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On May 20 2014 05:41 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 05:28 Diamond wrote:
Damn this thread got hella negative. Wtf? Don't worry, someone just told slayer to adopt the "lf you don't have idra macro, minimum, you cannot be helped" mentality.
whats idra macro
On May 20 2014 05:45 Diamond wrote:
I feel like the word "bad" is being thrown around quite a bit here without context.
If you say a gold player is "bad", what does that mean? Is he bad compared to the Top .1%? Bad compared to silver? Bad compared to bronze? Remember a MASSIVE amount of the LoL playerbase is Silver or below, being gold alone means you are either REALLY lucky with teamates (go play the lotto if you are that lucky), or you are better than most LoL players.
Anyone that below LCS level isn't just "bad", they are "bad" when compared to that level.
everyone is bad
but nobody likes to admit it, so its great to call people bad when they whine too much
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On May 20 2014 05:45 Diamond wrote:
I feel like the word "bad" is being thrown around quite a bit here without context.
If you say a gold player is "bad", what does that mean? Is he bad compared to the Top .1%? Bad compared to silver? Bad compared to bronze? Remember a MASSIVE amount of the LoL playerbase is Silver or below, being gold alone means you are either REALLY lucky with teamates (go play the lotto if you are that lucky), or you are better than most LoL players.
Anyone that below LCS level isn't just "bad", they are "bad" when compared to that level.
League isn't about making good plays, it's about not making bad ones and capitalizing on when your opponent makes a bad play. Every "good" play is just a result of an opponent having made a bad play, and you capitalizing on it. The main way to improve is to fix all the mistakes you're making, and that requires recognising them, and for gold/plat players, that's going to be a shitload of mistakes being made constantly.
The first part of improving is recognising just how shit you actually are, and how many mistakes you're making, and how many mistakes your opponent is making, (which you then double fuck up by not capitalising on.) You can't get good unless you realise quite how shit you actually are.
/source, I'm fucking terrible tt
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United States47024 Posts
On May 20 2014 05:43 Goumindong wrote:
Seeing that you lose more games when you're way ahead than you should lose (or that you piss away the lead) is a good indicator of where you can get better. Its not as good a descriptor of the issue as more specific ones which have already been examined but its still better than "not good enough"
In this case, I don't think it is though. The skillset you're using to win games doesn't change because you have a lot of gold. It just puts more weight on your individual contribution to the game because by nature of being farmed and high level you have more influence over the outcome of the game as a whole and more weight is naturally put on errors you make because of this. Put a different way, people lose games when they're 10-0 not because they're bad at playing out the specific scenario of being 10-0, but because they're making the same errors they do in any other scenario and it impacts the game more because in this one they don't have teammates with a better tempo to bail them out. They then falsely attribute their losses to factors which may not really be of primary concern.
Plus this isn't even relevant to the original discussion because this particular definition of "bad at carrying" isn't even how Alaric used the term.
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Better then most isn't really that relevant when you are one of the much smaller group of people that are in any way interested in informing yourself about a subject.
Basically, you have a gigantic amount of people who are ridiculously bad, and have no interest in not being that bad because that is just not how they think. Anything below top 10% is pretty bad if you are someone who watches competetive matches, discusses strategies, and informs himself about the game, because you can be sure that a lot of those remaining 90% don't do any of that (Numbers totally pulled out of my arse).
You should not compare yourself to the average, but to those with a similar investment into the game, both in time and amount of thought.
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On May 20 2014 05:48 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 05:41 cLutZ wrote:On May 20 2014 05:28 Diamond wrote:
Damn this thread got hella negative. Wtf? Don't worry, someone just told slayer to adopt the "lf you don't have idra macro, minimum, you cannot be helped" mentality. whats idra macro Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 05:45 Diamond wrote:
I feel like the word "bad" is being thrown around quite a bit here without context.
If you say a gold player is "bad", what does that mean? Is he bad compared to the Top .1%? Bad compared to silver? Bad compared to bronze? Remember a MASSIVE amount of the LoL playerbase is Silver or below, being gold alone means you are either REALLY lucky with teamates (go play the lotto if you are that lucky), or you are better than most LoL players.
Anyone that below LCS level isn't just "bad", they are "bad" when compared to that level. everyone is bad but nobody likes to admit it, so its great to call people bad when they whine too much
Not sure if elaborate troll or...
