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On June 03 2014 13:22 Gahlo wrote:Despite it being this way for the last 5 months, my brain is still wired for NA starting first from S3. People were screaming OP because nobody knew how to play against him and Shiv/IE roflstomped awful players.
Okay. So people didn't think he was weak.
Yasuo is not an example of a champion that was deemed weak on release and nerfed months later then.
The most recent example I think would arguably be rework Sivir, but I think most people realized how strong she was really fast too, within one or two weeks.
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On June 03 2014 13:24 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 13:13 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 13:07 Ketara wrote:
Yasuo was both picked and banned in LCS literally the very first day he was available.
Who thought he was bad, exactly? The people on TL who insisted he should be built full tank for the first month he was out? Did you miss the part where competitive is like... a month behind live? The time between his buffs and nerfs was small enough that he probably wasn't even available until after he got nerfed. By that time he was a known quantity as super strong. -Season 3 Off-Season Starts- 3.15: Yasuo released December 13, 2013 -Season 4 Begins- 4.1 Yasuo buffed January 15, 2014 -Spring Split starts January 17, 2014- 4.2 Yasuo gets nerfed February 10, 2014 Uh. Yasuo's buff at 4.1 cannot be compared to the nerfs. Let's see what were changed: V4.1: Way of the Wanderer The 10% damage penalty now applies to Statikk Shiv. Steel Tempest Third cast is now automatically smart cast (as with the first and second cast). Improved reliability of the Sweeping Blade combo. Wind Wall No longer blocks friendly Dark Spheres. Last Breath Now grants maximum Flow on cast. Spell animation shortened by 0.1 seconds. Now less likely to follow target's using Flash. Bug fix: The cooldown is now appropriate tracked for the purposes of spectator mode and the interface. His R was improved for sure, but the biggest nerfs for him that patch was the Statikk Shiv fix and his damage penalty on Statikk Shiv fix. All of a sudden he was NOT critting almost every single Shiv proc and the extra -10% damage hurted him quite a bit.
I don't consider bug fixes as nerfs.
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Good god, no one thought Yasuo was bad. And if they did, its forgivable given how snowbally, opaque, and overall poorly designed his kit is. Even now, he isn't a well designed champion, and he doesn't work for a huge number of players.
On June 03 2014 13:28 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 13:24 Sufficiency wrote:On June 03 2014 13:13 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 13:07 Ketara wrote:
Yasuo was both picked and banned in LCS literally the very first day he was available.
Who thought he was bad, exactly? The people on TL who insisted he should be built full tank for the first month he was out? Did you miss the part where competitive is like... a month behind live? The time between his buffs and nerfs was small enough that he probably wasn't even available until after he got nerfed. By that time he was a known quantity as super strong. -Season 3 Off-Season Starts- 3.15: Yasuo released December 13, 2013 -Season 4 Begins- 4.1 Yasuo buffed January 15, 2014 -Spring Split starts January 17, 2014- 4.2 Yasuo gets nerfed February 10, 2014 Uh. Yasuo's buff at 4.1 cannot be compared to the nerfs. Let's see what were changed: V4.1: Way of the Wanderer The 10% damage penalty now applies to Statikk Shiv. Steel Tempest Third cast is now automatically smart cast (as with the first and second cast). Improved reliability of the Sweeping Blade combo. Wind Wall No longer blocks friendly Dark Spheres. Last Breath Now grants maximum Flow on cast. Spell animation shortened by 0.1 seconds. Now less likely to follow target's using Flash. Bug fix: The cooldown is now appropriate tracked for the purposes of spectator mode and the interface. His R was improved for sure, but the biggest nerfs for him that patch was the Statikk Shiv fix and his damage penalty on Statikk Shiv fix. All of a sudden he was NOT critting almost every single Shiv proc and the extra -10% damage hurted him quite a bit. I don't consider bug fixes as nerfs.
Then you are just being obstinate. Several bug fixes have served as huge buffs/nerfs in the past. Remember that Pantheon "fix"?
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On June 03 2014 13:23 Cheap0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 13:16 Goumindong wrote:
Bonus points if you record the game (well leaguereplay is bad, so you can wait till riot replays are live but that will probably take a while) and have someone who is better than you, and mains the position that you're playing. do the same thing you did. The better the player the more mistakes they will find. And they will find a lot.
Use BaronReplays, I have yet to have any problems with it. http://ahri.tw/en/
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On June 03 2014 13:28 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 13:24 Sufficiency wrote:On June 03 2014 13:13 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 13:07 Ketara wrote:
Yasuo was both picked and banned in LCS literally the very first day he was available.
