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[Patch 4.5] Rune Rework General Discussion - Page 22

Forum Index > LoL General
Post a Reply
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New Article: Interview with Chobra (OGN)
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
April 04 2014 19:01 GMT
#421
Anybody tried Feral Xin yet? I caught Nightblue's stream when he tried it and he said it seemed good but he was rusty so he can't tell yet.
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
April 04 2014 19:38 GMT
#422
On April 05 2014 03:58 nafta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2014 03:53 kongoline wrote:
but isnt losing 9 armor fatal in some cases ? i mean when facing something like riven or trynd top who often all in low level u will get crushed without the extra defence

It is all a plan to make you buy more rune pages and runes if you want to be optimal that all.

i got to the same conclusion too and i hate riot for doing this "change"
phyvo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5635 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-04 19:43:17
April 04 2014 19:40 GMT
#423
On April 05 2014 03:41 Alzadar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2014 03:37 phyvo wrote:
On April 05 2014 01:13 kongoline wrote:
cant wait till somebody does the math which seals are best right now, i see people using flat hp, scaling hp and scaling armor now and cant decide which ones to buy -.-


Flat HP seals give less value than flat HP quints (72 vs 78) and I've heard people ragging on flat HP quints, so I find it hard to imagine that flat hp seals are amazing (though of course there's a lot more good stuff to compete with in the quint slot). It's probably better than flat armor though. Scaling hp matches flat HP at level 6, for me personally that seemed good enough to go with scaling.

Scaling hp vs scaling armor, I think scaling hp wins again. On a level 18 Kog Maw scaling HP gives 30% more EHP vs 50:50 mixed damage than scaling armor. Meanwhile vs pure physical damage scaling armor gives just 20% more EHP than scaling health. Considering that Kog Maw should favor armor (he has average HP but below average armor), it seems to me that scaling armor is the more niche pick. I don't think it makes the cut for general-use pages.


Calculations please.

You really can't ignore lifesteal when talking about a level 18 ADC's EHP.


There is no realistic way to take lifesteal into account, IMO. You have to make too many assumptions about the fight, who your opponents are, how many people are attacking you, how itemized you are vs them, which all affect how many autos you can get off... it just opens a huge can of worms and I am simply not comfortable making those assumptions (I'd rather leave that to experience). There are other people who are comfortable with that but I prefer simpler numbers that say less over complicated numbers that will say more but are just as likely say the wrong thing. As a result the numbers I gave are the most basic possible and didn't even involve defensive items (though I did check them and it was still in favor of scaling HP overall unless your item was banshee's).

That said, thanks to you and Ketara for getting me to think about it more. Barrier alone basically makes scaling armor better, I had forgotten about it. QQ I bought the wrong runes for koggles.
"BE A MANGO TO SLEEP LIKE A SNORING TIGER" - Monte
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-04 19:48:28
April 04 2014 19:47 GMT
#424
There's a very easy way to take lifesteal into account.

Step 1 - Calculate the difference in EHP per point of health regenned for each armor value.

Step 2 - Calculate your DPS in an ideal situation (If you stand there autoattacking)

Step 3 - Figure out how much you HP you get from base regen and lifesteal per second based off that DPS.

That will give you an approximate idea of how many seconds you have to be DPSing for your lifesteal to make armor better than HP. If it's a low number (like 1-2 seconds), that tips the balance in favor of armor.

If armor is already better, then the lifesteal is making it even better than that.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6223 Posts
April 04 2014 20:32 GMT
#425
On April 05 2014 04:47 Ketara wrote:
There's a very easy way to take lifesteal into account.

Step 1 - Calculate the difference in EHP per point of health regenned for each armor value.

Step 2 - Calculate your DPS in an ideal situation (If you stand there autoattacking)

Step 3 - Figure out how much you HP you get from base regen and lifesteal per second based off that DPS.

That will give you an approximate idea of how many seconds you have to be DPSing for your lifesteal to make armor better than HP. If it's a low number (like 1-2 seconds), that tips the balance in favor of armor.

If armor is already better, then the lifesteal is making it even better than that.


Don't forget barrier and the fact that shields (lulu/janna/karma/lee sin etc) make armor vastly superior.
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-04 21:21:36
April 04 2014 20:51 GMT
#426
On April 05 2014 04:01 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody tried Feral Xin yet? I caught Nightblue's stream when he tried it and he said it seemed good but he was rusty so he can't tell yet.


I've tried it, it's really good, at least at plat 3 level. feral is a great alternative for Xin. He already has plenty of health sustain, so he can still stay full health in jungle with wriggles. He is an aa-based jungler, so naturally the on-hit is great for him. It gives more gold than the spirit items, and starting from the mid-game on it does more damage to both champions and jungle monsters. It's also 350g cheaper than any of the spirit items

The tradeoffs of using feral flame for aa-junglers is no mana regen, and no CDR.

For Xin, the mana regen is not a problem, as once he gets wriggle's he can clear the jungle just as fast using Q/W as he can spamming E. Also against the buffs and the wight, wriggle's/flame has a definite clear-speed advantage. So I don't really consider the lack of mana regen a big tradeoff.