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On May 20 2014 05:50 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 05:45 Diamond wrote:
I feel like the word "bad" is being thrown around quite a bit here without context.
If you say a gold player is "bad", what does that mean? Is he bad compared to the Top .1%? Bad compared to silver? Bad compared to bronze? Remember a MASSIVE amount of the LoL playerbase is Silver or below, being gold alone means you are either REALLY lucky with teamates (go play the lotto if you are that lucky), or you are better than most LoL players.
Anyone that below LCS level isn't just "bad", they are "bad" when compared to that level. League, at least up until like, high diamond/challenger, isn't about making good plays, it's about not making bad ones and capitalizing on when your opponent makes a bad play. Every "good" play is just a result of an opponent having made a bad play, and you capitalizing on it. The main way to improve is to fix all the mistakes you're making, and that requires recognising them, and for gold/plat players, that's going to be a shitload of mistakes being made constantly. The first part of improving is recognising just how shit you actually are, and how many mistakes you're making, and how many mistakes your opponent is making, (which you then double fuck up by not capitalising on.) You can't get good unless you realise quite how shit you actually are. /source, I'm fucking terrible tt
the first statement is bad. just remove it and your post becomes good.
making a play means there is an opportunity, which means someone made a mistake
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On May 20 2014 05:54 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 05:50 killerdog wrote:On May 20 2014 05:45 Diamond wrote:
I feel like the word "bad" is being thrown around quite a bit here without context.
If you say a gold player is "bad", what does that mean? Is he bad compared to the Top .1%? Bad compared to silver? Bad compared to bronze? Remember a MASSIVE amount of the LoL playerbase is Silver or below, being gold alone means you are either REALLY lucky with teamates (go play the lotto if you are that lucky), or you are better than most LoL players.
Anyone that below LCS level isn't just "bad", they are "bad" when compared to that level. League, at least up until like, high diamond/challenger, isn't about making good plays, it's about not making bad ones and capitalizing on when your opponent makes a bad play. Every "good" play is just a result of an opponent having made a bad play, and you capitalizing on it. The main way to improve is to fix all the mistakes you're making, and that requires recognising them, and for gold/plat players, that's going to be a shitload of mistakes being made constantly. The first part of improving is recognising just how shit you actually are, and how many mistakes you're making, and how many mistakes your opponent is making, (which you then double fuck up by not capitalising on.) You can't get good unless you realise quite how shit you actually are. /source, I'm fucking terrible tt the first statement is bad. just remove it and your post becomes good. making a play means there is an opportunity, which means someone made a mistake
Was just covering my ass incase one of you challenger/d1 people came and disagreed with me :p
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Every time I read posts that say people in d1 don't make mistakes or dont rage like bronzies I laugh.
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On May 20 2014 05:45 Diamond wrote:
I feel like the word "bad" is being thrown around quite a bit here without context.
If you say a gold player is "bad", what does that mean? Is he bad compared to the Top .1%? Bad compared to silver? Bad compared to bronze? Remember a MASSIVE amount of the LoL playerbase is Silver or below, being gold alone means you are either REALLY lucky with teamates (go play the lotto if you are that lucky), or you are better than most LoL players.
Anyone that below LCS level isn't just "bad", they are "bad" when compared to that level.
Sorry bro. If you ain't faker. You're bad.
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On May 20 2014 04:35 JonGalt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Holy fuck Alaric. You overthink things far too much for your skill level. I enjoy reading your posts (especially when I'm NFL blitzed), probably more than most, because the level of detail is the closest I can get to actually playing, or hell even watching the game. But you need to stop thinking about the meta, team comps, champions and just play the fucking game.
I can't wait to get back in December and climb to diamond so fast you posers are gonna consider moving to Africa for two years just so you can improve. I know EXACTLY the mindset Teut talks about because that wasn't league of legends mentality, that's just a healthy fucking view on life.
Teut dropped some god damn knowledge and most of you jabronis and if I was him I'd ban everyone under diamond 5 for 30 days just so they'd stop QQing and play the fucking game.
Wanna get better? Play inhouses. Play in the noob league. Duo with a friend who is better than you. Swallow your pride and take some criticism from the replay analysis thread. Ion't give a fuck, but quit clogging up my one connection to the game I love with your stupid ass crying.
