of botlane trades. Especially since you had access to it at 1300~ gold with phage.
the problem is that 1 bad trade could be the end of that entire lane, in terms of whether or not you can retaliate. So yes, if we're talking about just last hitting, then yes, %chance evens out, but when we're talking about only needing 1 lane trade to completely snowball a lane, then, no, it doesn't go long enough to even it out. So the solution is to remove the thing only causing problems because lanes snowball to hard instead of working on the snowball issue? Did you even read what I posted like a page ago? Just need to get rid of early game crit
I think his point was that there are two distinct ways to go with early game %chance stuff: either you remove the randomness (that is: you remove crit) from early game, or you change the effects of said randomness (that is: you make the laneing way less snowballing) in the early game. Now what are the reasons for doing the first rather than the second option?
One answer would be the obvious "it is easier to do". Reducing snowballing is a way bigger task with less expectable outcome on other aspects of the game, so the easy road is to just remove early crit. (But of course reducing snowballing is possible. You could, for instance, reduce bounties and increase passive gold gain. Or get more and earlier catch-up mechanics into the game. I'm not going to argue that would be good, but it certainly would be possible)
Please try at least to understand and interpret charitably before you respond to anyone.
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On June 21 2014 10:17 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 10:13 nafta wrote:On June 21 2014 10:02 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 21 2014 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:
No it won't. Even when triforce used to slow on a % chance? That was much higher than the lower crit chance we see in lane, and that was determining factor for a lot of botlane trades. Especially since you had access to it at 1300~ gold with phage.
the problem is that 1 bad trade could be the end of that entire lane, in terms of whether or not you can retaliate. So yes, if we're talking about just last hitting, then yes, %chance evens out, but when we're talking about only needing 1 lane trade to completely snowball a lane, then, no, it doesn't go long enough to even it out. So the solution is to remove the thing only causing problems because lanes snowball to hard instead of working on the snowball issue? Unless you disable crit you can't really change that shit lol. Make early game crit inaccessible. Or make it's early game alternatives better. Like when BT was the best item to go first.
But that is kinda retarded too because there is no variety.
Don't think you can nerf snowballing even further.That would make the game wayyyy too boring.It is just like 2 days ago when I tried to 1v1 a corki as caitlyn and he crit me 2 times with 3 autos with tf and I didnt get a crit with 6 autos with ie.That shit is just frustrating.
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On June 21 2014 10:25 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 10:17 wei2coolman wrote:On June 21 2014 10:13 nafta wrote:On June 21 2014 10:02 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 21 2014 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:
No it won't. Even when triforce used to slow on a % chance? That was much higher than the lower crit chance we see in lane, and that was determining factor for a lot of botlane trades. Especially since you had access to it at 1300~ gold with phage.
the problem is that 1 bad trade could be the end of that entire lane, in terms of whether or not you can retaliate. So yes, if we're talking about just last hitting, then yes, %chance evens out, but when we're talking about only needing 1 lane trade to completely snowball a lane, then, no, it doesn't go long enough to even it out. So the solution is to remove the thing only causing problems because lanes snowball to hard instead of working on the snowball issue? Unless you disable crit you can't really change that shit lol. Make early game crit inaccessible. Or make it's early game alternatives better. Like when BT was the best item to go first. But that is kinda retarded too because there is no variety. Don't think you can nerf snowballing even further.That would make the game wayyyy too boring.It is just like 2 days ago when I tried to 1v1 a corki as caitlyn and he crit me 2 times with 3 autos with tf and I didnt get a crit with 6 autos with ie.That shit is just frustrating.
Could make alternatives like muramana, essence reaver, black cleaver, zephyr, and bt not suck to go first item.
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On June 21 2014 10:25 nafta wrote:
Don't think you can nerf snowballing even further.That would make the game wayyyy too boring.It is just like 2 days ago when I tried to 1v1 a corki as caitlyn and he crit me 2 times with 3 autos with tf and I didnt get a crit with 6 autos with ie.That shit is just frustrating.
I agree that would be bad (like I said, I'm not arguing for this). However, it still is a possibility, so if one argues for removing early game crit he/she has to give reasons why this is to be prefered over a further nerf to snowballing when that question comes up. It's not that difficult to come up with reasons against a snowballing nerf (gamelength, frustration for the players ahead, unclearity for new players, deceptiveness for spectators, just to name a few), but you can't (or rather should not) disregard the option without giving reasons.
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Because the solution to lane snowball is 2v1. There already exists a strategic solution to early game lane snowball.
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I don't quite understand your last post about the solution to lane snowball being 2v1.
Firstly, can you explain a little bit more in-depth what you are refering to?
Secondly, assuming you are correct and 2v1 is the solution to lane snowball: Isn't 2v1 then also the solution to early game crits? I don't quite see how you can hold at the same time that there is a solution to lane snowballing and that early game crit is a problem. Perhaps I miss something, so I'd be glad if you explain your line of thinking further.
