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On June 21 2014 07:48 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 07:45 Goumindong wrote:
Yea, god forbid the better team win.
They removed dodge as a stat for the same reason
they removed phage procs as an effect for the same reason.
They should remove crit for the same reason Yeah because everyone wants the better team to win always. this way we don't need to turn on LCS we can just look at the teams and know who will win. the better team winning a significant percentage is good and desires, the better team winnign always. thats not something fun to watch and its not something that should be available to solo queue style games. if the better team always wins, then who wins or loses is entirely decided by the matchmaking and not by the players.
are you still defending crit as a luck based stat? anyways i dont agree at all with what you say. the variance in player performance is very high not because of luck based stats but because there are a ton of unknowns in this game allready and it doesnt have to be fog of war it can be your teammate wanting something completely different at a given situation. there is no matchmaking allways wins thing in this game. besides that you get matched against equal players most of the times and even if not its enterily possible for a statistically better team to screw up a bunch of games against a statistically weaker one.
actually iam not even sure if your trolling us right now lol
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On June 21 2014 07:53 clickrush wrote:
are you still defending crit as a luck based stat? anyways i dont agree at all with what you say. the variance in player performance is very high not because of luck based stats but because there are a ton of unknowns in this game allready and it doesnt have to be fog of war it can be your teammate wanting something completely different at a given situation. there is no matchmaking allways wins thing in this game. besides that you get matched against equal players most of the times and even if not its enterily possible for a statistically better team to screw up a bunch of games against a statistically weaker one.
actually iam not even sure if your trolling us right now lol
I'd rather be entertained at how lucky a player got than bored at how there was no chance to come back in lane.
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Because Dignitos and CLG didn't just lose today to Complexity and Curse for reasons that had nothing to do with crit.
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On June 21 2014 07:49 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg, they really need to give Phage more build paths.
I agree, the passive is really neat generally but especially potent for kiting. As for the crit conversation, the only time it is frustrating is when two abilities that empower the auto line up by chance. Nasus will hit you 10 times but the one time he hits q he also crits or cait will crit a headshot at level 1 because of her 1% from runes. That said these events are rare enough that the hype they create is probably worth giving up a random 200 gold one in 100 games. There are a million things I would fix before crit but I know that may just be me.
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There are situation in which player performance plays very little role and crit is the only way to make this situation somewhat unpredictable. For the sake of argument assume a situation in which the adc gets cought 1v1 and wins the fight if he crits 3 times, while he loses if he crits only 1 or 2 times. Without crit the situation would play out the same every single time. There would be no emotional investment because everyone knows how the fight will go. On the other hand if there is crit you have a heavy emotional reaction purely because of luck factors. One player will be happy and pumped because he won with the knowledge that he could have lost the fight very easily. The other one has a moment of anger because he lost with the knowledge that he could have won. Certainly both will be adressed at an emotional level that creates excitement.
That's even more true from a spectator perspective. A well versed league spectator would know how such a trade will end without crit. With crit however, he will bite his nails hoping that his favorite team comes out ahead. The situation is completely different emotionally.
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On June 20 2014 16:42 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 15:47 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Hso4FO2.png) these bans are real, this game should be fun QUINNNNNNNNNNNN LET HER FREEEEEEE
On June 20 2014 21:37 Slusher wrote:damn that adc ban game was like 5 hours ago, why no update 
sorry, went to bed after it
It ended up being our Tristana vs their Quinn, but the game went to shit when their Riven went like 12-1 in the first few minutes and was literally unkillable 5v1.
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On June 21 2014 08:04 Prog wrote:
There are situation in which player performance plays very little role and crit is the only way to make this situation somewhat unpredictable. For the sake of argument assume a situation in which the adc gets cought 1v1 and wins the fight if he crits 3 times, while he loses if he crits only 1 or 2 times. Without crit the situation would play out the same every single time. There would be no emotional investment because everyone knows how the fight will go. On the other hand if there is crit you have a heavy emotional reaction purely because of luck factors. One player will be happy and pumped because he won with the knowledge that he could have lost the fight very easily. The other one has a moment of anger because he lost with the knowledge that he could have won. Certainly both will be adressed at an emotional level that creates excitement.
