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On June 21 2014 08:37 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:24 RagequitBM wrote:
I'm gonna have to hop on the Team Crit wagon here. I think it adds a lot of fun to the game. Kinda like miss chance in broodwar. So hopefully they keep it.
Maybe the 1% crit at level 1 is kinda silly though. exactly, brood war warcraft 3 and dota aren't hurt by random chance effects, they are enhanced: Tell me this would be a better clip without crits, russian commentators for hype. + Show Spoiler +Its like the heart of the cards mean nothing to you guys.
I stopped watching at around 20 seconds. I have no idea what's going on in any of this and have 0 ways to identify crits. This is a really poor example.
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Netherlands21351 Posts
On June 21 2014 08:37 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:24 RagequitBM wrote:
I'm gonna have to hop on the Team Crit wagon here. I think it adds a lot of fun to the game. Kinda like miss chance in broodwar. So hopefully they keep it.
Maybe the 1% crit at level 1 is kinda silly though. exactly, brood war warcraft 3 and dota aren't hurt by random chance effects, they are enhanced: Tell me this would be a better clip without crits, russian commentators for hype. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNumAj5S68 Its like the heart of the cards mean nothing to you guys.
Your not even talking about the same game anymore ffs.
Classic Xizor is classic...
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The videos prove absolutely nothing.
The statement you're making is that there's no play that is interesting that doesn't rely on critical strikes, since everything else is 100% predictable by humans at the outset of the game.
It's utterly absurd.
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On June 21 2014 08:46 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:41 Goumindong wrote:On June 21 2014 08:39 wei2coolman wrote:On June 21 2014 07:49 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg, they really need to give Phage more build paths. F mallet is crying in a corner somewhere. Mallet used to have such a great build path. Then Riot took a squat, and dropped a giant fucking poop on fmallet.
The reason I am sad about new Phage always going to Trinity, is because I want to try Iceborne Gauntlet + Phage on things like Quinn, Jax (maybe), Ezreal, Hecarim, etc. And then just chase people forever.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Gauntlet Hecarim is confirmed good.
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On June 21 2014 08:53 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:37 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 21 2014 08:24 RagequitBM wrote:
I'm gonna have to hop on the Team Crit wagon here. I think it adds a lot of fun to the game. Kinda like miss chance in broodwar. So hopefully they keep it.
Maybe the 1% crit at level 1 is kinda silly though. exactly, brood war warcraft 3 and dota aren't hurt by random chance effects, they are enhanced: Tell me this would be a better clip without crits, russian commentators for hype. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNumAj5S68 Its like the heart of the cards mean nothing to you guys. Your not even talking about the same game anymore ffs. Classic Xizor is classic...
That's a non-argument. Of course in a discussion about game-design other games with similar mechanics are relevant as examples.
The clip might not be the best, but that deciding crits can be used to create hype in broadcasts seems pretty obvious to me.
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On June 21 2014 08:55 bmn wrote:
The videos prove absolutely nothing.
The statement you're making is that there's no play that is interesting that doesn't rely on critical strikes, since everything else is 100% predictable by humans at the outset of the game.
It's utterly absurd.
if thats the statement i'm making, then the statement you are making is that any variance in play is bad, and league should be patched to remove any difference between champions or lanes.
On June 21 2014 08:51 Gahlo wrote:
I stopped watching at around 20 seconds. I have no idea what's going on in any of this and have 0 ways to identify crits. This is a really poor example.
The crits from Phantom assassin are the big spurts of blood shooting out. shes a character with an ultimate that is pasive and gives a 15% chance to crit with a high multiplier. she's also got a long range spell that does pure(true) damage but very little base damage, and slows, it also can crit with her ultimate.|
English commentary starting at 50s if you'd like
+ Show Spoiler +
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I just don't really see the negative in crit. Especially the way League has it implemented. If I get a lucky crit in lane, I laugh, and it's exciting. If I get crit in lane luckily, I don't get mad, I just shrug it off because I know how they're probably feeling. Getting 3 crits in a row during a teamfight is pretty hilarious too, and losing a fight because of that is pretty funny to me as well.