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Adding more ways to come back into a lane or more ways to come to the aid of a lane that is struggling or even just swapping lanes/farmers within a lane. all should come before sweeping changes that negatively impact the experience of the game. The options are not: have very high lane snowballing or have a boring game. its not dichotomous. Look at dota, its often filled with more kills and fights than league, and it doesn't have the crazy sort of snowballing that league has in lane in professional play. now its due to tons of differences between the games, but it proves there is at least one way to balance a game without it being boring. why couldn't riot try to find a way of their own?
Now you could argue they can't be trusted with overhauling their system with a certain goal. since the majority of positive changes riot has had lately have all been seemingly accidental. but thats different than the conversation. I do wonder if they keep bandaiding instead of trying to fix the root cause of their problems how long until the whole thing breaks. or has it already and we're just being dangled enough carrot to keep on walking. I don't really know.
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On June 21 2014 10:49 Prog wrote:
I don't quite understand your last post about the solution to lane snowball being 2v1.
Firstly, can you explain a little bit more in-depth what you are refering to?
Secondly, assuming you are correct and 2v1 is the solution to lane snowball: Isn't 2v1 then also the solution to early game crits? I don't quite see how you can hold at the same time that there is a solution to lane snowballing and that early game crit is a problem. Perhaps I miss something, so I'd be glad if you explain your line of thinking further.
Early crit also problematic in 2v1. If you poke under tower and get the crit it can dissuade the solo laner from an entire wave worth of xp.
To be honest crit is fine the way it is outside of crit rune.
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Personally I don't feel Riot's balance team really does much good in their balancing in terms of increasing player enjoyment. They'll buff Khazix's ult from like 40% to 60% DR and then nerf him back down. They mostly just force changes in the meta which gets people to try new champions which can be fun.
It's the QoL team that does more good than harm. Teams are more balanced now that people can't duo with Plat and Bronze, items are easier to find with the search bar, and keybinds are easier to do. There's still a lot of low hanging fruit too like saving keybinds per champion and automatic loading of item sets, ping detectors and charts in the client, muting people in champ select, (not really an issue for me but..) reporting people in champ select. Smart pings are nice.
Like Morello might go through with it and add some more convoluted ways to make crit matter less when under 15% on Wednesday afternoons and only for runes, but does that improve my enjoyment of the game or how I would describe the quality of the game to others? No. He might add trinkets or add caps on the amount of health potions or reduce tp cooldown timers but overall it has no effect on my enjoyment of the game.
His primary job is to keep the game fresh and his secondary objective is to balance the game.
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On June 21 2014 09:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
Having Crit ain't everything not having it is. Exactly Yango TY.
But even laning phase is long enough that crit will even out.
No. Over a very long fight crit can even out. But laning phase is not a big 10 minute fight, its a series of smaller engagements. Sometimes they don't result in kills, but the engagements are always small. A crit in laning phase is not evened out because it immediately shifts the power to benefit the other laner, leading to kills, or zoning, or forcing backs at poor times. All of these things have lasting effects because gold and xp advantages accrue which means that the effect of the crit does not even out. And it especially does not even out in laning phase.
Professional games were won and lost on who got the first phage proc.
On June 21 2014 09:21 TheYango wrote:
While I don't agree with Xizor that crit is a big factor in making the game better, I don't thing Riot should make this change.
Even if removing crit improves the game somehow, the actual difference would be so minimal that the fact that the live balance team has to spend some non-trivial amount of time trying to come up with some "solution" to this problem is not worth it in my eyes. There are other issues with the game (hell, you Goumindong, brought some of them up yourself yesterday) that would have far greater impact on the game. Randomness of crit simply doesn't matter enough to be worth Riot wasting time on until bigger issues are sorted out.
Crit is just a pet peeve of mine about league. Its one of the last vestiges of really bad design left over from when riot didn't really know what they were doing with this game.
On June 21 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:all should come before sweeping changes that negatively impact the experience of the game.
A lack of crit would positively impact my experience in the game. Just like the lack of a dodge stat does and just like the lack of RNG slows on phage/triforce. And every damned time these things were discussed people had the same arguments that you've had.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 21 2014 11:14 obesechicken13 wrote:
It's the QoL team that does more good than harm. Teams are more balanced now that people can't duo with Plat and Bronze, items are easier to find with the search bar, and keybinds are easier to do. There's still a lot of low hanging fruit too like saving keybinds per champion and automatic loading of item sets, ping detectors and charts in the client, muting people in champ select, (not really an issue for me but..) reporting people in champ select. Smart pings are nice.
Most of those things aren't bottlenecked at the design stage--they're limited by development/implementation.
What Live Balance does is 95% design--from a development/implementation standpoint most of what they do is changing a few numbers or adding some new data.
On June 21 2014 11:19 Goumindong wrote:
Crit is just a pet peeve of mine about league. Its one of the last vestiges of really bad design left over from when riot didn't really know what they were doing with this game.
That implies that they know what they're doing with the game now, lol.
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EPT
