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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things.
Enough is enough. Let's move along now.
-NeoIllusions |
On June 11 2014 07:41 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:35 turdburgler wrote:
8% life steal isnt nothing, if you both have 100 ad and shoot each other once the pick axe user has only dealt roughly 7 more damage to you, you need to shoot a minion once to gain that back. The better comparison would be something like 80 AD to 95 or 100 to 115. Not sure how many times you'd have to shoot the minion cuz of armor.
minions and their 5 armor, too op. the point is just that people are acting like 1, life steal is meaningless, and 2. a pick axe makes you 1 shot people.
if that was the case people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont.
because pick axes dont win lanes.
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All I care about is that with these changes I can go IE first on Ashe without people judging my build every single fucking game.
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I also think you guys are undervaluing lifesteal as a combat stat.
Just using basic common sense, crit increases your overall damage by 1%, while lifesteal heals you for 1% of your damage dealt. So 1% crit and 1% lifesteal is roughly equivalent in terms of combat value, but lifesteal also heals you between fights while crit does not.
I'm not saying that IE doesn't have more combat value than a BT does. What I'm saying is that it's not as big a difference as I think people are assuming.
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On June 11 2014 07:44 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:41 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:35 turdburgler wrote:
8% life steal isnt nothing, if you both have 100 ad and shoot each other once the pick axe user has only dealt roughly 7 more damage to you, you need to shoot a minion once to gain that back. The better comparison would be something like 80 AD to 95 or 100 to 115. Not sure how many times you'd have to shoot the minion cuz of armor. minions and their 5 armor, too op. the point is just that people are acting like 1, life steal is meaningless, and 2. a pick axe makes you 1 shot people. if that was the case people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. because pick axes dont win lanes.
Well that and champion armor.
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On June 11 2014 07:44 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:41 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:35 turdburgler wrote:
8% life steal isnt nothing, if you both have 100 ad and shoot each other once the pick axe user has only dealt roughly 7 more damage to you, you need to shoot a minion once to gain that back. The better comparison would be something like 80 AD to 95 or 100 to 115. Not sure how many times you'd have to shoot the minion cuz of armor. minions and their 5 armor, too op. the point is just that people are acting like 1, life steal is meaningless, and 2. a pick axe makes you 1 shot people. if that was the case people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. because pick axes dont win lanes.
Only reason people buy vamp instead of pickaxe is because you MUST go bt first.
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also note. Lifesteal scales with crit. When you get ie with the 2 dblade, your difference in lifesteal vs bt start is not that sognificant. Just something to keep in mind.
Turd. You're not accounting for the fact that dblade will now have ls. Thus making vampsceptre an even less attractive choice since you can get access to ls 360 gold earlier.
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On June 11 2014 07:44 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:41 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:35 turdburgler wrote:
8% life steal isnt nothing, if you both have 100 ad and shoot each other once the pick axe user has only dealt roughly 7 more damage to you, you need to shoot a minion once to gain that back. The better comparison would be something like 80 AD to 95 or 100 to 115. Not sure how many times you'd have to shoot the minion cuz of armor. minions and their 5 armor, too op. the point is just that people are acting like 1, life steal is meaningless, and 2. a pick axe makes you 1 shot people. if that was the case people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. because pick axes dont win lanes.
lol. People don't buy pick axes because BT or Bork is unequivocally the best first item. And since when did any build ever sell items (exception of Doran's). If an item is so strong that you can gain such a large lead then sell it and take a 50% gold loss that item is OP.
people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont.
Sorry, but this argument is shit and you know it.
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This start of game banter on TOO's stream with his telling the enemy top "Loco can't answer to you, he's chat restricted" and replying "so you too rage at other lanes" when enemy jungler tells him he learnt so much from him since s2. x')
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On June 11 2014 07:43 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:36 Ketara wrote:
Like, right now people open 1 dorans into vamp, and will often get a second dblade if they're behind. Assuming the current sustain from dblade is equivalent to even 2% lifesteal (conservative), that's 10-12% lifesteal.
You're jumping from that to an assumption that people will be able to lane fine on 1 dblade and LS runes, which is only 7.5% lifesteal. And even if you make that assumption, the guy who rushes vamp and takes AD runes instead has 8% lifesteal and is always 10 AD ahead in fights.
I think you guys are overestimating how easy it will be to open IE. The Riot post did say they anticipate people who rush IE having to go 3 dblades or 2 dblades and LS runes in order to make it happen. That's as much money as a Pickaxe, and consistent with how much early sustain people are currently buying in games. You and turdbungler are vastly overvaluing the strength of lifesteal, especially in an early game scenario. Until you have large amounts of lifesteal and AD, lifesteal is inferior to raw damage. You also ignored the math I did earlier. Disregarding runes and the first Doran's blade: When the guy building BT finishes his build, he has 80 AD and 15% lifesteal, plus the BT passive. That's 3500 gold. The guy building IE can have another Dblade, BF Sword, Pickaxe, and Cloak. That's 82 AD, 70 health, 3% lifesteal, and 15% crit for 3630 gold.