And of course Crit animations are really cool too for some champions.
Also Jayce is a really fun champion. I should play him more often... And that new mana auto attack item thing is sweet on him.
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I'm gonna go even further and say that the complete removal of RNG is killing the game. Yep, devil's advocate up here, I loved the old fear mechanic for example. Unpredictability makes the game more fun in certain aspects because random stuff going in your favour adds a greater feeling of "accomplishment" or surprise. It does not, and never will, end up with randomness from the RNG breaking the game and make skill obsolete. I don't even know why people obsess over that stuff, seriously..
That quote from doublelift (from the crit article) is also completely insane. If it's all about autoattacking eachother to death, sure, but that's never the case so his statement is completely invalid.
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On June 21 2014 08:41 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:39 wei2coolman wrote:On June 21 2014 07:49 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg, they really need to give Phage more build paths. F mallet is crying in a corner somewhere. Mallet used to have such a great build path.
Nah, it used to just be made from a phage and a giants belt which was still hella expensive and hard to save for. The recipe was like 800.
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On June 21 2014 09:10 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:55 bmn wrote:
The videos prove absolutely nothing.
The statement you're making is that there's no play that is interesting that doesn't rely on critical strikes, since everything else is 100% predictable by humans at the outset of the game.
It's utterly absurd. if thats the statement i'm making, then the statement you are making is that any variance in play is bad, and league should be patched to remove any difference between champions or lanes.
Nope. I'm refuting your statement. I'm claiming that removing it won't make the game absolutely predictable from the start, which is what you've claimed repeatedly.
You're making a very, very strong statement. I'm saying it's completely wrong. Refuting a very strong claim isn't a strong claim in itself.
Maybe you find crit interesting, maybe you don't, that's up to you. To claim that nobody would watch the game because everyone has magical superpowers to predict every other player's action perfectly well for the next 40 minutes, on the other hand, is a claim I'll not hesitate to point out as being utterly ridiculous.
And if your claim doesn't hold, then the follow-up "so if we remove crit there's absolutely nothing interesting about the watching a game" no longer holds either. And that's exactly my point.
Whether you in particular would find the game more or less interesting is not something I can (or want to) reason about.
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United States47024 Posts
While I don't agree with Xizor that crit is a big factor in making the game better, I don't thing Riot should make this change.
Even if removing crit improves the game somehow, the actual difference would be so minimal that the fact that the live balance team has to spend some non-trivial amount of time trying to come up with some "solution" to this problem is not worth it in my eyes. There are other issues with the game (hell, you Goumindong, brought some of them up yourself yesterday) that would have far greater impact on the game. Randomness of crit simply doesn't matter enough to be worth Riot wasting time on until bigger issues are sorted out.
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On June 21 2014 09:21 TheYango wrote:
While I don't agree with Xizor that crit is a big factor in making the game better, I don't thing Riot should make this change.
Even if removing crit improves the game somehow, the actual difference would be so minimal that the fact that the live balance team has to spend some non-trivial amount of time trying to come up with some "solution" to this problem is not worth it in my eyes. There are other issues with the game (hell, you Goumindong, brought some of them up yourself yesterday) that would have far greater impact on the game. Randomness of crit simply doesn't matter enough to be worth Riot wasting time on until bigger issues are sorted out.
I think its a factor in making the game better, and that there is no reason to remove even more things from the game that make it exciting.
On June 21 2014 09:19 bmn wrote:
Nope. I'm refuting your statement. I'm claiming that removing it won't make the game absolutely predictable from the start, which is what you've claimed repeatedly.
You're making a very, very strong statement. I'm saying it's completely wrong. Refuting a very strong claim isn't a strong claim in itself.
Maybe you find crit interesting, maybe you don't, that's up to you. To claim that nobody would watch the game because everyone has magical superpowers to predict every other player's action perfectly well for the next 40 minutes, on the other hand, is a claim I'll not hesitate to point out as being utterly ridiculous.
