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On June 03 2014 17:25 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 17:12 Alaric wrote:
They were also trying to build shit like IE or BT on hm, once people figured out that Shiv's actually a cheap, efficient source of crit, while also giving him easy magic burst to diversify his damage, it went way better for him.
And I remember going all "wtf Riot?" when they decided to give him Flow on ult, because that made him ridicuously hard to burst when he had two 400-HP shields to break through under 5 seconds (even less if a teammate knocks people up for him) and the combo with Lulu, at that point a prevalent mid, was dirty. He wasn't too strong in straight-up fights till later because of how people built him, but he was a god at cleaning up and the change made that even better.
Braum's going to be nerfed to a worse state than his release one, but everyone could tell he was bonkers pre-release.
Jinx was tought bad pre-release because whine "she's immobile, doesn't matter if she does damage she'll die in 2 seconds!", well to follow that analogy, too bad she gets a triple on your team in 1 then. I thought most people thought she was gunna be op'd cuz of her q steroid.
People thought that in the right team comp she'd be OP due to W's insane scaling, plus vision grant, along with her Q steroid, and thought she'd be a situational champ.
Nah, turns out that her snare arming in .5s was enough to be deemed OP by Riot, and increased that timer to .75. They nerfed her W slightly and removed the vision grant but it's still a strong poke. The Q steroid is actually fine, it's just her passive (along w/ metagame shifts to lane shoves and early towers falling) that made her OP for that late 2013, early 2014 period.
Also keep in mind the no escape/mobility thing was important as Zed and Kha were the big assassins of the time, who could 100-0 someone if they sat and ate a full combo (which at the time was something the ADC was not in control of due to vision back then).
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On June 03 2014 17:25 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 17:12 Alaric wrote:
They were also trying to build shit like IE or BT on hm, once people figured out that Shiv's actually a cheap, efficient source of crit, while also giving him easy magic burst to diversify his damage, it went way better for him.
And I remember going all "wtf Riot?" when they decided to give him Flow on ult, because that made him ridicuously hard to burst when he had two 400-HP shields to break through under 5 seconds (even less if a teammate knocks people up for him) and the combo with Lulu, at that point a prevalent mid, was dirty. He wasn't too strong in straight-up fights till later because of how people built him, but he was a god at cleaning up and the change made that even better.
Braum's going to be nerfed to a worse state than his release one, but everyone could tell he was bonkers pre-release.
Jinx was tought bad pre-release because whine "she's immobile, doesn't matter if she does damage she'll die in 2 seconds!", well to follow that analogy, too bad she gets a triple on your team in 1 then. I thought most people thought she was gunna be op'd cuz of her q steroid.
Yeah I thought it was agreed that she was insane, literally the only thing giving her a sense of possible balance was her lack of mobility. Her kit was bonkers.
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^ Chompers range was also reduced because she could walk up to Cait, drop them behind her, and either force a fight, or force the net's cd + the 100 base magic damage from the chompers (which was nerfed too). She took E at level 2 just for that.
Shiv being good, and Shiv being built first rather than IE or BT are two different things tho. 
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On June 03 2014 18:08 Alaric wrote:^ Chompers range was also reduced because she could walk up to Cait, drop them behind her, and either force a fight, or force the net's cd + the 100 base magic damage from the chompers (which was nerfed too). She took E at level 2 just for that. Shiv being good, and Shiv being built first rather than IE or BT are two different things tho.
It doesn't look like they reduced the range. I like Jinx. Her kit can be crap, (it isn't) her personality looks fun.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Jinx/Background
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Indeed, my bad. Maybe it was only a PBE change that didn't go through when they first normalised the arm time (since it means you can dash through it even if it's dropped behind you as long as you react now).