That's even more true from a spectator perspective. A well versed league spectator would know how such a trade will end without crit. With crit however, he will bite his nails hoping that his favorite team comes out ahead. The situation is completely different emotionally.
As of last patch, due to the fact that BotRK and BT were the common first items with IE being purchased third or fourth depending crit was not a significant part of most fights. Outplays happen all the fucking time. AD's all have abilities which can be dodged and kited and negated, even Ashe.
The idea that AD's cant outplay each other without crit (and somehow that crit is good because it means that "hey randomness in who wins!") is dumb
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On June 21 2014 08:04 Prog wrote:
There are situation in which player performance plays very little role and crit is the only way to make this situation somewhat unpredictable. For the sake of argument assume a situation in which the adc gets cought 1v1 and wins the fight if he crits 3 times, while he loses if he crits only 1 or 2 times. Without crit the situation would play out the same every single time. There would be no emotional investment because everyone knows how the fight will go. On the other hand if there is crit you have a heavy emotional reaction purely because of luck factors. One player will be happy and pumped because he won with the knowledge that he could have lost the fight very easily. The other one has a moment of anger because he lost with the knowledge that he could have won. Certainly both will be adressed at an emotional level that creates excitement.
That's even more true from a spectator perspective. A well versed league spectator would know how such a trade will end without crit. With crit however, he will bite his nails hoping that his favorite team comes out ahead. The situation is completely different emotionally.
You're wrong. The situation wouldn't play out the same every single time; that's not how people work.
Besides, if crit is implemented the way I suspect it is (seed fixed at one point in the game), if the players do the same thing, the critical strikes would trigger at exactly the same times every time too.
It doesn't matter whether it's deterministic and repeatable or not, all you actually care about is whether it was predictable. The only reason it's not predictable is because you lack information about the internal state of the RNG, not because it depends on entropy sources from outside the game.
And hey, guess what! You also lack information to predict exactly how the players in the 1v1 will act.
And that's exactly why it's interesting to watch them play it. It has nothing to do with crit being "more random" than player behavior.
A well-versed league spectator would generally not know how such a trade will end. He has a good idea of how it'll probably end if it goes just as he plans, but that's exactly where a player's actions come into play -- a clever juke, well-timed flash, etc. can completely reverse the outcome, and that's why "clutch plays" are fun to watch.
If it really were about crit, we'd all be able to predict exactly how any fight goes if nobody involved has crit runes/items -- nobody would care about typical mid lane or top-lane matchups.
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Riot's already shown us that gold efficient but not slot efficient mid game items are not what they want, so there are little comeback mechanics left in the game and you want to yank out another one. variability is exciting. stare a wall for an hour or a TV, tell me which one is more exciting and variable and which one is a wall.
Its not exactly like there are things possible in league that aren't physically possible for a human to do, like there is in physical sports, so luck can't take a factor like it can there. its possible to know mathematically exactly where the ball will go and where it'll be, and the force and timing needed to put you in the proper space, but that kind of thing is beyond a human's ability to do on the fly perfectly every time, so luck is involved there. league doesn't have those concepts out of reach of the players.
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On June 21 2014 08:13 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:04 Prog wrote:
There are situation in which player performance plays very little role and crit is the only way to make this situation somewhat unpredictable. For the sake of argument assume a situation in which the adc gets cought 1v1 and wins the fight if he crits 3 times, while he loses if he crits only 1 or 2 times. Without crit the situation would play out the same every single time. There would be no emotional investment because everyone knows how the fight will go. On the other hand if there is crit you have a heavy emotional reaction purely because of luck factors. One player will be happy and pumped because he won with the knowledge that he could have lost the fight very easily. The other one has a moment of anger because he lost with the knowledge that he could have won. Certainly both will be adressed at an emotional level that creates excitement.
That's even more true from a spectator perspective. A well versed league spectator would know how such a trade will end without crit. With crit however, he will bite his nails hoping that his favorite team comes out ahead. The situation is completely different emotionally. As of last patch, due to the fact that BotRK and BT were the common first items with IE being purchased third or fourth depending crit was not a significant part of most fights. Outplays happen all the fucking time. AD's all have abilities which can be dodged and kited and negated, even Ashe. The idea that AD's cant outplay each other without crit (and somehow that crit is good because it means that "hey randomness in who wins!") is dumb
I was thinking more of situations like Varus without ultimate vs Garen. Show me the outplay potential there.