And if your claim doesn't hold, then the follow-up "so if we remove crit there's absolutely nothing interesting about the watching a game" no longer holds either. And that's exactly my point.
Whether you in particular would find the game more or less interesting is not something I can (or want to) reason about.
except im not. thats what YOU are saying that i said. not what i did say. i figured while we were making up things eachother was saying i might as well have a go.
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On June 21 2014 08:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:47 Alaric wrote:
So, Nidalee gets all the post-6 obnoxiousness with Pounce and strong all-ins and her cougar kit to complement the auto harass, without any drawbacks when played top.
... yeah, I'm just gonna permaban that if I can. She was already boring to deal with as a jungler (even moreso in the current meta where there's usually not enough burst to kill her), but with the "rework" and cougar form level 1 she's just the kind of obnoxious shit who as long as she's not UP (since she's a lane bully now, her "balanced" state would be just as annoying) it's just no fun having that in my games. And a game's supposed to be fun. I'm just salty that her Cougar form Q fucking hits like a truck loaded with explosives.
Iirc it's weaker than pre-changes if you don't mark the target. Remember that it went up to 300+300% AD physical damage. Until you got a bunch of armour (or all game long if you remained a squishy), even an AP Nidalee would smash your head in if you were low.
Now she does less damage until something like 75 + 50% AD is less than 60% AP, so... something like 200 AP?
On the other hand the fact that she can now all-in you at level 3 a la Jayce if she hits a javelin or trap more than make up for it.
Her ability to Pounce out of ganks with a 3s cd on her ult making her switching to human form at the wrong time an awful lot less punishing (I remember basing my winning the Irelia/Nidalee match-up on exploiting the ult cd post-6) is really what annoys me the most though since I usually jungle.
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On June 21 2014 09:24 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 09:21 TheYango wrote:
While I don't agree with Xizor that crit is a big factor in making the game better, I don't thing Riot should make this change.
Even if removing crit improves the game somehow, the actual difference would be so minimal that the fact that the live balance team has to spend some non-trivial amount of time trying to come up with some "solution" to this problem is not worth it in my eyes. There are other issues with the game (hell, you Goumindong, brought some of them up yourself yesterday) that would have far greater impact on the game. Randomness of crit simply doesn't matter enough to be worth Riot wasting time on until bigger issues are sorted out. I think its a factor in making the game better, and that there is no reason to remove even more things from the game that make it exciting. Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 09:19 bmn wrote:
Nope. I'm refuting your statement. I'm claiming that removing it won't make the game absolutely predictable from the start, which is what you've claimed repeatedly.
You're making a very, very strong statement. I'm saying it's completely wrong. Refuting a very strong claim isn't a strong claim in itself.
Maybe you find crit interesting, maybe you don't, that's up to you. To claim that nobody would watch the game because everyone has magical superpowers to predict every other player's action perfectly well for the next 40 minutes, on the other hand, is a claim I'll not hesitate to point out as being utterly ridiculous.
And if your claim doesn't hold, then the follow-up "so if we remove crit there's absolutely nothing interesting about the watching a game" no longer holds either. And that's exactly my point.
Whether you in particular would find the game more or less interesting is not something I can (or want to) reason about.
except im not. thats what YOU are saying that i said. not what i did say. i figured while we were making up things eachother was saying i might as well have a go.
It's exactly what your posts implied.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22407579 -- the entire second paragraph.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22407239 -- "no chance"
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22407142 -- "if the better team always wins, then who wins or loses is entirely decided by the matchmaking and not by the players"
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United States47024 Posts
I watched the clip, and I think I get what Xizor is trying to point out with the clip.
Essentially, none of the crits in that clip were what could be considered "lucky" really. Over a 3-4 minute period, The PA got crits at about an average rate, and the entire engagement would have played out very similarly even if rather than having crit, there was simply a % multiplier on damage. The gameplay over a long engagement would have been relatively similar.