I have read every GD post in the past twenty months and it's fucking hilarious how many of you have gone literally nowhere in your rankings. Obviously there's IRL shit or maybe you just play for fun, but if you've been trying to climb for the past two years and haven't gone anywhere - maybe it's time for a change.
Buncha fucking nincompoops, the lot of you.
#Teut4Mod
ps RIP roffles. Abrasive and intelligent, a dangerous combination.
pps TSM TSM TSM
HOLY SHIT IT'S JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON
How much catching up did you do wtf?
And what does NFL Blitzed means, allegory for "you're funnier when I'm high"? :|
As for the whole "bad at carrying" thing, + Show Spoiler [Too many words] +Teut managed not to warp my words in some intriguing way for once. I see one's Elo as his capacity to carry, as in "if you play average you'll stagnate, you climb up when you have a higher than average impact (in the positive sense obv.) on your games", so maybe somebody would be able to kinda hold his own and not fall back down in Plat III, but if he's only playing average (or slightly above) in Plat IV he won't climb up with just consistency and he needs to be more pro-active/impactful.
I'm able to edge out tiny or average leads, but my execution is bad and I tend to play conservative so I'm no good at snowballing (typical example, I'll drop the opponent to a 3rd of his health but by then the wave will be at his tower and he'll play scared, and whereas a bunch of players in the same situation would either have managed to outright kill the guy or can dive him and get out alive, I'll fail to exploit openings, or I'll botch the execution altogether (leading to them surviving to begin with, or me dying during the dive)). Even when I have better than average results (like a 30 cs lead and a kill) my impact won't be decisive because I'll fail at snowballing the lead further and my roams won't necessarily be fruitful (lack of experience from playing conservative and bad execution again).
What happens is I usually get these tiny leads from the jungle for example, and give them to my laners through ganks, deep warding, etc. but I'll rely on them to "land the decisive blow" on the enemy and snowball our tiny advantage into a full-blown lead. "Hey dude, I got you an early kill and an assist on LeBlanc, now please dumpster your opponent or roam some more, because that's usually the extent of my prowess".
That's also why I'm not a fan of picking stuff like Amumu "for the late game" from the jungle because I think I'm better off putting the lanes ahead early than to rely on myself doing the heavy lifting with big plays and calculated risks (botch% too high for this ¬¬). I was more of a Maokai guy in s2.
I'm not the guy who sees his opponent make a mistake and execute a combo and micro perfectly to get rolling then shit on both other lanes, I'm the guy who tries to put that one ahead then does his darndest to let him do his thing freely (hence why I like cc heavy/zoning champs).
You could say it's a mindset, I'm clearly not yoloing as much as I did earlier with stuff like Mundo/Malphite/Maokai/Udyr and I play to protect my team instead of burying the enemy. I should prob be less "scared" and learn to be more aggressive again so that I know my limits better, execute better from practice, and have a higher impact (but with a way higher variance at the beginning), it's just not natural to me anymore.
TL;DR: there's a reason why my best supports are Lulu and Leona rather than Annie or LB or Thresh.
Edit: about the "abusing my better game sense" part, Yango, I specifically refered to how in s2 I was ahead of most people I played against (and with) in that regard. Now people time buffs and drakes and actually think ahead instead of "oh I'm top and drake's in 10s" and they've got a better sense of timing regarding counterganks and how fast one can get where, etc.
(I'm saying they improve because my Elo's def not higher than it was near the end of s3, nor is my skill level, so it means the others got better on top of me stagnating/regressing)
Even if I wouldn't Flash a Riven ult or juke a point-blank Lee Sin Q then cc-interrupt his W in split-second reaction fashion, I'd often outplay people by anticipating their behaviour on a higher-level (don't need to aim a skillshot when the guy doesn't know you're here waiting to countergank, easier to sneak a drake when you know their jungler will tunnel vision on pushed top-lane and the support wasn't out of vision long enough to reach the pit in the last 2 minutes, etc.). People got better at that, especially in the jungle.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On May 20 2014 05:57 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 05:45 Diamond wrote:
I feel like the word "bad" is being thrown around quite a bit here without context.