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her passive is still the one of the most frustrating things to play against in the game imo
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On June 03 2014 15:50 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 12:52 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:47 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 cLutZ wrote:
My issue with the Olaf rework is that I don't think Riot knows what they want him to be (or at least cannot convey it). He has a huge Lifesteal and AS steroids in his kit (plus the AA CD reduction on E), which would be awesome if he was supposed to be a beastly Splitpusher+Duelist, but he isn't really, because his ult is really about diving, his Q has too high of a mana cost, and overall he just doesn't deserve the farm you get from being a dedicated splitpusher. So maybe he should be a teamfighter? Well, not really, because he is bad at peeling, and bad at poking, and is pretty easy to kill as far as divers are concerned. Also, without a dash, he isn't even that threatening without a massive speed differential.
So I think they took a kit that made sense (DIVE DIVE DIVE), and replaced it with one that didnt (Dive? Hide?). Right after a few (quickly reverted/lowered) buffs Post-Rework, he had a brief period where he was really strong in speed comps but because his jungle farming and ganks were so good he was getting ahead in the jungle, which is really what his kit is kinda meant to do now: Powerfarm, duel squishies, and snowball leads. However, that proved to be an unsustainable niche, so we are back at a weak (not terrible), and confusing Olaf. Or, you could think about it this way... Q will hit people who are chasing after you but can't immediately get to you, and ult stops people from locking you down while you try to escape(catch ya later gold card). Tada, everything you harped on for not fitting a splitpusher put into a splitpush context. He can dive all he wants with ghostblade. On June 03 2014 10:41 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 Amui wrote:On June 03 2014 10:31 Ketara wrote:
What recent champions were considered bad at release and then months later nerfed to be worse than their release state? I am wondering. Elise. Got buffed first couple patches into a train of consecutive nerfs. I guess, if a 20 month old champion is considered recent.She and Zed may be the best examples, and they're both nearly 2 years old. I feel like champions released in the last year people have picked up on pretty quickly. Not to mention new champions are now more than 2 months apart these days. Maybe you could say that when they were putting out 26 champions a year. Currently she's still in the most recent 15. For another example, Yasuo(3rd most recent.) Nobody thought Yasuo was bad on release. Yasuo had like a 40% win rate for at least a week upon release. Pretty sure plenty of people thought he was bad.
No one thought he was bad. It was clear that he was at least decent.
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rework kass(got even buffed before they immediately nerfed it back and he was considered as broken as before lol), rework rengar, rework khazix (even pros considered him meh before he become most broken jungler in the game and also played mid), rework leblac also took some time before she caught up
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On June 03 2014 17:16 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 15:54 Goumindong wrote:On June 03 2014 15:50 GolemMadness wrote:On June 03 2014 12:52 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:47 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 cLutZ wrote:
My issue with the Olaf rework is that I don't think Riot knows what they want him to be (or at least cannot convey it). He has a huge Lifesteal and AS steroids in his kit (plus the AA CD reduction on E), which would be awesome if he was supposed to be a beastly Splitpusher+Duelist, but he isn't really, because his ult is really about diving, his Q has too high of a mana cost, and overall he just doesn't deserve the farm you get from being a dedicated splitpusher. So maybe he should be a teamfighter? Well, not really, because he is bad at peeling, and bad at poking, and is pretty easy to kill as far as divers are concerned. Also, without a dash, he isn't even that threatening without a massive speed differential.
So I think they took a kit that made sense (DIVE DIVE DIVE), and replaced it with one that didnt (Dive? Hide?). Right after a few (quickly reverted/lowered) buffs Post-Rework, he had a brief period where he was really strong in speed comps but because his jungle farming and ganks were so good he was getting ahead in the jungle, which is really what his kit is kinda meant to do now: Powerfarm, duel squishies, and snowball leads. However, that proved to be an unsustainable niche, so we are back at a weak (not terrible), and confusing Olaf. Or, you could think about it this way... Q will hit people who are chasing after you but can't immediately get to you, and ult stops people from locking you down while you try to escape(catch ya later gold card). Tada, everything you harped on for not fitting a splitpusher put into a splitpush context. He can dive all he wants with ghostblade. On June 03 2014 10:41 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 Amui wrote:On June 03 2014 10:31 Ketara wrote:
What recent champions were considered bad at release and then months later nerfed to be worse than their release state? I am wondering. Elise. Got buffed first couple patches into a train of consecutive nerfs. I guess, if a 20 month old champion is considered recent.She and Zed may be the best examples, and they're both nearly 2 years old. I feel like champions released in the last year people have picked up on pretty quickly. Not to mention new champions are now more than 2 months apart these days. Maybe you could say that when they were putting out 26 champions a year. Currently she's still in the most recent 15. For another example, Yasuo(3rd most recent.) Nobody thought Yasuo was bad on release. Yasuo had like a 40% win rate for at least a week upon release. Pretty sure plenty of people thought he was bad. They were playing him top was the problem. He isn't really a top and gets beat by a lot of meta champions up there. Yeah, I feel like a few other champions have been put in lanes where they don't belong like Kayle and Jayce top. Jayce is so strong bot lane o_0. I know TL inhouses used to run it.