How crit improves the experience is the visceral feeling toward a large burst of damage, and the inherent tension of waiting for a random occurrence. It's more "exciting" to see a ton of HP drop, and a big red number. Seeing consistent, reliable damage in moderate increments, is simply less exciting than seeing a big HP drop from a crit.
The problem is that where this applies to League, I don't think you can expect a fight to play out in such a way where you have a long engagement where crit "evens out". Fights don't play out like that in League because survivability tends to be very lopsided (very tanky or very squishy champs), and because of that fights actually do end up in situations where having that crit or not does change the outcome--either because the ADC is very squishy or is hitting a very squishy target where that extra burst of damage changes the actual result.
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On June 21 2014 09:29 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:49 wei2coolman wrote:On June 21 2014 08:47 Alaric wrote:
So, Nidalee gets all the post-6 obnoxiousness with Pounce and strong all-ins and her cougar kit to complement the auto harass, without any drawbacks when played top.
... yeah, I'm just gonna permaban that if I can. She was already boring to deal with as a jungler (even moreso in the current meta where there's usually not enough burst to kill her), but with the "rework" and cougar form level 1 she's just the kind of obnoxious shit who as long as she's not UP (since she's a lane bully now, her "balanced" state would be just as annoying) it's just no fun having that in my games. And a game's supposed to be fun. I'm just salty that her Cougar form Q fucking hits like a truck loaded with explosives. Iirc it's weaker than pre-changes if you don't mark the target. Remember that it went up to 300+300% AD physical damage. Until you got a bunch of armour (or all game long if you remained a squishy), even an AP Nidalee would smash your head in if you were low. Now she does less damage until something like 75 + 50% AD is less than 60% AP, so... something like 200 AP? On the other hand the fact that she can now all-in you at level 3 a la Jayce if she hits a javelin or trap more than make up for it. Her ability to Pounce out of ganks with a 3s cd on her ult making her switching to human form at the wrong time an awful lot less punishing (I remember basing my winning the Irelia/Nidalee match-up on exploiting the ult cd post-6) is really what annoys me the most though since I usually jungle.
The thing is, if she marks you, she fucking chunks the shit out of you with it. And she has access to this at level 1.
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On June 21 2014 09:30 TheYango wrote:
I watched the clip, and I think I get what Xizor is trying to point out with the clip.
Essentially, none of the crits in that clip were what could be considered "lucky" really. Over a 3-4 minute period, The PA got crits at about an average rate, and the entire engagement would have played out very similarly even if rather than having crit, there was simply a % multiplier on damage. The gameplay over a long engagement would have been relatively similar.
How crit improves the experience is the visceral feeling toward a large burst of damage, and the inherent tension of waiting for a random occurrence. It's more "exciting" to see a ton of HP drop, and a big red number. Seeing consistent, reliable damage in moderate increments, is simply less exciting than seeing a big HP drop from a crit.
The problem is that where this applies to League, I don't think you can expect a fight to play out in such a way where you have a long engagement where crit "evens out". Fights don't play out like that in League because survivability tends to be very lopsided (very tanky or very squishy champs), and because of that fights actually do end up in situations where having that crit or not does change the outcome--either because the ADC is very squishy or is hitting a very squishy target where that extra burst of damage changes the actual result.
Having Crit ain't everything not having it is. Exactly Yango TY.
But even laning phase is long enough that crit will even out.
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On June 21 2014 09:11 RagequitBM wrote:
I just don't really see the negative in crit. Especially the way League has it implemented. If I get a lucky crit in lane, I laugh, and it's exciting. If I get crit in lane luckily, I don't get mad, I just shrug it off because I know how they're probably feeling. Getting 3 crits in a row during a teamfight is pretty hilarious too, and losing a fight because of that is pretty funny to me as well.
And of course Crit animations are really cool too for some champions.
Also Jayce is a really fun champion. I should play him more often... And that new mana auto attack item thing is sweet on him.
The Amumu crit animation is too op
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EPT