I'm not ignoring your math, I'm saying that you aren't thinking it through. You're making a number of assumptions here.
First, you're assuming that your IE guy is going to get to IE only ever having 3% lifesteal in his build. This is unrealistic given the amount of lifesteal people buy in current games.
You can say he's going to take LS runes, but if he does that, the BT guy has more AD. And even then he only has 7.5% which is considerably less than the amount of sustain people currently buy in games in order to survive laning phases.
Second, you're assuming that 15% crit is better than 15% lifesteal, which I think is a poor assumption. I think it is likely that they are roughly equivalent.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think it's as clear cut as you're making it out to be.
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On June 11 2014 07:51 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:44 turdburgler wrote:On June 11 2014 07:41 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:35 turdburgler wrote:
8% life steal isnt nothing, if you both have 100 ad and shoot each other once the pick axe user has only dealt roughly 7 more damage to you, you need to shoot a minion once to gain that back. The better comparison would be something like 80 AD to 95 or 100 to 115. Not sure how many times you'd have to shoot the minion cuz of armor. minions and their 5 armor, too op. the point is just that people are acting like 1, life steal is meaningless, and 2. a pick axe makes you 1 shot people. if that was the case people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. because pick axes dont win lanes. lol. People don't buy pick axes because BT or Bork is unequivocally the best first item. And since when did any build ever sell items (exception of Doran's). If an item is so strong that you can gain such a large lead then sell it and take a 50% gold loss that item is OP. Show nested quote +people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. Sorry, but this argument is shit and you know it.
why is it? you are stating that life steal is a worthless stat anyway at this point so in your mind theres no change to the situation when you back with ~1k gold anyway. and since you claim that people will start buying pick axes after the patch you must think that pick axes are better than vamp already.
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On June 11 2014 07:52 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:43 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:36 Ketara wrote:
Like, right now people open 1 dorans into vamp, and will often get a second dblade if they're behind. Assuming the current sustain from dblade is equivalent to even 2% lifesteal (conservative), that's 10-12% lifesteal.
You're jumping from that to an assumption that people will be able to lane fine on 1 dblade and LS runes, which is only 7.5% lifesteal. And even if you make that assumption, the guy who rushes vamp and takes AD runes instead has 8% lifesteal and is always 10 AD ahead in fights.
I think you guys are overestimating how easy it will be to open IE. The Riot post did say they anticipate people who rush IE having to go 3 dblades or 2 dblades and LS runes in order to make it happen. That's as much money as a Pickaxe, and consistent with how much early sustain people are currently buying in games. You and turdbungler are vastly overvaluing the strength of lifesteal, especially in an early game scenario. Until you have large amounts of lifesteal and AD, lifesteal is inferior to raw damage. You also ignored the math I did earlier. Disregarding runes and the first Doran's blade: When the guy building BT finishes his build, he has 80 AD and 15% lifesteal, plus the BT passive. That's 3500 gold. The guy building IE can have another Dblade, BF Sword, Pickaxe, and Cloak. That's 82 AD, 70 health, 3% lifesteal, and 15% crit for 3630 gold. I'm not ignoring your math, I'm saying that you aren't thinking it through. You're making a number of assumptions here. First, you're assuming that your IE guy is going to get to IE only ever having 3% lifesteal in his build. This is unrealistic given the amount of lifesteal people buy in current games. You can say he's going to take LS runes, but if he does that, the BT guy has more AD. And even then he only has 7.5% which is considerably less than the amount of sustain people currently buy in games in order to survive laning phases. Second, you're assuming that 15% crit is better than 15% lifesteal, which I think is a poor assumption. I think it is likely that they are roughly equivalent. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think it's as clear cut as you're making it out to be.
I never said 15% crit is better. I said it's more or less irrelevant. People only buy lifesteal right now because BT or Bork first item is the go-to build. That's because BT/Bork have the highest damage spikes of all AD item build options. NOT because lifesteal is so important.
On June 11 2014 07:53 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:51 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:44 turdburgler wrote:On June 11 2014 07:41 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:35 turdburgler wrote:
8% life steal isnt nothing, if you both have 100 ad and shoot each other once the pick axe user has only dealt roughly 7 more damage to you, you need to shoot a minion once to gain that back. The better comparison would be something like 80 AD to 95 or 100 to 115. Not sure how many times you'd have to shoot the minion cuz of armor. minions and their 5 armor, too op. the point is just that people are acting like 1, life steal is meaningless, and 2. a pick axe makes you 1 shot people. if that was the case people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. because pick axes dont win lanes. lol. People don't buy pick axes because BT or Bork is unequivocally the best first item. And since when did any build ever sell items (exception of Doran's). If an item is so strong that you can gain such a large lead then sell it and take a 50% gold loss that item is OP. people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. Sorry, but this argument is shit and you know it. why is it? you are stating that life steal is a worthless stat anyway at this point so in your mind theres no change to the situation when you back with ~1k gold anyway. and since you claim that people will start buying pick axes after the patch you must think that pick axes are better than vamp already.
