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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things.
Enough is enough. Let's move along now.
-NeoIllusions |
On June 07 2014 18:58 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 18:51 EquilasH wrote:On June 07 2014 09:41 krndandaman wrote:
Let's put it this way.
Player A plays 50 champions. He is plat 2.
Player B plays 2 champions. He is plat 2.
Chances are A is better, no?
I do think that it is necessary to specialize if you are going to make it into challenger/pro though. There's no way around it. Teams don't need players that play all roles and those that specialize will have a huge advantage over you.
Chances are that Player A played for a longer time and Player B is improving at a faster rate.Obviously this is not prevelant in EVERY case but it is much easier to learn the game when you play specific champions - when you play 50 different champions you'll most likely learn less about the game and more about the champion you're playing. When playing on comfort champions you can focus on different skills. Edit: Basically what I'm saying is that if your goal is to learn the game, one of the most effective ways is to specialize and then when you get to the highest level you can start branching out. lol literally no way to prove that and no, knowing 2 champions at d1 then trying to learn others against people who arent retards is goign to get you destroyed i'd rather know 10 champions decently well, and be able to play them decently well, than know 1 and be shit out of luck when i dont get my role
I had a friend who was stuck in bronze 1 and would play a different champ every game and would always complaining he was better then bronze which I agreed to some extent but would also tell him if you were better you would carry your way out. I told him to shrink is champ pool to 2-3 champs and only play 2-3 roles. Less then a month he got to gold 5 by playing Lucian/ez adc and nidalee/Leblanc mid. Playing against better players in just one or two postions will improve your play in all roles more then playing all roles at a lower level IMO.
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On June 07 2014 20:05 Klonere wrote:
On riven, doesn't she do pretty poorly vs a lot of top laners nowadays (Renek, Jax, Shyv etc)? Whats her matchup like vs Irelia?
Renek and Shyv are difficult. Jax is all about dodging the stun. Irelia is about shutting her down before she hits her spike at 7-9.
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On June 07 2014 20:05 Klonere wrote:
On riven, doesn't she do pretty poorly vs a lot of top laners nowadays (Renek, Jax, Shyv etc)? Whats her matchup like vs Irelia?
Jax and Irelia eventually beat her, dunno about the other two. She smashes them early on and a single kill (sometimes just hitting 6 first, which is easy for her with all the AoE unless jungler forces a back or something) will let her snowball and completely shut them down (Irelia moreso than Jax). With 4 dashes, one stun and one knock-back it's pretty easy for her to avoid Counterstrike (the same way you shouldn't cast it when Renekton Slices on you because his W goes through the dodge, he'll Q you for slightly reduced damage (AoE), then Dice away before you can reactivate the stun).
I assume Shyvana's harder early on because between E and W you can't easily avoid her damage and later on even if she doesn't do as much damage she's just too hard to kill.
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On June 07 2014 20:05 Klonere wrote:
On riven, doesn't she do pretty poorly vs a lot of top laners nowadays (Renek, Jax, Shyv etc)? Whats her matchup like vs Irelia?
Can't speak for Irelia, but I know she murders Jax. Or at least used to before the latest(?) set of nerfs. I think she does well vs Irelia too. The thing is Jax can't really initiate on her. You use your jump, she just E's away or stuns you and then Q's you autos you, and stuff in lane. I've been ahead on Riven's like 2-0 due to lucky/skilled events and still lost trades with her (but that didn't matter cuz lifesteal).
I'd imagine the new tp helps Jax and Irelia be only slightly behind though going into late game.
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As Riven against Irelia you kinda have to get a kill or a good cs/exp lead between lvl 1-4 and 6-8.
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Been messing around with junglers after the news of Khazix nerf. Went through the 5 stages of grief since I basically surfed khazix up to diamond on China server. One of my favorite champions. I agree hes OP but the Q nerf is a bit unjustified...
Either way.