Who thought he was bad, exactly? The people on TL who insisted he should be built full tank for the first month he was out? Did you miss the part where competitive is like... a month behind live? The time between his buffs and nerfs was small enough that he probably wasn't even available until after he got nerfed. By that time he was a known quantity as super strong. -Season 3 Off-Season Starts- 3.15: Yasuo released December 13, 2013 -Season 4 Begins- 4.1 Yasuo buffed January 15, 2014 -Spring Split starts January 17, 2014- 4.2 Yasuo gets nerfed February 10, 2014 Uh. Yasuo's buff at 4.1 cannot be compared to the nerfs. Let's see what were changed: V4.1: Way of the Wanderer The 10% damage penalty now applies to Statikk Shiv. Steel Tempest Third cast is now automatically smart cast (as with the first and second cast). Improved reliability of the Sweeping Blade combo. Wind Wall No longer blocks friendly Dark Spheres. Last Breath Now grants maximum Flow on cast. Spell animation shortened by 0.1 seconds. Now less likely to follow target's using Flash. Bug fix: The cooldown is now appropriate tracked for the purposes of spectator mode and the interface. His R was improved for sure, but the biggest nerfs for him that patch was the Statikk Shiv fix and his damage penalty on Statikk Shiv fix. All of a sudden he was NOT critting almost every single Shiv proc and the extra -10% damage hurted him quite a bit. I don't consider bug fixes as nerfs.
The whole reason why Riot even bothered to fix the Statikk Shiv bug was due to Yasuo. It was a change intentionally aimed at nerfing Yasuo.
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On June 03 2014 13:42 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 13:28 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 13:24 Sufficiency wrote:On June 03 2014 13:13 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 13:07 Ketara wrote:
Yasuo was both picked and banned in LCS literally the very first day he was available.
Who thought he was bad, exactly? The people on TL who insisted he should be built full tank for the first month he was out? Did you miss the part where competitive is like... a month behind live? The time between his buffs and nerfs was small enough that he probably wasn't even available until after he got nerfed. By that time he was a known quantity as super strong. -Season 3 Off-Season Starts- 3.15: Yasuo released December 13, 2013 -Season 4 Begins- 4.1 Yasuo buffed January 15, 2014 -Spring Split starts January 17, 2014- 4.2 Yasuo gets nerfed February 10, 2014 Uh. Yasuo's buff at 4.1 cannot be compared to the nerfs. Let's see what were changed: V4.1: Way of the Wanderer The 10% damage penalty now applies to Statikk Shiv. Steel Tempest Third cast is now automatically smart cast (as with the first and second cast). Improved reliability of the Sweeping Blade combo. Wind Wall No longer blocks friendly Dark Spheres. Last Breath Now grants maximum Flow on cast. Spell animation shortened by 0.1 seconds. Now less likely to follow target's using Flash. Bug fix: The cooldown is now appropriate tracked for the purposes of spectator mode and the interface. His R was improved for sure, but the biggest nerfs for him that patch was the Statikk Shiv fix and his damage penalty on Statikk Shiv fix. All of a sudden he was NOT critting almost every single Shiv proc and the extra -10% damage hurted him quite a bit. I don't consider bug fixes as nerfs. The whole reason why Riot even bothered to fix the Statikk Shiv bug was due to Yasuo. It was a change intentionally aimed at nerfing Yasuo.
Does anybody remember anybody complaining about it before Yasuo?
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On June 03 2014 13:28 cLutZ wrote:Good god, no one thought Yasuo was bad. And if they did, its forgivable given how snowbally, opaque, and overall poorly designed his kit is. Even now, he isn't a well designed champion, and he doesn't work for a huge number of players. Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 13:28 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 13:24 Sufficiency wrote:On June 03 2014 13:13 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 13:07 Ketara wrote:
Yasuo was both picked and banned in LCS literally the very first day he was available.
Who thought he was bad, exactly? The people on TL who insisted he should be built full tank for the first month he was out? Did you miss the part where competitive is like... a month behind live? The time between his buffs and nerfs was small enough that he probably wasn't even available until after he got nerfed. By that time he was a known quantity as super strong. -Season 3 Off-Season Starts- 3.15: Yasuo released December 13, 2013 -Season 4 Begins- 4.1 Yasuo buffed January 15, 2014 -Spring Split starts January 17, 2014- 4.2 Yasuo gets nerfed February 10, 2014 Uh. Yasuo's buff at 4.1 cannot be compared to the nerfs. Let's see what were changed: V4.1: Way of the Wanderer The 10% damage penalty now applies to Statikk Shiv. Steel Tempest Third cast is now automatically smart cast (as with the first and second cast). Improved reliability of the Sweeping Blade combo. Wind Wall No longer blocks friendly Dark Spheres. Last Breath Now grants maximum Flow on cast. Spell animation shortened by 0.1 seconds. Now less likely to follow target's using Flash. Bug fix: The cooldown is now appropriate tracked for the purposes of spectator mode and the interface. His R was improved for sure, but the biggest nerfs for him that patch was the Statikk Shiv fix and his damage penalty on Statikk Shiv fix. All of a sudden he was NOT critting almost every single Shiv proc and the extra -10% damage hurted him quite a bit. I don't consider bug fixes as nerfs. Then you are just being obstinate. Several bug fixes have served as huge buffs/nerfs in the past. Remember that Pantheon "fix"?