Also I think your way of discussing things is very annoying. Just because someone disagrees with your point of view their points are not instantly "dumb" and it also does not exempt you from giving reasons for such a blanket statement. What you should do is try to put the point you disagree with in a form as strong as possible and then refute it, if possible. That's how fruitful discussions work. Thank you.
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On June 21 2014 08:18 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:04 Prog wrote:
There are situation in which player performance plays very little role and crit is the only way to make this situation somewhat unpredictable. For the sake of argument assume a situation in which the adc gets cought 1v1 and wins the fight if he crits 3 times, while he loses if he crits only 1 or 2 times. Without crit the situation would play out the same every single time. There would be no emotional investment because everyone knows how the fight will go. On the other hand if there is crit you have a heavy emotional reaction purely because of luck factors. One player will be happy and pumped because he won with the knowledge that he could have lost the fight very easily. The other one has a moment of anger because he lost with the knowledge that he could have won. Certainly both will be adressed at an emotional level that creates excitement.
That's even more true from a spectator perspective. A well versed league spectator would know how such a trade will end without crit. With crit however, he will bite his nails hoping that his favorite team comes out ahead. The situation is completely different emotionally. You're wrong. The situation wouldn't play out the same every single time; that's not how people work. Besides, if crit is implemented the way I suspect it is (seed fixed at one point in the game), if the players do the same thing, the critical strikes would trigger at exactly the same times every time too. It doesn't matter whether it's deterministic and repeatable or not, all you actually care about is whether it was predictable. The only reason it's not predictable is because you lack information about the internal state of the RNG, not because it depends on entropy sources from outside the game. And hey, guess what! You also lack information to predict exactly how the players in the 1v1 will act. And that's exactly why it's interesting to watch them play it. It has nothing to do with crit being "more random" than player behavior. A well-versed league spectator would generally not know how such a trade will end. He has a good idea of how it'll probably end if it goes just as he plans, but that's exactly where a player's actions come into play -- a clever juke, well-timed flash, etc. can completely reverse the outcome, and that's why "clutch plays" are fun to watch. If it really were about crit, we'd all be able to predict exactly how any fight goes if nobody involved has crit runes/items -- nobody would care about typical mid lane or top-lane matchups.
The way crit works is that the game changes the probability of your crits based upon how often you've crit or not crit and how much crit you have. This way it's not exactly "you crit 1 in 4 shots" yet still protects players from buying a ton of crit and never critting due to bad luck or buy a little crit and going on critting sprees because they got lucky.
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I'm gonna have to hop on the Team Crit wagon here. I think it adds a lot of fun to the game. Kinda like miss chance in broodwar. So hopefully they keep it.
Maybe the 1% crit at level 1 is kinda silly though.
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On June 21 2014 08:24 RagequitBM wrote:
I'm gonna have to hop on the Team Crit wagon here. I think it adds a lot of fun to the game. Kinda like miss chance in broodwar. So hopefully they keep it.
Maybe the 1% crit at level 1 is kinda silly though.
In brood war, more or less, the law of large numbers applies. Variance after 30 trials is actually pretty low. Which means 3 attacks from 10 enemies. It is possible that you get all of your 10 first attacks to hit, and this swings a fight because of damage persistence. As groups get larger this likelihood is reduced further and the LLN applies faster.
In league this is not the case, over the course of a team fight someone with crit might attack 30 times total, and the order in which they crit has significant persistence effect because the number of units is so small.
Sometimes games can have high amounts of variability. MtG is a good example. But MtG is about dealing with that randomness (both in playing and in building decks), the ability to do that defines much of the skill distribution. But league isn't about dealing with randomness its about out playing the other team.
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On June 21 2014 08:20 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot's already shown us that gold efficient but not slot efficient mid game items are not what they want, so there are little comeback mechanics left in the game and you want to yank out another one. variability is exciting. stare a wall for an hour or a TV, tell me which one is more exciting and variable and which one is a wall.