If you say a gold player is "bad", what does that mean? Is he bad compared to the Top .1%? Bad compared to silver? Bad compared to bronze? Remember a MASSIVE amount of the LoL playerbase is Silver or below, being gold alone means you are either REALLY lucky with teamates (go play the lotto if you are that lucky), or you are better than most LoL players.
Anyone that below LCS level isn't just "bad", they are "bad" when compared to that level. Sorry bro. If you ain't faker. You're bad.
Get with the times, save is the best player in the world now.
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A player is good if he can prevent his team from flaming. And he is god if he is able to make them listen to advices.
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There are many skills that are involved in being "good". All of them boil down to winning more games. However, if you intend to improve, that is not really a helpful statement. Finding out where your own deficits lie is really important to actually improve.
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On May 20 2014 05:59 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 04:35 JonGalt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Holy fuck Alaric. You overthink things far too much for your skill level. I enjoy reading your posts (especially when I'm NFL blitzed), probably more than most, because the level of detail is the closest I can get to actually playing, or hell even watching the game. But you need to stop thinking about the meta, team comps, champions and just play the fucking game.
I can't wait to get back in December and climb to diamond so fast you posers are gonna consider moving to Africa for two years just so you can improve. I know EXACTLY the mindset Teut talks about because that wasn't league of legends mentality, that's just a healthy fucking view on life.
Teut dropped some god damn knowledge and most of you jabronis and if I was him I'd ban everyone under diamond 5 for 30 days just so they'd stop QQing and play the fucking game.
Wanna get better? Play inhouses. Play in the noob league. Duo with a friend who is better than you. Swallow your pride and take some criticism from the replay analysis thread. Ion't give a fuck, but quit clogging up my one connection to the game I love with your stupid ass crying.
I have read every GD post in the past twenty months and it's fucking hilarious how many of you have gone literally nowhere in your rankings. Obviously there's IRL shit or maybe you just play for fun, but if you've been trying to climb for the past two years and haven't gone anywhere - maybe it's time for a change.
Buncha fucking nincompoops, the lot of you.
#Teut4Mod
ps RIP roffles. Abrasive and intelligent, a dangerous combination.
pps TSM TSM TSM HOLY SHIT IT'S JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON How much catching up did you do wtf? And what does NFL Blitzed means, allegory for "you're funnier when I'm high"? :| As for the whole "bad at carrying" thing, + Show Spoiler [Too many words] +Teut managed not to warp my words in some intriguing way for once. I see one's Elo as his capacity to carry, as in "if you play average you'll stagnate, you climb up when you have a higher than average impact (in the positive sense obv.) on your games", so maybe somebody would be able to kinda hold his own and not fall back down in Plat III, but if he's only playing average (or slightly above) in Plat IV he won't climb up with just consistency and he needs to be more pro-active/impactful.
I'm able to edge out tiny or average leads, but my execution is bad and I tend to play conservative so I'm no good at snowballing (typical example, I'll drop the opponent to a 3rd of his health but by then the wave will be at his tower and he'll play scared, and whereas a bunch of players in the same situation would either have managed to outright kill the guy or can dive him and get out alive, I'll fail to exploit openings, or I'll botch the execution altogether (leading to them surviving to begin with, or me dying during the dive)). Even when I have better than average results (like a 30 cs lead and a kill) my impact won't be decisive because I'll fail at snowballing the lead further and my roams won't necessarily be fruitful (lack of experience from playing conservative and bad execution again).
What happens is I usually get these tiny leads from the jungle for example, and give them to my laners through ganks, deep warding, etc. but I'll rely on them to "land the decisive blow" on the enemy and snowball our tiny advantage into a full-blown lead. "Hey dude, I got you an early kill and an assist on LeBlanc, now please dumpster your opponent or roam some more, because that's usually the extent of my prowess".
That's also why I'm not a fan of picking stuff like Amumu "for the late game" from the jungle because I think I'm better off putting the lanes ahead early than to rely on myself doing the heavy lifting with big plays and calculated risks (botch% too high for this ¬¬). I was more of a Maokai guy in s2.
I'm not the guy who sees his opponent make a mistake and execute a combo and micro perfectly to get rolling then shit on both other lanes, I'm the guy who tries to put that one ahead then does his darndest to let him do his thing freely (hence why I like cc heavy/zoning champs).