I still think his W needs to have real cost. Once he casts W, his flow should drop to 0.
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On June 03 2014 13:52 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 13:28 cLutZ wrote:Good god, no one thought Yasuo was bad. And if they did, its forgivable given how snowbally, opaque, and overall poorly designed his kit is. Even now, he isn't a well designed champion, and he doesn't work for a huge number of players. On June 03 2014 13:28 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 13:24 Sufficiency wrote:On June 03 2014 13:13 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 13:07 Ketara wrote:
Yasuo was both picked and banned in LCS literally the very first day he was available.
Who thought he was bad, exactly? The people on TL who insisted he should be built full tank for the first month he was out? Did you miss the part where competitive is like... a month behind live? The time between his buffs and nerfs was small enough that he probably wasn't even available until after he got nerfed. By that time he was a known quantity as super strong. -Season 3 Off-Season Starts- 3.15: Yasuo released December 13, 2013 -Season 4 Begins- 4.1 Yasuo buffed January 15, 2014 -Spring Split starts January 17, 2014- 4.2 Yasuo gets nerfed February 10, 2014 Uh. Yasuo's buff at 4.1 cannot be compared to the nerfs. Let's see what were changed: V4.1: Way of the Wanderer The 10% damage penalty now applies to Statikk Shiv. Steel Tempest Third cast is now automatically smart cast (as with the first and second cast). Improved reliability of the Sweeping Blade combo. Wind Wall No longer blocks friendly Dark Spheres. Last Breath Now grants maximum Flow on cast. Spell animation shortened by 0.1 seconds. Now less likely to follow target's using Flash. Bug fix: The cooldown is now appropriate tracked for the purposes of spectator mode and the interface. His R was improved for sure, but the biggest nerfs for him that patch was the Statikk Shiv fix and his damage penalty on Statikk Shiv fix. All of a sudden he was NOT critting almost every single Shiv proc and the extra -10% damage hurted him quite a bit. I don't consider bug fixes as nerfs. Then you are just being obstinate. Several bug fixes have served as huge buffs/nerfs in the past. Remember that Pantheon "fix"? I still think his W needs to have real cost. Once he casts W, his flow should drop to 0.
If only there was some sort of resource system that prevented spamming spells. You could put higher costs on stronger spells to discourage players from using them for minor reasons (like when Dade literally used windwall in ogn semis to deny 1 cs), and maybe even leave them vulnerable if they spam over a long time. Oh well, too bad no one could think of something that clever.
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Oh boy, here comes the TL mana circlejerk.
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Yasuo with mana would be a dumb champion. He's fine now.
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yasuo with mana would just fall into the "needs tear so therefore shitter" that all ad champs that require tear atm fall into. too big of a gold sink for LCS.
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It's the fucking cooldown on his E that is gamebreaking. Like i don't really give a shit about his Q or his W, but his fucking dash cannot be on a .5 second cool down from lv1.
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Yeah the strongest thing about Yasuo is definitely the dash at this point.
It bugs me that he's a big AD champion but at level 1 he has a skill that does 140 magic damage.
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On June 03 2014 12:52 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 10:47 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 cLutZ wrote:
My issue with the Olaf rework is that I don't think Riot knows what they want him to be (or at least cannot convey it). He has a huge Lifesteal and AS steroids in his kit (plus the AA CD reduction on E), which would be awesome if he was supposed to be a beastly Splitpusher+Duelist, but he isn't really, because his ult is really about diving, his Q has too high of a mana cost, and overall he just doesn't deserve the farm you get from being a dedicated splitpusher. So maybe he should be a teamfighter? Well, not really, because he is bad at peeling, and bad at poking, and is pretty easy to kill as far as divers are concerned. Also, without a dash, he isn't even that threatening without a massive speed differential.