So IMO the only real tradeoff is losing 10% CDR when going for wriggles. But for aa-junglers like Xin, you trade 10% CDR for:

-free ward
-350 more gold
-way better late-game scaling (Is there even a cap on feral flame stacks?), and I mean both jungle-scaling and teamfight-scaling. By the time you reach 6 items, flame will be doing so much damage you probably won't even want to sell it

I'm not sure if the gold generation of wriggles is better than conservation, I haven't played enough wriggles games yet.
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
April 04 2014 21:18 GMT
#427
On April 05 2014 04:38 kongoline wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2014 03:58 nafta wrote:
On April 05 2014 03:53 kongoline wrote:
but isnt losing 9 armor fatal in some cases ? i mean when facing something like riven or trynd top who often all in low level u will get crushed without the extra defence

It is all a plan to make you buy more rune pages and runes if you want to be optimal that all.

i got to the same conclusion too and i hate riot for doing this "change"


I think thats what most non-riot defenders/max IP people think. There is almost always an optimal set of runes, and if not blanket optimal, there are matchup optimal runes. This means that there is just an illusion of choice,
Freeeeeeedom
Kyrie
Profile Joined June 2013
1594 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-04 21:22:28
April 04 2014 21:21 GMT
#428
i think there's a decent diversity of rune options - recall for instance that one of faker's first claims to fame was his unique, ap heavy runing

of course, the composition of that diversity will change with rune changes, so the basic criticism of 'wake up sheeple they just want you to buy more pages' is still relevant
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
April 04 2014 21:38 GMT
#429
On April 05 2014 03:58 nafta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2014 03:53 kongoline wrote:
but isnt losing 9 armor fatal in some cases ? i mean when facing something like riven or trynd top who often all in low level u will get crushed without the extra defence

It is all a plan to make you buy more rune pages and runes if you want to be optimal that all.


Because nobody owns flat armour seals right now...?
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-04 21:48:19
April 04 2014 21:42 GMT
#430
That diversity has always been there, it's just that the nature of the rune system means that such diversity doesn't usually translate down to the average player's solo queue experience. Remember that not only does the average player not have maxed out rune pages and effectively unlimited rune selection--but he also cannot guarantee playing his role of choice in most games, or know as reliably his opponent in terms of champion pool, playstyle, etc. For the average player, they are largely seeking the most all-rounder set of runes--especially since when, with limited IP, buying more runes often doesn't feel as "fun" as buying new champions.

On April 05 2014 06:18 cLutZ wrote:
I think thats what most non-riot defenders/max IP people think. There is almost always an optimal set of runes, and if not blanket optimal, there are matchup optimal runes. This means that there is just an illusion of choice,

Having matchup-optimal runes still fills an important role that has to exist. It allows malleability of a given champion's early game strengths and weaknesses, which softens the effect of lane dominators and counterpicks--which in turn limits the influence of picking teamcomps this way, leading to an overall healthier game.

DotA does this with more granular starting item selection (since most of the starting items are far less expensive than the starting gold amount, there's more room to tailor your item selection to be matchup-specific). Since LoL cannot do this with the current item scheme, a form of pre-game stat adjustment needs to exist.
Moderator
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-04 21:45:26
April 04 2014 21:45 GMT
#431
double post
Moderator
GhandiEAGLE
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States20754 Posts
April 04 2014 21:51 GMT
#432
New Kingpin Twitch makes me regret not buying it. That skin is no joke anymore. Rest of the skins look a little off to me though.
Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
April 04 2014 22:08 GMT
#433
I think the biggest argument against rune diversity is that the barrier against getting new rune pages is a bit much. I don't get why the max number of rune pages is 20 or why they are so expensive, when mastery pages go to 25 and are free.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 04 2014 22:25 GMT
#434
Well they were a way to get people to spend money early on in the game's life--and at this point even if Riot doesn't need that anymore, it's hard to back out on runepages being as expensive as they are without pissing some people off.
Moderator
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
April 04 2014 22:31 GMT
#435
I would not mind 25 rune pages maximum
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Crusnik
Profile Joined December 2010
United States5378 Posts
April 04 2014 22:33 GMT
#436
The upped the number of mastery pages? I legit haven't played, aside from avoiding decay, for 2-3 months, but I thought the number of mastery pages was 20?
Steam: rook492
Nos-
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada12016 Posts
April 04 2014 22:44 GMT
#437
Do you guys know if pro players run as runes on vayne?
Bronze player stuck in platinum
Anakko
Profile Joined August 2012
France1934 Posts
April 04 2014 22:47 GMT
#438
I know it's a bit late, but I really like this URF mode, mostly because it reminds me of City of Tempest, a starcraft 2 arcade game that I used to play a LOT.
It was a lot of fun while it lasted, then the mapmaker left and the game died slowly as ppl stopped playing

You think heimer is bad? Here's some gameplay of one of the trolliest champions in the game, because those memories shouldn't die
TrAce/Cpt Jack for president (or both)
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
April 04 2014 22:50 GMT
#439
On April 05 2014 07:33 Crusnik wrote:
The upped the number of mastery pages? I legit haven't played, aside from avoiding decay, for 2-3 months, but I thought the number of mastery pages was 20?


Welcome to the 2013 season.

If rune pages went to 25 I'd buy 5 more.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
April 04 2014 23:04 GMT
#440
What? You can only have 20 mastery pages.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
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