Nocturne/Aatrox/Xin/Rengar - HAM junglers. You basically play as a hard initiate bruiser right into their backline and disrupt take down as much before you die. These guys can carry for both teams. God mode or feed hard. Other than rengar, needs/greatly benefits from Flare+Bortrk combo. Rengar works better with lizard+ghostblade and hard AD stats.
Shyvanna - Would have made the list above if it wasnt for her ridiculously tanky playstyle. Terrible jungler on lower levels where teammates rely on you to fix their fuckups. Can carry if ahead, one of the few junglers who can literally go one-man-army mode and seriously cause a fuck load of damage all by herself. Also greatly benefits from flare+botrk combo.
Elise/Vi - Jack of all trades, master of none. Great utility, initiate, but not close to the former glory days of hard carrying. Can peel, can do decent damage, can tank etc etc, but shines at none of them. Fits well in almost all team comps. Elise more popular simply because shes ranged and can do more with less, Vi can carry harder in Soloq due to being AD, but due to being melee, can fall off really hard and end up being a bit useless.
Jarvan/Lee Sin - Does a lot and provides a lot for the team, while still being a great disruptor and a brute force assassin at the same time. Lee Sin does more damage early and is more mobile, while jarvan begins to be really fucking crazy mid - late game by being both really hard to take down fast, and still managing to cause a fuckload of damage. Strongly recommend elder+brut+hexdrinker on these guys, but can be built both hard AD or hard tank style. Lee Sin ganks are easier to pull off, but his team fight is harder. Jarvan ganks are harder (you absolutely need to hit your EQ combo...so angle of gank is important). These guys are one of the few who can go in hardcore and still walk out, and due to this, Warmogs actually do quite well on these guys if opponent doesnt heavy % damage dealers that you cant take out fast.
Evelynn - Different mentality of playing - many players mess up on this part as evelynn. Watch some korean pro games on how to play evelynn. Evelynn is all about the hidden map control and mind games. Works best as a "disruptor", cannot really carry, but can be ridiculously ahead as a duelist/assassin by building AD. Very interesting champ, weak due to lack of CC/mobility, but still fits a very interesting role as a traditional spy/assassin style of playing.
Hecarim - just plain fucking weird. Is really crazy strong when ahead, but not a lot of ways to reach it. Running at enemies just isnt the same as a hard dash + disrupt that can occur in a very short time (Jarvan EQ combo, Lee Q flash R, Elise combo, Vi combo etc etc) Can absolutely become scary with a nice team comp (lulu mid karma support). Is really terrible when behind due to lack of damage.
Pantheon - man drop nerf hit hard dude...you really need great ulties to stay relevant in an even game once it reaches 20 minutes. But, still an absolute terror early game, can still be an absolute terror mid-late game. If not really behind, can still initiate/peel decently.
All of these junglers can go man mode and carry the game through example/leadership/objective control or just plain killing while still having a decent fallback plan...some more decent than others, but still. There are a couple junglers who might make the list if they werent already prominent on lanes and known to carry games already (jax..)..and I might have missed one or two...
I cannot speak for khazix as my server hasnt even activated Braum yet (did they just FORGET to activate him or is he too OP to be released yet?)
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Braum is fucking retarded right now. I was MF with BT/bruta/LW and I kept getting solo'd by him 1v1 with just Frozen Heart in teamfights.
User was warned for this post
wtf this was literally a response to the post right above me =/
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On June 07 2014 18:58 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 18:51 EquilasH wrote:On June 07 2014 09:41 krndandaman wrote:
Let's put it this way.
Player A plays 50 champions. He is plat 2.
Player B plays 2 champions. He is plat 2.
Chances are A is better, no?
I do think that it is necessary to specialize if you are going to make it into challenger/pro though. There's no way around it. Teams don't need players that play all roles and those that specialize will have a huge advantage over you.