So I think they took a kit that made sense (DIVE DIVE DIVE), and replaced it with one that didnt (Dive? Hide?). Right after a few (quickly reverted/lowered) buffs Post-Rework, he had a brief period where he was really strong in speed comps but because his jungle farming and ganks were so good he was getting ahead in the jungle, which is really what his kit is kinda meant to do now: Powerfarm, duel squishies, and snowball leads. However, that proved to be an unsustainable niche, so we are back at a weak (not terrible), and confusing Olaf. Or, you could think about it this way... Q will hit people who are chasing after you but can't immediately get to you, and ult stops people from locking you down while you try to escape(catch ya later gold card). Tada, everything you harped on for not fitting a splitpusher put into a splitpush context. He can dive all he wants with ghostblade. On June 03 2014 10:41 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 Amui wrote:On June 03 2014 10:31 Ketara wrote:
What recent champions were considered bad at release and then months later nerfed to be worse than their release state? I am wondering. Elise. Got buffed first couple patches into a train of consecutive nerfs. I guess, if a 20 month old champion is considered recent.She and Zed may be the best examples, and they're both nearly 2 years old. I feel like champions released in the last year people have picked up on pretty quickly. Not to mention new champions are now more than 2 months apart these days. Maybe you could say that when they were putting out 26 champions a year. Currently she's still in the most recent 15. For another example, Yasuo(3rd most recent.) Nobody thought Yasuo was bad on release.
Yasuo had like a 40% win rate for at least a week upon release. Pretty sure plenty of people thought he was bad.
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On June 03 2014 15:50 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 12:52 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:47 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 cLutZ wrote:
My issue with the Olaf rework is that I don't think Riot knows what they want him to be (or at least cannot convey it). He has a huge Lifesteal and AS steroids in his kit (plus the AA CD reduction on E), which would be awesome if he was supposed to be a beastly Splitpusher+Duelist, but he isn't really, because his ult is really about diving, his Q has too high of a mana cost, and overall he just doesn't deserve the farm you get from being a dedicated splitpusher. So maybe he should be a teamfighter? Well, not really, because he is bad at peeling, and bad at poking, and is pretty easy to kill as far as divers are concerned. Also, without a dash, he isn't even that threatening without a massive speed differential.
So I think they took a kit that made sense (DIVE DIVE DIVE), and replaced it with one that didnt (Dive? Hide?). Right after a few (quickly reverted/lowered) buffs Post-Rework, he had a brief period where he was really strong in speed comps but because his jungle farming and ganks were so good he was getting ahead in the jungle, which is really what his kit is kinda meant to do now: Powerfarm, duel squishies, and snowball leads. However, that proved to be an unsustainable niche, so we are back at a weak (not terrible), and confusing Olaf. Or, you could think about it this way... Q will hit people who are chasing after you but can't immediately get to you, and ult stops people from locking you down while you try to escape(catch ya later gold card). Tada, everything you harped on for not fitting a splitpusher put into a splitpush context. He can dive all he wants with ghostblade. On June 03 2014 10:41 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 Amui wrote:On June 03 2014 10:31 Ketara wrote:
What recent champions were considered bad at release and then months later nerfed to be worse than their release state? I am wondering. Elise. Got buffed first couple patches into a train of consecutive nerfs. I guess, if a 20 month old champion is considered recent.She and Zed may be the best examples, and they're both nearly 2 years old. I feel like champions released in the last year people have picked up on pretty quickly. Not to mention new champions are now more than 2 months apart these days. Maybe you could say that when they were putting out 26 champions a year. Currently she's still in the most recent 15. For another example, Yasuo(3rd most recent.) Nobody thought Yasuo was bad on release. Yasuo had like a 40% win rate for at least a week upon release. Pretty sure plenty of people thought he was bad.
They were playing him top was the problem. He isn't really a top and gets beat by a lot of meta champions up there.
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They were also trying to build shit like IE or BT on hm, once people figured out that Shiv's actually a cheap, efficient source of crit, while also giving him easy magic burst to diversify his damage, it went way better for him.
And I remember going all "wtf Riot?" when they decided to give him Flow on ult, because that made him ridicuously hard to burst when he had two 400-HP shields to break through under 5 seconds (even less if a teammate knocks people up for him) and the combo with Lulu, at that point a prevalent mid, was dirty. He wasn't too strong in straight-up fights till later because of how people built him, but he was a god at cleaning up and the change made that even better.
Braum's going to be nerfed to a worse state than his release one, but everyone could tell he was bonkers pre-release.
Jinx was tought bad pre-release because whine "she's immobile, doesn't matter if she does damage she'll die in 2 seconds!", well to follow that analogy, too bad she gets a triple on your team in 1 then.