Its not exactly like there are things possible in league that aren't physically possible for a human to do, like there is in physical sports, so luck can't take a factor like it can there. its possible to know mathematically exactly where the ball will go and where it'll be, and the force and timing needed to put you in the proper space, but that kind of thing is beyond a human's ability to do on the fly perfectly every time, so luck is involved there. league doesn't have those concepts out of reach of the players.
Predicting your opponent's actions accurately and exactly (including timing) is beyond a human's ability to do on the fly perfectly every time, so luck is involved there.
That's the whole reason the game is interesting. It has nothing to do with crit. If it were because of crit, nobody would ever need to watch any lane that doesn't have critical chance, because the moment the map is loaded you already successfully predicted what will happen exactly until the moment where the first attack with a non-zero critical strike % affects those lanes.
I can't fathom how this wouldn't sound utterly ridiculous to anyone in their right mind. It makes no sense at all.
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On June 21 2014 08:24 RagequitBM wrote:
I'm gonna have to hop on the Team Crit wagon here. I think it adds a lot of fun to the game. Kinda like miss chance in broodwar. So hopefully they keep it.
Maybe the 1% crit at level 1 is kinda silly though.
exactly, brood war warcraft 3 and dota aren't hurt by random chance effects, they are enhanced:
Tell me this would be a better clip without crits, russian commentators for hype.
+ Show Spoiler +
Its like the heart of the cards mean nothing to you guys.
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On June 21 2014 07:49 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg, they really need to give Phage more build paths.
F mallet is crying in a corner somewhere.
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On June 21 2014 08:39 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 07:49 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg, they really need to give Phage more build paths. F mallet is crying in a corner somewhere.
Mallet used to have such a great build path.
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On June 21 2014 08:41 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:39 wei2coolman wrote:On June 21 2014 07:49 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg, they really need to give Phage more build paths. F mallet is crying in a corner somewhere. Mallet used to have such a great build path.
Then Riot took a squat, and dropped a giant fucking poop on fmallet.
Also, crit discussion is interesting. Largely I think crit as of right now works pretty damn well (outside of Yasuo). I think removing crit runes would probably be the best way for them to deal with majority of crit issues. Because they don't seem to mind it in large numbers, nor do they seem to have an issue with low amounts of crit outside of laning phase. Though this does seem to be something that DL was mentioning with new ADC itemization for 4.10, where ADC's are rewarded to get IE first now, and depending on game flow, can have stupid amounts of impact early on in lane. (where you have the cloak after BF sword or something of that sort), where this starts to be problematic in laning phase.
Also, I've been advocating Riot put in an item that gives insane crit chance (like 60-70%) with no AS, with maybe reduced crit damage, as a cool item choice variety.
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So, Nidalee gets all the post-6 obnoxiousness with Pounce and strong all-ins and her cougar kit to complement the auto harass, without any drawbacks when played top.
... yeah, I'm just gonna permaban that if I can. She was already boring to deal with as a jungler (even moreso in the current meta where there's usually not enough burst to kill her), but with the "rework" and cougar form level 1 she's just the kind of obnoxious shit who as long as she's not UP (since she's a lane bully now, her "balanced" state would be just as annoying) it's just no fun having that in my games. And a game's supposed to be fun.
(Also I got 4 occurrences in 2 games as Vi where I froze in the middle of an auto animation and stood there doing nothing. Wth, did they break something else in her? Two of these where the killing blow and I just stood still for 1+ second without any cc involved, nor pressing of the S key. How does that happen. ._.)
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On June 21 2014 08:47 Alaric wrote:
So, Nidalee gets all the post-6 obnoxiousness with Pounce and strong all-ins and her cougar kit to complement the auto harass, without any drawbacks when played top.
... yeah, I'm just gonna permaban that if I can. She was already boring to deal with as a jungler (even moreso in the current meta where there's usually not enough burst to kill her), but with the "rework" and cougar form level 1 she's just the kind of obnoxious shit who as long as she's not UP (since she's a lane bully now, her "balanced" state would be just as annoying) it's just no fun having that in my games. And a game's supposed to be fun.
I'm just salty that her Cougar form Q fucking hits like a truck loaded with explosives.
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EPT