Chances are that Player A played for a longer time and Player B is improving at a faster rate.Obviously this is not prevelant in EVERY case but it is much easier to learn the game when you play specific champions - when you play 50 different champions you'll most likely learn less about the game and more about the champion you're playing. When playing on comfort champions you can focus on different skills. Edit: Basically what I'm saying is that if your goal is to learn the game, one of the most effective ways is to specialize and then when you get to the highest level you can start branching out. lol literally no way to prove that and no, knowing 2 champions at d1 then trying to learn others against people who arent retards is goign to get you destroyed i'd rather know 10 champions decently well, and be able to play them decently well, than know 1 and be shit out of luck when i dont get my role
if you can play the game at a higher level its easier to translate those skills to a new character once you know how their kit works and what their role is.
playing 1 or 2 champs just helps when you are trying to get better because you can more easily see what you've done wrong each game.
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On June 07 2014 21:31 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 18:58 arb wrote:On June 07 2014 18:51 EquilasH wrote:On June 07 2014 09:41 krndandaman wrote:
Let's put it this way.
Player A plays 50 champions. He is plat 2.
Player B plays 2 champions. He is plat 2.
Chances are A is better, no?
I do think that it is necessary to specialize if you are going to make it into challenger/pro though. There's no way around it. Teams don't need players that play all roles and those that specialize will have a huge advantage over you.
Chances are that Player A played for a longer time and Player B is improving at a faster rate.Obviously this is not prevelant in EVERY case but it is much easier to learn the game when you play specific champions - when you play 50 different champions you'll most likely learn less about the game and more about the champion you're playing. When playing on comfort champions you can focus on different skills. Edit: Basically what I'm saying is that if your goal is to learn the game, one of the most effective ways is to specialize and then when you get to the highest level you can start branching out. lol literally no way to prove that and no, knowing 2 champions at d1 then trying to learn others against people who arent retards is goign to get you destroyed i'd rather know 10 champions decently well, and be able to play them decently well, than know 1 and be shit out of luck when i dont get my role if you can play the game at a higher level its easier to translate those skills to a new character once you know how their kit works and what their role is. playing 1 or 2 champs just helps when you are trying to get better because you can more easily see what you've done wrong each game.
I can further this by telling you that there are a LOT of people on KR server who play dia/challenger level with only ONE champion. Im talking at least 1000 games on only rengar/only aatrox/only karma/only lee sin (too many) etc etc. They will all tell you that picking up any other similar champ is really easy since the mechanics and experience already transfers.
You probably already see this if you run through guides on mobafire, players claiming they reached x point only playing y champion, but its simply more impressive when you do it on easily the most mechanically demanding and competitive server. (lol.inven.co.kr)
You might ask - what if they ban it? True for some of the top tier champs atm, but you wont be banning garen, sejuani, shaco, ashe. Some of these guys have multiple rune pages ONLY for ONE champion, can literally write up exactly what runes mastery and item build you need for exactly what situation. League isnt exactly a hard game...that kind of dedication translates into any champ pretty easily
This argument also already exists outside games - how do you learn best? By seeing it done, by reading from a textbook, or by doing it yourself? Everyone has a different way to learn/improve.
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How do people feel about Braum post nerfs? Does he still seem to be super strong?