Huh? Kayle can be played in literally any lane + jungle. With her ult being such a game changing factor later in the game, she's not a bad pickup whenever. And Jayce bot is ok, but not like much stronger than current adcs.
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On June 03 2014 21:25 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 17:16 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 03 2014 15:54 Goumindong wrote:On June 03 2014 15:50 GolemMadness wrote:On June 03 2014 12:52 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:47 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 cLutZ wrote:
My issue with the Olaf rework is that I don't think Riot knows what they want him to be (or at least cannot convey it). He has a huge Lifesteal and AS steroids in his kit (plus the AA CD reduction on E), which would be awesome if he was supposed to be a beastly Splitpusher+Duelist, but he isn't really, because his ult is really about diving, his Q has too high of a mana cost, and overall he just doesn't deserve the farm you get from being a dedicated splitpusher. So maybe he should be a teamfighter? Well, not really, because he is bad at peeling, and bad at poking, and is pretty easy to kill as far as divers are concerned. Also, without a dash, he isn't even that threatening without a massive speed differential.
So I think they took a kit that made sense (DIVE DIVE DIVE), and replaced it with one that didnt (Dive? Hide?). Right after a few (quickly reverted/lowered) buffs Post-Rework, he had a brief period where he was really strong in speed comps but because his jungle farming and ganks were so good he was getting ahead in the jungle, which is really what his kit is kinda meant to do now: Powerfarm, duel squishies, and snowball leads. However, that proved to be an unsustainable niche, so we are back at a weak (not terrible), and confusing Olaf. Or, you could think about it this way... Q will hit people who are chasing after you but can't immediately get to you, and ult stops people from locking you down while you try to escape(catch ya later gold card). Tada, everything you harped on for not fitting a splitpusher put into a splitpush context. He can dive all he wants with ghostblade. On June 03 2014 10:41 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 Amui wrote:On June 03 2014 10:31 Ketara wrote:
What recent champions were considered bad at release and then months later nerfed to be worse than their release state? I am wondering. Elise. Got buffed first couple patches into a train of consecutive nerfs. I guess, if a 20 month old champion is considered recent.She and Zed may be the best examples, and they're both nearly 2 years old. I feel like champions released in the last year people have picked up on pretty quickly. Not to mention new champions are now more than 2 months apart these days. Maybe you could say that when they were putting out 26 champions a year. Currently she's still in the most recent 15. For another example, Yasuo(3rd most recent.) Nobody thought Yasuo was bad on release. Yasuo had like a 40% win rate for at least a week upon release. Pretty sure plenty of people thought he was bad. They were playing him top was the problem. He isn't really a top and gets beat by a lot of meta champions up there. Yeah, I feel like a few other champions have been put in lanes where they don't belong like Kayle and Jayce top. Jayce is so strong bot lane o_0. I know TL inhouses used to run it. Huh? Kayle can be played in literally any lane + jungle. With her ult being such a game changing factor later in the game, she's not a bad pickup whenever. And Jayce bot is ok, but not like much stronger than current adcs.
Except jayce is much weaker than most ads lol.