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On June 03 2014 15:54 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 15:50 GolemMadness wrote:On June 03 2014 12:52 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:47 Gahlo wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 cLutZ wrote:
My issue with the Olaf rework is that I don't think Riot knows what they want him to be (or at least cannot convey it). He has a huge Lifesteal and AS steroids in his kit (plus the AA CD reduction on E), which would be awesome if he was supposed to be a beastly Splitpusher+Duelist, but he isn't really, because his ult is really about diving, his Q has too high of a mana cost, and overall he just doesn't deserve the farm you get from being a dedicated splitpusher. So maybe he should be a teamfighter? Well, not really, because he is bad at peeling, and bad at poking, and is pretty easy to kill as far as divers are concerned. Also, without a dash, he isn't even that threatening without a massive speed differential.
So I think they took a kit that made sense (DIVE DIVE DIVE), and replaced it with one that didnt (Dive? Hide?). Right after a few (quickly reverted/lowered) buffs Post-Rework, he had a brief period where he was really strong in speed comps but because his jungle farming and ganks were so good he was getting ahead in the jungle, which is really what his kit is kinda meant to do now: Powerfarm, duel squishies, and snowball leads. However, that proved to be an unsustainable niche, so we are back at a weak (not terrible), and confusing Olaf. Or, you could think about it this way... Q will hit people who are chasing after you but can't immediately get to you, and ult stops people from locking you down while you try to escape(catch ya later gold card). Tada, everything you harped on for not fitting a splitpusher put into a splitpush context. He can dive all he wants with ghostblade. On June 03 2014 10:41 Ketara wrote:On June 03 2014 10:34 Amui wrote:On June 03 2014 10:31 Ketara wrote:
What recent champions were considered bad at release and then months later nerfed to be worse than their release state? I am wondering. Elise. Got buffed first couple patches into a train of consecutive nerfs. I guess, if a 20 month old champion is considered recent.She and Zed may be the best examples, and they're both nearly 2 years old. I feel like champions released in the last year people have picked up on pretty quickly. Not to mention new champions are now more than 2 months apart these days. Maybe you could say that when they were putting out 26 champions a year. Currently she's still in the most recent 15. For another example, Yasuo(3rd most recent.) Nobody thought Yasuo was bad on release. Yasuo had like a 40% win rate for at least a week upon release. Pretty sure plenty of people thought he was bad. They were playing him top was the problem. He isn't really a top and gets beat by a lot of meta champions up there.
Yeah, I feel like a few other champions have been put in lanes where they don't belong like Kayle and Jayce top. Jayce is so strong bot lane o_0. I know TL inhouses used to run it.
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On June 03 2014 17:12 Alaric wrote:
They were also trying to build shit like IE or BT on hm, once people figured out that Shiv's actually a cheap, efficient source of crit, while also giving him easy magic burst to diversify his damage, it went way better for him.
And I remember going all "wtf Riot?" when they decided to give him Flow on ult, because that made him ridicuously hard to burst when he had two 400-HP shields to break through under 5 seconds (even less if a teammate knocks people up for him) and the combo with Lulu, at that point a prevalent mid, was dirty. He wasn't too strong in straight-up fights till later because of how people built him, but he was a god at cleaning up and the change made that even better.
Braum's going to be nerfed to a worse state than his release one, but everyone could tell he was bonkers pre-release.
Jinx was tought bad pre-release because whine "she's immobile, doesn't matter if she does damage she'll die in 2 seconds!", well to follow that analogy, too bad she gets a triple on your team in 1 then.
I thought most people thought she was gunna be op'd cuz of her q steroid.
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what are you supposed to start on yasuo for a sustain start?
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On June 03 2014 17:12 Alaric wrote:
They were also trying to build shit like IE or BT on hm, once people figured out that Shiv's actually a cheap, efficient source of crit, while also giving him easy magic burst to diversify his damage, it went way better for him.
And I remember going all "wtf Riot?" when they decided to give him Flow on ult, because that made him ridicuously hard to burst when he had two 400-HP shields to break through under 5 seconds (even less if a teammate knocks people up for him) and the combo with Lulu, at that point a prevalent mid, was dirty. He wasn't too strong in straight-up fights till later because of how people built him, but he was a god at cleaning up and the change made that even better.
Braum's going to be nerfed to a worse state than his release one, but everyone could tell he was bonkers pre-release.
Jinx was tought bad pre-release because whine "she's immobile, doesn't matter if she does damage she'll die in 2 seconds!", well to follow that analogy, too bad she gets a triple on your team in 1 then.
pretty sure everyone knew shiv would be good on him
lol
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EPT