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On June 07 2014 10:58 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 10:24 Slayer91 wrote:On June 07 2014 09:47 krndandaman wrote:On June 07 2014 09:42 VayneAuthority wrote:On June 07 2014 09:41 krndandaman wrote:
I'm more surprised that the vast majority of players on league are able to main 1 role let alone 1 champion. I get bored as fuck playing even 1 role 3 games in a row. yea i cant believe pro sports player just play point guard all day or striker or goalie. they must get bored as fuck playing the same thing all the time. TL;DR winning is fun enough for competitive people Not really a working analogy. You don't have 150 different champions to play and we are not pro players. Roles in basketball are also largely defined by your height. Whenever I play pick up basketball I don't always play pointguard. If I'm the shortest player, I'll probably play it. Even then, basketball is a lot different from league in that you can pretty much do anything other people do. You aren't limited by your role (unless of course you are a professional on a team). Come up with a better analogy. On June 07 2014 09:43 Slayer91 wrote:
lol dem sports players all 1 trick ponies
getting bored of playing the same shit happens when you cease to look for new things to try and mistakes that you made so you have something to work toward
theres very good reasons why people who stick to1 champ average much higher skill level Wasn't applied to pro players. I'm talking about the general populous on league. I disagree. We have over a 100 different champs to play in this game. Does it make any sense to limit yourself to just 1 champion? Sure if you wanna just gain elo you can just become a 1 trick pony and master the champion. Also the pros aren't 1 trick ponies. They are just exceptionally good at the role/champs they play but they would still smash most high elo players in other roles, especially with practice. It's no wonder pros don't really respect the 1 trick ponies. They are utterly useless in a competitive setting. I also disagree that higher elo = higher skill. It's a good marker for it but definitely not absolute. there are like 15 roles in rugby, or whatever 11 in american footbal, does it make sense to limit yourself to one positon? its the langauge you use is a problem, its not about limiting yourself its about focusing to increase your skill as much as possible in one area, and when you are finished you stop, unfortunately nobody is good enough to ever reach a skill ceiling so they just keep focusing in the same area unless they are required to switch for external reasons. pros dont respect the non pros unless they are like the top tier or solo q, so that argument doesnt mean anything, it wouldn't take a challenger 1 trick pony more than 10 games to be able to rape diamond players with a champ its the exact same argument you used for pros being able to rape people in offroles its the same thing with people who main 1 role/1 champ they tend to be significantly better at everything except champ specific skill on non main champs people who paly lots of champs arent better at regular champs, they are just equally bad on everything because its so much harder to learn with a new set of skills to work with every game I have no qualms with specializing in pro sports. I'm talking about casual players. I mean if your goal is to go pro, by all means specialize in a role (hopefully more than 1 champion though so you don't get banned out.) But if not, I think ignoring the other 100 or so champions in the game is a shame. It's just my opinion though, as I stated in the original post. By no means am I preaching the gospel here. I was just surprised that I'm not the norm since my general group of friends are also like me. I can't speak for all pros nor do I claim to have their opinion on this, but while watching qtpie's stream he was talking to kiwikid about challenger and he was shitting on 1 trick ponies pretty hard. I also remember him giving ups to hashinshin when someone listed him as a 1 trick pony. So there's that for you. Let's put it this way. Player A plays 50 champions. He is plat 2. Player B plays 2 champions. He is plat 2. Chances are A is better, no? I do think that it is necessary to specialize if you are going to make it into challenger/pro though. There's no way around it. Teams don't need players that play all roles and those that specialize will have a huge advantage over you. Same concept in BW for me. I had my strong race (zerg), but by no means did I play only zerg. My zerg was borderline B- while my protoss was C+ and terran borderline C+. But if you wanted to be pro you had to specialize, which was normal. It's just my preference as a casual player to want to play all the options available to me and I enjoy the game alot more playing new things. edit: Then again, I don't know why some people interpreted my post as "1 trick ponies suck you guys should play every champion and every role" Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 09:41 krndandaman wrote:
I'm more surprised that the vast majority of players on league are able to main 1 role let alone 1 champion. I get bored as fuck playing even 1 role 3 games in a row. Key word: I Now that this turned into a 1 trick pony discussion: I don't think 1 trick ponies are bad, I just think they need to slightly evolve from that to actually have a chance at becoming pro. 1 role pony is fine, 1 champ pony no.
as equilash pointed out your argument doesnt make sense. sure if you are both plat 2 the guy who plays 10x more champs is probably better but the time taken improve by playing 50 champions is probably also 10x as long.
