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On April 22 2014 08:44 LaNague wrote:
what a stupid name for an ability.
the pun is funny for half a second and then its just an annoying name.
Ill play this game again when riot decides to get the cheating under control, but i have little hope.They even start to endorse that curse cheat program when a year ago all automation was forbidden.
Maybe next year around this time we have little "aiming assists", too. Its ok, its bundled with a voice chat.
Calling a buff/dragon/baron timer a cheat is just silly. Any decent player already does it and anyone who doesn't wouldn't know what to do with it if they had it anyway. It's like getting upset that sc2 had a timer put in it so players could potentially prepare for something based on scouting and the time on the clock.
What actual cheating are you referring to and for that matter what official support of curse voice is Riot doing?
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Its kinda garbage to have an automatic timer. Its like a slightly less bs version of a macroing cheat that keeps all your production facilities building 1 unit at a time and all yall gots to do is turn them on/off.
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On April 22 2014 08:50 Parnage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 08:44 LaNague wrote:
what a stupid name for an ability.
the pun is funny for half a second and then its just an annoying name.
Ill play this game again when riot decides to get the cheating under control, but i have little hope.They even start to endorse that curse cheat program when a year ago all automation was forbidden.
Maybe next year around this time we have little "aiming assists", too. Its ok, its bundled with a voice chat. Calling a buff/dragon/baron timer a cheat is just silly. Any decent player already does it and anyone who doesn't wouldn't know what to do with it if they had it anyway. It's like getting upset that sc2 had a timer put in it so players could potentially prepare for something based on scouting and the time on the clock. What actual cheating are you referring to and for that matter what official support of curse voice is Riot doing?
those darn drophacks costing me my promos!!!!11!11!!1!!1!!1!
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On April 22 2014 08:50 Parnage wrote:
It's like getting upset that sc2 had a timer put in it so players could potentially prepare for something based on scouting and the time on the clock.
Yeah and nobody at all ever bitched about that oh wait
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On April 22 2014 09:02 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 08:50 Parnage wrote:
It's like getting upset that sc2 had a timer put in it so players could potentially prepare for something based on scouting and the time on the clock. Yeah and nobody at all ever bitched about that oh wait
People bitch about everything. If they started banning curse voice users you'd see people complaining about it. Hell if they changed something in the background on the loading screen you'd see people up in arms(oh wait they did and that happened) What's the point here?
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On April 22 2014 08:56 cLutZ wrote:
Its kinda garbage to have an automatic timer. Its like a slightly less bs version of a macroing cheat that keeps all your production facilities building 1 unit at a time and all yall gots to do is turn them on/off.
Baron and Dragon already time themselves via "player X has slain the Y".
Its not like it even changes anything. All it does it save the jungler 2s of typing while autoing wraiths. My give a shit level there is ridiculously low.
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On April 22 2014 03:13 TheYango wrote:
Implementing jungle as a place to put a carry should be something that is done with the fact that most "carry" farm in a game comes post-laning phase. Farming a jungle into a core role should involve allocation of lane farm--which the S3/S4 jungle items actually make incredibly problematic because there's no way to make the reverse transition smoothly.
The ideal scenario for a jungle "carry" is where you have a jungler that is a weak laner but is powerful with farm, and, say, a top laner who is a strong laner but transitions into a more defensive/supportive role in lategame fights, and once laning breaks down and you move into the jungler getting lane farm and transitioning into a higher farm priority. However, the way S3/S4 jungle items work, this fundamentally entails a loss in farming efficiency because the top laner can't farm jungle as efficiently, the jungler is wasting the jungling passives on his jungle items, and nobody is getting the free gold.
The problem was never laners taking jungle farm the way Riot envisioned it, it was finding a way to make the farm priority transition between the jungler and a laner after laning phase seamless and worthwhile--and by fixing what they falsely considered the problem, Riot actually ended up making that transition even harder and less worthwhile.