It's a trash argument because if you sell pickaxe, you're losing 400+ gold. Intentionally digging a 400 gold hole for yourself is a stupid straw man.
Lifesteal (in early game) is an inferior combat stat compared to raw AD. It's useful for sustain. That's it. The question becomes whether or not you can lane without the sustain a vamp scepter affords you.
Pick axes are better for fighting than Vamp scepter even on the current patch. What you're ignoring is the fact that no one buys an early pick axe because it's a dead end item for 15~20 minutes. People buy Vamp over Pickaxe because you need Vamp for BT/Bork. Buying Pickaxe over Vamp on the current patch puts you in an 800 (or ~450) gold hole compared to the other AD carry when they finish their BT.
IE rush is bad on the current patch because even if you finish your IE at the same time as the BT buyer, you're 30 AD behind. Not because they have lifesteal and you don't.
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Like, the presumption here is that somebody who goes IE first will have to spend extra gold on sustain.
If they don't, IE first will be stronger just like how BT is currently stronger.
If they do, then the builds may be much more champion based, or much more situational, which I think is Riots intention.
If they get the numbers off I'm sure they'll tweak it in 4.11
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On June 11 2014 07:53 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:51 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:44 turdburgler wrote:On June 11 2014 07:41 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:35 turdburgler wrote:
8% life steal isnt nothing, if you both have 100 ad and shoot each other once the pick axe user has only dealt roughly 7 more damage to you, you need to shoot a minion once to gain that back. The better comparison would be something like 80 AD to 95 or 100 to 115. Not sure how many times you'd have to shoot the minion cuz of armor. minions and their 5 armor, too op. the point is just that people are acting like 1, life steal is meaningless, and 2. a pick axe makes you 1 shot people. if that was the case people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. because pick axes dont win lanes. lol. People don't buy pick axes because BT or Bork is unequivocally the best first item. And since when did any build ever sell items (exception of Doran's). If an item is so strong that you can gain such a large lead then sell it and take a 50% gold loss that item is OP. people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. Sorry, but this argument is shit and you know it. why is it? you are staying that life steal is a worthless stat anyway at this point so in your mind theres no change to the situation when you back with ~1k gold anyway. and since you claim that people will start buying pick axes after the patch you must think that pick axes are better than vamp already.
If BT or BotRK weren't such dominating power spikes, pick axe would be decent pick up vs a nerfed vamp sceptre. Strictly speaking.
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On June 11 2014 07:57 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:53 turdburgler wrote:On June 11 2014 07:51 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:44 turdburgler wrote:On June 11 2014 07:41 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:35 turdburgler wrote:
8% life steal isnt nothing, if you both have 100 ad and shoot each other once the pick axe user has only dealt roughly 7 more damage to you, you need to shoot a minion once to gain that back. The better comparison would be something like 80 AD to 95 or 100 to 115. Not sure how many times you'd have to shoot the minion cuz of armor. minions and their 5 armor, too op. the point is just that people are acting like 1, life steal is meaningless, and 2. a pick axe makes you 1 shot people. if that was the case people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. because pick axes dont win lanes. lol. People don't buy pick axes because BT or Bork is unequivocally the best first item. And since when did any build ever sell items (exception of Doran's). If an item is so strong that you can gain such a large lead then sell it and take a 50% gold loss that item is OP. people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. Sorry, but this argument is shit and you know it. why is it? you are staying that life steal is a worthless stat anyway at this point so in your mind theres no change to the situation when you back with ~1k gold anyway. and since you claim that people will start buying pick axes after the patch you must think that pick axes are better than vamp already. If BT or BotRK weren't such dominating power spikes, pick axe would be decent pick up vs a nerfed vamp sceptre. Strictly speaking.
but he was just arguing that he will be taking huge lane advantage with his pre finished IE build over someone sticking to blood thirster, we arent even talking about power spikes.