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Kha'Zix was still as absurdly strong as before, just in a different role (not role like "jungler", "mid laner", etc. but in terms of playstyle, item build, etc.) and people were unable to conceive that idea. Wreck Graves' damage on Q and R then up his range to 800 and people would say "Graves is shit, can't burst people anymore, so trash" without looking at how OP he'd be as an autoattacker standing in the back.
Obviously I'm forcing the trait but you get the analogy.
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On June 03 2014 21:33 Alaric wrote:
Kha'Zix was still as absurdly strong as before, just in a different role (not role like "jungler", "mid laner", etc. but in terms of playstyle, item build, etc.) and people were unable to conceive that idea. Wreck Graves' damage on Q and R then up his range to 800 and people would say "Graves is shit, can't burst people anymore, so trash" without looking at how OP he'd be as an autoattacker standing in the back.
Obviously I'm forcing the trait but you get the analogy.
What is this analogy you speak of?
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"Kha'Zix can't destroy people with W spam anymore [and win lane even when 700 gold behind because of Tear] nor 100-0 them by being able to WQauto before his leap even lands, he's shit!"
Turns out he became insanely strong in skirmishes if you evolve his ult, and deals more damage in melee range, but people didn't think about that because they were fixated on the poke into mass resets on 20% HP people.
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Well, after listening to all the Pentakill songs I must say that there is 4 songs that are good and worth listening to and thats Lightbringer, Deathfire Grasp, Ohmwrecker, and Thornmail. Granted Ohmwrecker has no lyrics but neither does Orb of Winter and The Hex Core but Ohmwrecker does the no lyrics thing better. Last Whisper is meh at best.
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On June 03 2014 21:38 Alaric wrote:
"Kha'Zix can't destroy people with W spam anymore [and win lane even when 700 gold behind because of Tear] nor 100-0 them by being able to WQauto before his leap even lands, he's shit!"
Turns out he became insanely strong in skirmishes if you evolve his ult, and deals more damage in melee range, but people didn't think about that because they were fixated on the poke into mass resets on 20% HP people.
Correct me if I'm wrong but when his W applied his passive he was stronger than he is today evolving R first?
Besides, if you're just taking popular opinion to be fact then you're simply asking for your argument to be retarded. Just because a lot of people say something doesn't make it totally true.
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Does anyone on EUW want to duo? I have no partners to play with  only friends for fucking around in ARAM with.
Capped92 add me :-)
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Is EUW even up? They restarted it earlier.
And yes Zdra, like the fact that people almost unanimously called Kha'Zix "trash tier", "unusable", etc. (Jayce and him have been called "Olafed" after their changes... yeah, well, you see who plays the FotM shit and who actually played Olaf from s2 to after the nerfs) after his changes doesn't make it true.
Kha'Zix and Jayce were broken before they were changed, and after they were still very strong, but "only" very strong, and not in the same areas (and we know how much people are willing to experiment).
It's like with the first Zac changes (the last batch and more importantly meta shifts in the jungle and Renekton going back top admittedly put him in a rather weak state), people called him shit. He went from broken to super strong at first, but because competitively teams supposedly only play the strongest, it doesn't matter that Zac is A-tier if there are S-tier picks available.
Does that mean he was bad? No, but it certainly didn't stop people from claiming so.
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On June 03 2014 22:48 Capped wrote:Does anyone on EUW want to duo? I have no partners to play with, except my sexy girlfriend who does not like my smaller than average penis only friends for fucking, in committed relationship Capped92 add me :-)
Boosted that post, to make it more appealing. GL
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Yasuo got a nerf to his flow shield numbers as well. For some reason no one bothered to check that the guy got like a 700-800 damage shield at lvl18 for whatever reason.
Pretty sure release yasuo shield numbers were increasing by 40-50 per level until lvl13-14, then suddenly it goes up by 110 per level randomly.
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It was 690. And the thing the baffled me the most when they decided that he ought to get a refresh of that thing when he ulted (I mentioned "400 shield twice" in my post because that was his shield value around level 13 iirc, so in the late midgame).
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EPT