In my opinion, Feral Flare is a little overtuned, but not anywhere near as much as people seem to think. The problem comes from how we think about our junglers, rather than the item being strong.
If the enemy TOP LANE Jax farms 250cs by 20 minutes, we don't complain about how OP he (or Triforce) is, we just accept that "Jax got fed, he could have been shut down, but we didn't do a good enough job of it so now he will carry". Why can't the same be true for junglers?
The answer, I think, is because we've always known our junglers to be "second supports", so the idea of them being able to hard carry is strange to us. In Season 1, junglers like Warwick and Rammus were played, and ganked lanes to get their team mates fed. Season two was a lot of Skarner, Maokai and Cho'Gath who would control vision for their team, and play a tanky cc-bot role. Season 3 was more bruiser-ish junglers (Jarvan, Xin Zhao, Lee Sin) who would spend all of their gold on wards and aura items, get next to no farm (if playing what was eventually considered "optimal"), and just try to get their team doing well.
Since the beginning of competitive League of Legends, our junglers have been "those guys who give me blue buff and come to my lane to get me fed", and now that they're actually able to carry, everyone's up in arms about it.
If you let the enemy Jungler farm for 20 minutes, you deserve to lose the game, in the same way you would if you let a top lane Nasus do that. You gank, you counterjungle, you shut him down. Is it a bit harder to shut down a jungler than a laner? Maybe, or maybe we're just not used to having to do so yet.
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ur not supposed to copy paste from reddit onto tl this is supposed to be a superior website with better ideas and reasoning
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IIRC late S1 was also the last time where you could hard farm the jungle on champs like noct and come out with wriggles warmogs atmas. Having 2.5 seasons of mostly support junglers, especially since such a large subset of the population didn't ever know it existed, let alone experienced it has ingrained the idea that junglers are the roaming support, not another farmed position.
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On April 22 2014 08:56 cLutZ wrote:
Its kinda garbage to have an automatic timer. Its like a slightly less bs version of a macroing cheat that keeps all your production facilities building 1 unit at a time and all yall gots to do is turn them on/off.
This is the worst comparison ever. Timing buffs, which you can do yourself in like a second, vs a program that gives you perfect macro? What?
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On April 22 2014 09:18 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 03:13 TheYango wrote:
Implementing jungle as a place to put a carry should be something that is done with the fact that most "carry" farm in a game comes post-laning phase. Farming a jungle into a core role should involve allocation of lane farm--which the S3/S4 jungle items actually make incredibly problematic because there's no way to make the reverse transition smoothly.
The ideal scenario for a jungle "carry" is where you have a jungler that is a weak laner but is powerful with farm, and, say, a top laner who is a strong laner but transitions into a more defensive/supportive role in lategame fights, and once laning breaks down and you move into the jungler getting lane farm and transitioning into a higher farm priority. However, the way S3/S4 jungle items work, this fundamentally entails a loss in farming efficiency because the top laner can't farm jungle as efficiently, the jungler is wasting the jungling passives on his jungle items, and nobody is getting the free gold.
The problem was never laners taking jungle farm the way Riot envisioned it, it was finding a way to make the farm priority transition between the jungler and a laner after laning phase seamless and worthwhile--and by fixing what they falsely considered the problem, Riot actually ended up making that transition even harder and less worthwhile. In my opinion, Feral Flare is a little overtuned, but not anywhere near as much as people seem to think. The problem comes from how we think about our junglers, rather than the item being strong. If the enemy TOP LANE Jax farms 250cs by 20 minutes, we don't complain about how OP he (or Triforce) is, we just accept that "Jax got fed, he could have been shut down, but we didn't do a good enough job of it so now he will carry". Why can't the same be true for junglers? The answer, I think, is because we've always known our junglers to be "second supports", so the idea of them being able to hard carry is strange to us. In Season 1, junglers like Warwick and Rammus were played, and ganked lanes to get their team mates fed. Season two was a lot of Skarner, Maokai and Cho'Gath who would control vision for their team, and play a tanky cc-bot role. Season 3 was more bruiser-ish junglers (Jarvan, Xin Zhao, Lee Sin) who would spend all of their gold on wards and aura items, get next to no farm (if playing what was eventually considered "optimal"), and just try to get their team doing well. Since the beginning of competitive League of Legends, our junglers have been "those guys who give me blue buff and come to my lane to get me fed", and now that they're actually able to carry, everyone's up in arms about it. If you let the enemy Jungler farm for 20 minutes, you deserve to lose the game, in the same way you would if you let a top lane Nasus do that. You gank, you counterjungle, you shut him down. Is it a bit harder to shut down a jungler than a laner? Maybe, or maybe we're just not used to having to do so yet.