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On June 11 2014 08:01 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:57 wei2coolman wrote:On June 11 2014 07:53 turdburgler wrote:On June 11 2014 07:51 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:44 turdburgler wrote:On June 11 2014 07:41 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 11 2014 07:35 turdburgler wrote:
8% life steal isnt nothing, if you both have 100 ad and shoot each other once the pick axe user has only dealt roughly 7 more damage to you, you need to shoot a minion once to gain that back. The better comparison would be something like 80 AD to 95 or 100 to 115. Not sure how many times you'd have to shoot the minion cuz of armor. minions and their 5 armor, too op. the point is just that people are acting like 1, life steal is meaningless, and 2. a pick axe makes you 1 shot people. if that was the case people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. because pick axes dont win lanes. lol. People don't buy pick axes because BT or Bork is unequivocally the best first item. And since when did any build ever sell items (exception of Doran's). If an item is so strong that you can gain such a large lead then sell it and take a 50% gold loss that item is OP. people would be buying pick axes on live to dominate the lane and then using that lead to sell the pick axe and makes a blood thirster after, but they dont. Sorry, but this argument is shit and you know it. why is it? you are staying that life steal is a worthless stat anyway at this point so in your mind theres no change to the situation when you back with ~1k gold anyway. and since you claim that people will start buying pick axes after the patch you must think that pick axes are better than vamp already. If BT or BotRK weren't such dominating power spikes, pick axe would be decent pick up vs a nerfed vamp sceptre. Strictly speaking. but he was just arguing that he will be taking huge lane advantage with his pre finished IE build over someone sticking to blood thirster, we arent even talking about power spikes.
I never said that. Re-read pls.
I said that someone with their pre-finished IE build will have comparable stats to someone with a BT post-patch. The IE build will also have a larger impact/power spike 650 gold later.
I did say that someone with a BF+pickaxe will have an advantage over someone with only a BF+vamp scepter.
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On June 11 2014 07:36 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:30 wei2coolman wrote:
Nerf to vamp sceptre really does make it hard to justify going BT first. Also sorta worried that if long lane phase happens, that botlane trades are going to be determined by who crits first when IE timing hits. crits are theoretically buffered and the buffers are separate for minions vs champions, so if your lane opponent gets a lucky crit on their first shot you can go more aggressive because you know their next couple shots probably won't be crits maybe
Only if the fight is long enough to even out the duration. Given that the other guy has crit already, the expectation is "no, I probably will not crit before I die and so lose this fight". Once the enemy crits the optimal response is to run away, even if you don't expect him to crit again, even if you expect to crit before he does.
On June 11 2014 07:44 Sufficiency wrote:
All I care about is that with these changes I can go IE first on Ashe without people judging my build every single fucking game.
BF/Pickaxe to Shiv is probably the best build for Ashe on live right now. But IE first is a close second, especially if you're ahead. Ashe needs attack speed a lot more than most other carries (since she has no AS buff of any kind and very low ability AD scaling) in the early game, so the "efficient multipliciative path" which gets a bit of AD then cirt/attack speed (shiv proc!) is pretty decent on her.
On June 11 2014 07:55 Ryuu314 wrote:
IE rush is bad on the current patch because even if you finish your IE at the same time as the BT buyer, you're 30 AD behind. Not because they have lifesteal and you don't.
Actually its bad because you will never finish your IE anywhere close to when they finish their BT, so they will have the extra 30 AD, 630 gold, and the bonus gold from being able to pressure 600 gold earlier due to having a big item.
If you could finish your IE at the same time as the enemy finished their BT and you were like Ashe(or cait), you would be doing awesome.
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Caitlyn I think is one champion who, if played well, could rush IE on almost no lifesteal.
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On June 11 2014 08:27 Ketara wrote:
Caitlyn I think is one champion who, if played well, could rush IE on almost no lifesteal.
regen is good against poke. if you outpoke your opponent you often dont need as much regen. so cait, ashe etc. can rush ie instead of bt.
in the end it doesnt really matter that much though. in laneing the skill differents and situations have to be extremely equal and highlevel for the choice of bt vs ie to matter.
short teamfights favor ie rush more, poke wars favor sustain (alltough everyone just craps his skills over the creepwave anyways).
what really matters is how you lane, fight and react in certain situations, how you communicate and how you position. and not if you're doing a little more damage or have a little more regen.
it's funny how discussions about hard and interesting problems often don't even occur but everyone loves to rant about itemization, runes, masteries (and picks, which almost only matters in soloq because of the psychological impact percieved hardcounters and standard comps have).
I'am bored by the fact that lol kind of doesn't evolve in it's depth and things you can actually learn. Maybe that is because of riots design and balance choices. They change the game too fast, so the players cannot really learn a version in depth. Also there is still too much rpg-like stuff in it, like all those items and item stats which are all just parameters of the same kind.
Having over 100 champions, tons of items, combat stats and "mechanics" (which are mostly just weak steroids tied to a certain combat behaviour) doesn't make the game complex and interesting, but noisy and foggish. also the lack of strategic depth and variantion is alarming and comes mostly from them making everything kind of the same.
there are alot of aspects about this game that are interesting, but then there's all this other noisy, superficial, gimmicky crap which distract from them.
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EPT
