EPTOn June 11 2014 06:40 Ketara wrote:
Hopefully next they'll start mass banning smurf accounts.
Hopefully next they'll start mass banning smurf accounts.
There's nothing wrong with smurfing
[Patch 4.9] RIP Kha'Zix General Discussion - Page 73
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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things. Enough is enough. Let's move along now. -NeoIllusions | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
There's nothing wrong with smurfing | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On June 11 2014 06:49 nafta wrote: Why would starting IE require putting a pickaxe worth into sustain?That makes no sense.Also bt was more expensive in the last changes so that definitely makes it kinda bad(for adc). Well, I dunno. Do you think people will be able to go 1 dorans into IE without ever buying more dorans blades or a vamp scepter? One thing I think is worth noting is that the dorans blade changes makes starting longsword more viable. Dorans blade will be losing 1 AD and 10 HP, and losing some sustain in the very early game (level 1-5 or so), and all of this makes Longsword more attractive IF a longsword opening means you're going to rush a vamp scepter item. So people who want BT first may not need to buy any dorans blades at all, while IE first will probably require either two dorans or 1 and a vamp scepter, which costs as much as a Pickaxe. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:13 Ketara wrote: Well, I dunno. Do you think people will be able to go 1 dorans into IE without ever buying more dorans blades or a vamp scepter? Yup.You might need a 2nd doran in some situations at most but otherwise it is fine.Just gotta go back to ls runes. Biggest problem with bt is raw hp isn't that useful for champs who need to dive unlike a slow/speed boost and atk speed from bork.Bt might become the new defensive item to get after your core. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On June 11 2014 05:14 GhandiEAGLE wrote: It's absurdly fun, with deceptively powerful mid ganks. Just be careful you don't pick into the wrong team. Oh and make sure to take some AS marks. I think crit chance marks add more dps early and crit damage more late. Shiv and IE is 100% crit though so any crit chance is wasted on the full build. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35145 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:21 obesechicken13 wrote: I think crit chance marks add more dps early and crit damage more late. Shiv and IE is 100% crit though so any crit chance is wasted on the full build. I think it's 5 crit marks and 1 crit seal. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:19 nafta wrote: Yup.You might need a 2nd doran in some situations at most but otherwise it is fine.Just gotta go back to ls runes. Biggest problem with bt is raw hp isn't that useful for champs who need to dive unlike a slow/speed boost and atk speed from bork.Bt might become the new defensive item to get after your core. Okay so, presuming that you get LS runes instead of AD runes, start dblade instead of longsword, and since IE costs 300 more than BT even with its price increase, the BT rush still has about 30 more AD than the IE rush at the time said items are finished. On June 11 2014 07:23 Ryuu314 wrote: BT recipe cost is also going up to over 1k gold. If you sit on 1.5k gold for BF, then another 1k gold for BT, you're gonna have problems fighting the enemy when they only have to save up a large sum once. Ex. Say you both get the BF around the same time. The next 800~900 gold is spent on a Pickaxe for the IE builder and Vamp for the BT builder. The IE builder's going to win trades and skirmishes. Then ~700 gold later, the IE guy will have a cloak for a (marginal) dps increase while you're still sitting on 15 less AD. Lifesteal as a stat doesn't really help you win fights. Again, this is assuming that the guy going IE doesn't have to spend more gold on sustain items than the BT guy. If you assume he does, then when the IE guy finishes BF, the BT guy already has BF+Vamp. The BT guy finishes BT around the time the IE guy has BF+Pickaxe and is working towards finishing it. If you make that assumption, the IE route obviously looks stronger. I'm not convinced it's a correct assumption, we'll have to see. Maybe I'm wrong and IE first will be the only plausible build, who knows. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:23 Ryuu314 wrote: BT recipe cost is also going up to over 1k gold. If you sit on 1.5k gold for BF, then another 1k gold for BT, you're gonna have problems fighting the enemy when they only have to save up a large sum once. Ex. Say you both get the BF around the same time. The next 800~900 gold is spent on a Pickaxe for the IE builder and Vamp for the BT builder. The IE builder's going to win trades and skirmishes. Then ~700 gold later, the IE guy will have a cloak for a (marginal) dps increase while you're still sitting on 15 less AD. Lifesteal as a stat doesn't really help you win fights. except even after the first big item purchase the dps in bot lane is still low enough that you can reasonably farm under the tower without being dived, meaning that as long as you dont play like a retard and all in someone with full AD when you bought life steal, you are in a much stronger position. i dont know how you can sit there and say a pick axe is better than a vamp scepter with a straight face. imo build paths wont change very much, maybe IE as a second item will become a thing but beyond that the biggest change will be relative popularity. kogmaw is gonna be so OP if these changes go live. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:29 turdburgler wrote: except even after the first big item purchase the dps in bot lane is still low enough that you can reasonably farm under the tower without being dived, meaning that as long as you dont play like a retard and all in someone with full AD when you bought life steal, you are in a much stronger position. i dont know how you can sit there and say a pick axe is better than a vamp scepter with a straight face. You can if you have dominant lane position. The increased damage is more useful since Dblade comes with LS now, and the LS value for Vamp sceptre dropped significantly. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:23 Ketara wrote: Okay so, presuming that you get LS runes instead of AD runes, start dblade instead of longsword, and since IE costs 300 more than BT even with its price increase, the BT rush still has about 30 more AD than the IE rush at the time said items are finished. Again, this is assuming that the guy going IE doesn't have to spend more gold on sustain items than the BT guy. If you assume he does, then when the IE guy finishes BF, the BT guy already has BF+Vamp. The BT guy finishes BT around the time the IE guy has the 3 IE components but hasn't put them together yet. If you make that assumption, the IE route obviously looks stronger. I'm not convinced it's a correct assumption, we'll have to see. Maybe I'm wrong and IE first will be the only plausible build, who knows. BT cost 3500 gold. IE carry builds an additional Dblade, BF sword, plus Pickaxe for 2900 gold. That's 82 damage and 70 hp. You lose out on 12% lifesteal and the BT passive, which tbh isn't that good especially early on since the passive scales exponentially with champ level. IE build looks pretty competitive to me. On June 11 2014 07:29 turdburgler wrote: except even after the first big item purchase the dps in bot lane is still low enough that you can reasonably farm under the tower without being dived, meaning that as long as you dont play like a retard and all in someone with full AD when you bought life steal, you are in a much stronger position. i dont know how you can sit there and say a pick axe is better than a vamp scepter with a straight face. imo build paths wont change very much, maybe IE as a second item will become a thing but beyond that the biggest change will be relative popularity. kogmaw is gonna be so OP if these changes go live. Erm...it is. 25 AD versus 10 AD and 8% lifesteal. 8% lifesteal, especially early on in the game is nothing. Especially considering that lifesteal quints can give you 4.5% lifesteal, while AD quints give you a bit less than 7 ad. Lifesteal is a terrible combat stat until you get it and raw AD in large numbers, which isn't going to happen until lategame. People build fast vamp scepters nowadays because BT or Bork is the best first item buy for AD carries. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
You're jumping from that to an assumption that people will be able to lane fine on 1 dblade and LS runes, which is only 7.5% lifesteal. And even if you make that assumption, the guy who rushes vamp and takes AD runes instead has 8% lifesteal and is always 10 AD ahead in fights. I think you guys are overestimating how easy it will be to open IE. The Riot post did say they anticipate people who rush IE having to go 3 dblades or 2 dblades and LS runes in order to make it happen. That's as much money as a Pickaxe, and consistent with how much early sustain people are currently buying in games. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:23 Ketara wrote: Okay so, presuming that you get LS runes instead of AD runes, start dblade instead of longsword, and since IE costs 300 more than BT even with its price increase, the BT rush still has about 30 more AD than the IE rush at the time said items are finished. Again, this is assuming that the guy going IE doesn't have to spend more gold on sustain items than the BT guy. If you assume he does, then when the IE guy finishes BF, the BT guy already has BF+Vamp. The BT guy finishes BT around the time the IE guy has BF+Pickaxe and is working towards finishing it. If you make that assumption, the IE route obviously looks stronger. I'm not convinced it's a correct assumption, we'll have to see. Maybe I'm wrong and IE first will be the only plausible build, who knows. The problem is bt gives 80 dmg for 3500 which is simply too weak.The ls is irrelevant.I am not saying IE first will be the only plausible build but bt does seem incredibly weak.The extra hp simply doesn't really do anything for this type of champions at that point of the game. | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:30 wei2coolman wrote: Nerf to vamp sceptre really does make it hard to justify going BT first. Also sorta worried that if long lane phase happens, that botlane trades are going to be determined by who crits first when IE timing hits. crits are theoretically buffered and the buffers are separate for minions vs champions, so if your lane opponent gets a lucky crit on their first shot you can go more aggressive because you know their next couple shots probably won't be crits maybe | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 11 2014 06:33 Kinie wrote: Because I think they hate the current meta, even though such things happened in dota, and dota was able to work/play around with it because of more varied team comps and a larger map. The fact that league's map is smaller means that "ognTSM rotations" are that much stronger in pro games due to coordination. The fact that top lane is a literal island where people go to die and/or get shit on (with no CS) is a problem, because top is where people expect the tank to come out of. I'm interested why you think they hate the current meta (aside from the obvious top lane cs denial part). It seems to me that what exists is the obvious outcome of the changes they have made. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:36 thenexusp wrote: crits are theoretically buffered and the buffers are separate for minions vs champions, so if your lane opponent gets a lucky crit on their first shot you can go more aggressive because you know their next couple shots probably won't be crits maybe It is still rng. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:36 thenexusp wrote: crits are theoretically buffered and the buffers are separate for minions vs champions, so if your lane opponent gets a lucky crit on their first shot you can go more aggressive because you know their next couple shots probably won't be crits maybe difference is they get the first crit. it was the same problem with old phage slows. That's why Cop was such a god ADC in s2. THE PHAGE PROCS EVERYTIME. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:35 turdburgler wrote: 8% life steal isnt nothing, if you both have 100 ad and shoot each other once the pick axe user has only dealt roughly 7 more damage to you, you need to shoot a minion once to gain that back. The better comparison would be something like 80 AD to 95 or 100 to 115. Not sure how many times you'd have to shoot the minion cuz of armor. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On June 11 2014 07:36 Ketara wrote: Like, right now people open 1 dorans into vamp, and will often get a second dblade if they're behind. Assuming the current sustain from dblade is equivalent to even 2% lifesteal (conservative), that's 10-12% lifesteal. You're jumping from that to an assumption that people will be able to lane fine on 1 dblade and LS runes, which is only 7.5% lifesteal. And even if you make that assumption, the guy who rushes vamp and takes AD runes instead has 8% lifesteal and is always 10 AD ahead in fights. I think you guys are overestimating how easy it will be to open IE. The Riot post did say they anticipate people who rush IE having to go 3 dblades or 2 dblades and LS runes in order to make it happen. That's as much money as a Pickaxe, and consistent with how much early sustain people are currently buying in games. You and turdbungler are vastly overvaluing the strength of lifesteal, especially in an early game scenario. Until you have large amounts of lifesteal and AD, lifesteal is inferior to raw damage. You also ignored the math I did earlier. Disregarding runes and the first Doran's blade: When the guy building BT finishes his build, he has 80 AD and 15% lifesteal, plus the BT passive. That's 3500 gold. The guy building IE can have another Dblade, BF Sword, Pickaxe, and Cloak. That's 82 AD, 70 health, 3% lifesteal, and 15% crit for 3630 gold. IE guy has more AD and only ~650 gold away from completing IE. The 12% lifesteal difference is nice, but ultimately insignificant at that point in the game the way 15% crit is. The only value of lifesteal early on is to let you sustain through laning. In competitive play, that's honestly irrelevant since lane swaps happen so often. In solo queue, you can take the 5 AD loss from runes and get your early game sustain via runes instead. | ||
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