There is a lot of truth to this. Before if I was in mid and I saw particles coming from the enemy wraith camp, all I'd think is "okay if he ganks me it's going to come from that side of the screen", now I'm starting to think "holy fuck I'd better try to steal that big wraith".
Realistically though, the problem is that it doesn't take 20 minutes of farming for these hard carry junglers to suddenly emerge and carry. It only takes 10-15 minutes, and it's faster than Jax can do it from the top lane, to use your example. That's why I think FF is good in concept and after a nerf or two will be fine and healthy.
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'cept it's way harder to shut down a jungler than a laner. Even a passive, farm fest style laner has to interact with his opponent (well, sure, at some point Ziggs/Anivia/Lux say "fuck you" and don't anymore, but at least the first 5 levels I guess), while if currently Udyr decides to just flash farm his jungle, there's not much you can do because he's a very strong duelist early on and you can't get your team to pick strong enough early laners to invade him, nor can you get your allies to help in buying wards and setting up vision control to screw with his farming, ambush him, etc.
A ganking jungler like Alistar or Pantheon pre-s4? Yeah, sure, you could shut him down by stalking him and denying him ganks, you slow down your own farm so in a way you help him do his job but you know at some point he'll be useless compared to you.
A farming jungler? Unless he's weak as heck it's not going to be easy to shut him down, not to say "close to impossible" for the average soloQ team.
Also s3 bruisers got more than a little farm, it's just they had to work harder for it than gp5 s2 jungle. They clearly operated as position 4 champions though.
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Okay so Twitch visual update is fine (not needed, but fine), but the new names are just so fucking cringeworthy... expunge actually has a nice ring to it, now it's just some typical, sighworthy name.
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Well, only games that i am losing since 3/4 days are those where i'm heavyly counter jungled AND where all lanes are losing (even without being ganked). I usually try to make a counter gank between lvl 3 and 5, then i farm to 7, then i try to help the most that i can either top or mid+bot while farming up.
Then i reach lvl 11-12, and if my team isnt 15 kill behind, game is won.
Easy way : shyvana (hello 1v3-4 faceroll)
Medium way : mr yi (actually it's not that easy if you have no tank and your team isnt winning, but you can still manage to work it out) / udyr (if they lack of CC/dash/knoc out)
With those champ i usually reach 40 stacks of FF before 35-40 min, which close the game after one or two teamfights.
Hardest thing being : convince your teamates to farm near their tower early.
(from a gold lvl pov)
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I don't see a lot of talk about Rumble. I think he's going to be strong as fuck after this patch. I wish he was a champion I actually wanted to play.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 22 2014 09:26 Amui wrote:
IIRC late S1 was also the last time where you could hard farm the jungle on champs like noct and come out with wriggles warmogs atmas. Having 2.5 seasons of mostly support junglers, especially since such a large subset of the population didn't ever know it existed, let alone experienced it has ingrained the idea that junglers are the roaming support, not another farmed position.
None of that came out of pure jungle farm, it was largely through farm allocation from solo lanes.
On April 22 2014 09:27 Ketara wrote:
There is a lot of truth to this. Before if I was in mid and I saw particles coming from the enemy wraith camp, all I'd think is "okay if he ganks me it's going to come from that side of the screen", now I'm starting to think "holy fuck I'd better try to steal that big wraith".