You could say it's a mindset, I'm clearly not yoloing as much as I did earlier with stuff like Mundo/Malphite/Maokai/Udyr and I play to protect my team instead of burying the enemy. I should prob be less "scared" and learn to be more aggressive again so that I know my limits better, execute better from practice, and have a higher impact (but with a way higher variance at the beginning), it's just not natural to me anymore. TL;DR: there's a reason why my best supports are Lulu and Leona rather than Annie or LB or Thresh.
Your post sounds like what you're bad at is being the playmaker. That is, being able to recognize opportunities to initiate fights and/or being able to execute. Which, honestly, is kind of weird since you seem to be able to have some propensity for being able to recognize gank opportunities.
The phrase/idea of being "bad" or "bad at carrying" is just a very vague one and the usage of it just causes shitfests on what it means to be good or bad at the game.
Sidenote, I'm rather disappointed that the replay system still isn't up, since otherwise these discussions can be easily circumvented/solved with a simple "post your replays."
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On May 20 2014 05:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 05:43 Goumindong wrote:
Seeing that you lose more games when you're way ahead than you should lose (or that you piss away the lead) is a good indicator of where you can get better. Its not as good a descriptor of the issue as more specific ones which have already been examined but its still better than "not good enough" In this case, I don't think it is though. The skillset you're using to win games doesn't change because you have a lot of gold. It just puts more weight on your individual contribution to the game because by nature of being farmed and high level you have more influence over the outcome of the game as a whole and more weight is naturally put on errors you make because of this. Put a different way, people lose games when they're 10-0 not because they're bad at playing out the specific scenario of being 10-0, but because they're making the same errors they do in any other scenario and it impacts the game more because in this one they don't have teammates with a better tempo to bail them out. They then falsely attribute their losses to factors which may not really be of primary concern. Plus this isn't even relevant to the original discussion because this particular definition of "bad at carrying" isn't even how Alaric used the term.
Well it does though. Playing while ahead is not the same as playing while behind or while even, you have more latitude and must use it in order to have a better chance of winning that someone who isn't ahead. The decision making about what you can do is a different process than when you're either responding to the enemies actions, or trying to prevent what the enemy is doing.
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So seems like NiP is already a cut above the rest of the challenger scene after adding 2 completely new players to their roster not even 2 weeks ago. Well I guess having Alex, who's a proven beast and K0u, the best rookie jungler kinda helps in that regard.
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I remember seeing this number that FF junglers won 70% (???) of the time against non-FF junglers in Patch 4.5. Who made that figure?
In any case, as far as 4.6 is concerned, I see the following:
Win rate, FF/Wriggle Jungler vs non-FF/Wriggle Jungler 52.70%
Win rate, FF Jungler vs non-FF/Wriggle Jungler 60.15%
Win rate, Wriggle Jungler vs non-FF/Wriggle Jungler 29.04%
All the percentage are accurate within 1%.
So, in Patch 4.6, FF jungler wins 60.15% of the time against non-FF junglers. But this is biased because this assumes the jungler has done well enough to at least get the FF transformation. In fact, a good chunk of the games I see that the Wriggle never gets transformed - in those games, the Wriggle jungler only wins 29% of the time.
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Lots of people don't know how to close out games and that's their biggest weakness. Instead of going for inhib #2 or ending when they have a chance they go and do whatever else it is they feel like doing because they don't see the checkmate and then end up losing when the 0-10 vayne on the other team reaches 200 farm and gets a penta.
Knowing how to take advantage of being ahead is super important in this game, and the better you understand how to do it, the better protected you are against making those same mistakes on defense. It's all one thing, just different aspects of it.
IMPROVE YOUR BASIC GAME SENSE
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United States47024 Posts
On May 20 2014 06:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Lots of people don't know how to close out games and that's their biggest weakness. Instead of going for inhib #2 or ending when they have a chance they go and do whatever else it is they feel like doing because they don't see the checkmate and then end up losing when the 0-10 vayne on the other team reaches 200 farm and gets a penta.
There are two different kinds of "10-0 carry-the-game" kinds of scenarios here that I don't think people are specifying.
There's the "I'm 10-0 but the rest of my team's tempo is shit so I'm doing well but we're not winning". And there's the "I'm 10-0 and our whole team is doing well but we can't actually break base and win the game".
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EPT