anyway nobody is forcing anyone to limit themselves or not enjoy other champions, its simply damn near a fact that if you want to get better you should play less champs. it doesnt mean you wont get better playing a lot of them its just you're going to improve a lot slower.
you shouldn't think its shame if someone doesnt choose to play lots of champions because it can be a lot more fun to focus on getting better at one than what might be a frustrating experience of playing a lot of champs and doing mediocre most of the time.
and arb is right you tend to get stomped for a while learning a totally new champ if you played a couple to diamond one but thats better than doing mediore in plat one and being able to learn a new champ and only losing 55% of the time right?
also arb "there is literally no way to prove that" is a pretty dumb statement since you can't really get absolute proof but with a statisically certainty you can if you do enough testing.
you can easily apply basic mathematical principles for a theoretical proof that cutting down on champ pool will increase winrate. (just about the only counter argument is understanding champs better when you play them, but thats a somewhat marginal case becaues you can just figure out how to play against a champion by analysis when you play against them without needing to play them a lot)
For what its worth I don't know anyone who got diamond 1 without focusing on 2-3~ champs to get to that level originally
and I know tons of people who play random shit every game and never get better.
I also don't know anyone who only plays 2-3 champs and never got diamond 1. (fucking yttrasil still got d1 LOL)
I mean if we break LoL skill down into roughly 3 things
1: How good you are at laning phase
2: How good you are at teamfighting
3: How good you are at knowing where/when to move around the map
the first two are most directly affected by champion knowledge, and you you can analyze situations a lot either keeping your champion fixed.
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On June 07 2014 15:15 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 15:02 ticklishmusic wrote:
Warwick is probably the best jungle if you're duoing. It's insanely easy to snowball a buddy with just a tiny bit of coordination, like Jax + Warwick is probably as close as you can get to a guaranteed win. Unless your other two lanes lose because the other team has a jungler who can do something without their ult.
To be fair, if you snowball a Jax who cares about the other lanes?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 07 2014 23:01 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 15:15 GolemMadness wrote:On June 07 2014 15:02 ticklishmusic wrote:
Warwick is probably the best jungle if you're duoing. It's insanely easy to snowball a buddy with just a tiny bit of coordination, like Jax + Warwick is probably as close as you can get to a guaranteed win. Unless your other two lanes lose because the other team has a jungler who can do something without their ult. To be fair, if you snowball a Jax who cares about the other lanes?
Not necessarily a bad plan but warwick is a pretty bad champion to do that with
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i call bullshit on the statement that pro players bash/hate 1 trick ponies
most of them were 1 trick ponies back in season 1 to begin with
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Someone who plays only 1 champ but didn't get diamond is min7berrycrunch. But yeah... He is pretty special...
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WAIT
THIS THREAD ISNT OFFTOPIC
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On June 07 2014 23:27 Ketara wrote:
WAIT
THIS THREAD ISNT OFFTOPIC
I"VE BEEN LIED TO!
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On June 07 2014 23:19 Frolossus wrote:
i call bullshit on the statement that pro players bash/hate 1 trick ponies
most of them were 1 trick ponies back in season 1 to begin with
ill try to name some off the top of my head
wickd - irelia
froggen - anivia
snoopeh - amumu
yellowpete - kog maw
diamondprox - lee/udyr later shyvana
aphroo/rekkles adc mains
dyrus: singed///jax
tabzz: fizz
shook: lee sin
doublelfit: blitz
yellowstar - corki
older pros
saint - warwick
oddone - olaf?
rainman: teemo
hotshot: nidalee
shushei; gragas
candypanda/nyph played like sona/ez bot a lot
a lot i cant think of because they are newer and i know less about them, i think svenskeren was a big jungle j4 player
notable versatile players include chauster and xpeke who played a variety or shit and have been consistently at the top level for a long time
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It amazes me Wickd has been maining Irelia so long and is so good at her and he still isn't very good with Jax.
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i love irelia and im not that big of a jax fan, i dont understand it that much either
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EPT