Realistically though, the problem is that it doesn't take 20 minutes of farming for these hard carry junglers to suddenly emerge and carry. It only takes 10-15 minutes, and it's faster than Jax can do it from the top lane, to use your example. That's why I think FF is good in concept and after a nerf or two will be fine and healthy.
I just don't see why the concept of a jungler that takes a higher position farm priority can't just use the existing resource distribution scheme. Why does a jungler need free gold to be farmed into carry status? Why can't this be accomplished through alternative resource allocation? It's just adding a whole lot of nothing with that complexity because it's a state achievable within the existing rules of the game.
I could care less about people calling Feral Flare OP, I just see the S4 free gold mechanics as fundamentally counter to what I would consider good game design--they essentially exist to alter gold distribution in a way achievable by altering incentives within the existing system and do so by adding more complexity to the game.
TBH I have the same quip with trinkets. What actual gain is made from making trinkets exceptional by making them free and slot-less? None. If you balanced them as normal items that gave stats, you could make them such that people would buy them anyway. Making them free and slot-less only serves to add complexity to the game without adding depth that wasn't otherwise achievable.
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Curse voice is unfair as hell but only because of the fact that not everyone can have it.
Realistically, the Voice and teammates ult CD display should be in the game, but it isnt for some reason. The baron/dragon timers simply take existing information and displays it for the user easily (slightly unfair but I don't think it's a big advantage, but it certainly is one and is definitely a problem.
I've personally never gone into a soloq game where teammates are on voice and joined them.. because honestly who wants to get into a voice chat with a bunch of people you meet in soloq?
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On April 22 2014 09:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 09:26 Amui wrote:
IIRC late S1 was also the last time where you could hard farm the jungle on champs like noct and come out with wriggles warmogs atmas. Having 2.5 seasons of mostly support junglers, especially since such a large subset of the population didn't ever know it existed, let alone experienced it has ingrained the idea that junglers are the roaming support, not another farmed position. None of that came out of pure jungle farm, it was largely through farm allocation from solo lanes. Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 09:27 Ketara wrote:
There is a lot of truth to this. Before if I was in mid and I saw particles coming from the enemy wraith camp, all I'd think is "okay if he ganks me it's going to come from that side of the screen", now I'm starting to think "holy fuck I'd better try to steal that big wraith".
Realistically though, the problem is that it doesn't take 20 minutes of farming for these hard carry junglers to suddenly emerge and carry. It only takes 10-15 minutes, and it's faster than Jax can do it from the top lane, to use your example. That's why I think FF is good in concept and after a nerf or two will be fine and healthy.
I just don't see why the concept of a jungler that takes a higher position farm priority can't just use the existing resource distribution scheme. Why does a jungler need free gold to be farmed into carry status? Why can't this be accomplished through alternative resource allocation? It's just adding a whole lot of nothing with that complexity because it's a state achievable within the existing rules of the game. I could care less about people calling Feral Flare OP, I just see the S4 free gold mechanics as fundamentally counter to what I would consider good game design--they essentially exist to alter gold distribution in a way achievable by altering incentives within the existing system and do so by adding more complexity to the game. TBH I have the same quip with trinkets. What actual gain is made from making trinkets exceptional by making them free and slot-less? None. If you balanced them as normal items that gave stats, you could make them such that people would buy them anyway. Making them free and slot-less only serves to add complexity to the game without adding depth that wasn't otherwise achievable.
To use Brawl control scheme input analogies, its easier in the short run to balance combos on a superficial level by just deleting them from the game, or give characters access to an easy button to do everything so you don't have to think about it, rather than stick to good design principles and alter how interactions happen on a fundamental basis.
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United States47024 Posts
Oh I know that, doesn't mean I have to like it.
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i kind of like kassadin's shield being given strong scaling and base numbers, because it only lasts 1.5 seconds how effective it is will probably be determined mostly by player skill differences.
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EPT
