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It also seems like a lot of people who think Lichbane didn't need to be nerfed are completely forgetting about the huge buff Lichbane got in season 3.
Prior to that buff, Lichbane users were never a problem; if they were, it was 'cause they were called Twisted Fate.
When you've had a revolving door of problematic Lichbane users like TF, Fizz, Ziggs who all needed nerfs to put them in line, plus you also start seeing shit like Lulu, who, let's be honest, isn't exactly your Lichbane user poster child, start picking up the item and dominating the meta, maybe you should nerf the one thing they all have in common rather than to continue playing whack-a-mole with champions that use Lichbane.
Lichbane was designed to supplement sustained damage AP champions who rely on auto attacks. Not to give you huge burst potential - that's what DFG is for. However, because of the S3 Lichbane changes, Lichbane became an item for burst potential, which isn't what it was designed for. Now, unintended effects of design can be fine, but when said unintended consequence starts causing repeated issues, then maybe it's time to address it.
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On March 18 2014 10:56 Ryuu314 wrote:
So yes, I suppose needing damage from you mid-laner is a meta thing, but that's precisely why Lulu is viable as a mid laner. Buffs to her passive plus a very strong Lichbane means she's stays relevant after blowing her ult+shield. Team comps can no longer rely on only 1 huge source of damage a la protect-the-kog comps. If saving people from AP assassins were all you needed, we'd be seeing a ton more Kayle, but we're not.
I'd also argue that Lulu wasn't nerfed to prevent AP lulu from becoming a thing. Rather, it was to remove the disgusting matchup that was top Lulu versus anything melee.
32% of LCS games pick/banned isn't a lot? for two champs that occupy a similar role to be picked or banned almost 75% of the time should show something yes?
Just because the item is most effective on utility/mobility characters doesn't mean that the item is the problem.
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I still think they nerfed lichbane because it is annoying to balance ap casters with lichbane in the game, unless you balance them around lichbane.
Like how many Rioters looked at the Lulu buffs, and said to themselves, "Brace yourselves, AP Lulu mid is coming." Zero? One? No, they made the changes to, in their minds, let support Lulus have a use for the increased gold income that they perceived that they would be getting due to the S4 changes that didn't conflict with their desire to differentiate supports from mages. So they said, "Aha, we will insert these AP ratios that give utility (and they can be high because the supports will only get a little anyways) to placate these annoying and loud support players that don't want to play Annie all day."
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On March 18 2014 11:06 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 10:56 Ryuu314 wrote:
So yes, I suppose needing damage from you mid-laner is a meta thing, but that's precisely why Lulu is viable as a mid laner. Buffs to her passive plus a very strong Lichbane means she's stays relevant after blowing her ult+shield. Team comps can no longer rely on only 1 huge source of damage a la protect-the-kog comps. If saving people from AP assassins were all you needed, we'd be seeing a ton more Kayle, but we're not.
I'd also argue that Lulu wasn't nerfed to prevent AP lulu from becoming a thing. Rather, it was to remove the disgusting matchup that was top Lulu versus anything melee. 32% of LCS games pick/banned isn't a lot? for two champs that occupy a similar role to be picked or banned almost 75% of the time should show something yes? Just because the item is most effective on utility/mobility characters doesn't mean that the item is the problem.
Are you forgetting about the fact that Kayle got nerfed hard around week 7~8? And how post-nerf she's seen very very little play? Most of the Kayle picks in LCS were pre-nerf after people picked up on the fact that Q+E+*gasp*Lichbane proc is insane damage.
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stop nerfing thresh please, he's been fine for a while. Leona is worse to deal with than thresh D:
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On March 18 2014 11:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:06 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:56 Ryuu314 wrote:
So yes, I suppose needing damage from you mid-laner is a meta thing, but that's precisely why Lulu is viable as a mid laner. Buffs to her passive plus a very strong Lichbane means she's stays relevant after blowing her ult+shield. Team comps can no longer rely on only 1 huge source of damage a la protect-the-kog comps. If saving people from AP assassins were all you needed, we'd be seeing a ton more Kayle, but we're not.
I'd also argue that Lulu wasn't nerfed to prevent AP lulu from becoming a thing. Rather, it was to remove the disgusting matchup that was top Lulu versus anything melee. 32% of LCS games pick/banned isn't a lot? for two champs that occupy a similar role to be picked or banned almost 75% of the time should show something yes? Just because the item is most effective on utility/mobility characters doesn't mean that the item is the problem. Are you forgetting about the fact that Kayle got nerfed hard around week 7~8? And how post-nerf she's seen very very little play? Most of the Kayle picks in LCS were pre-nerf after people picked up on the fact that Q+E+*gasp*Lichbane proc is insane damage.
and are you forgetting how kneejerk players are to seeing a nerf?
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On March 18 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:
Saying the issue with Lulu isn't lichbane doesn't make it not the issue with the revolving door of lichbane users being an issue. just like when you have stomach cancer you should take medicine to prevent the bleeding as your priority i agree. :/
The more appropriate anology is that if you're trying to lose weight, not eating vanilla or chocolate or chocochip mint isn't going to help. Just stop fucking eating icecream.
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On March 18 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:
Saying the issue with Lulu isn't lichbane doesn't make it not the issue with the revolving door of lichbane users being an issue. just like when you have stomach cancer you should take medicine to prevent the bleeding as your priority i agree. :/
Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but that actually would be the best idea, bleeding to death happens a lot faster than stomach cancer
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On March 18 2014 11:16 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On March 18 2014 11:06 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:56 Ryuu314 wrote:
So yes, I suppose needing damage from you mid-laner is a meta thing, but that's precisely why Lulu is viable as a mid laner. Buffs to her passive plus a very strong Lichbane means she's stays relevant after blowing her ult+shield. Team comps can no longer rely on only 1 huge source of damage a la protect-the-kog comps. If saving people from AP assassins were all you needed, we'd be seeing a ton more Kayle, but we're not.
I'd also argue that Lulu wasn't nerfed to prevent AP lulu from becoming a thing. Rather, it was to remove the disgusting matchup that was top Lulu versus anything melee. 32% of LCS games pick/banned isn't a lot? for two champs that occupy a similar role to be picked or banned almost 75% of the time should show something yes? Just because the item is most effective on utility/mobility characters doesn't mean that the item is the problem. Are you forgetting about the fact that Kayle got nerfed hard around week 7~8? And how post-nerf she's seen very very little play? Most of the Kayle picks in LCS were pre-nerf after people picked up on the fact that Q+E+*gasp*Lichbane proc is insane damage. and are you forgetting how kneejerk players are to seeing a nerf?
It's been a month since the nerf and Kayles been pick/banned in only 7 out of 48 LCS games. Plus she saw (iirc) 0 play at IEM.
I'm too lazy to check, but I'm also pretty sure Kayle saw next to no play in OGN, as well.
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On March 18 2014 11:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:
Saying the issue with Lulu isn't lichbane doesn't make it not the issue with the revolving door of lichbane users being an issue. just like when you have stomach cancer you should take medicine to prevent the bleeding as your priority i agree. :/ Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but that actually would be the best idea, bleeding to death happens a lot faster than stomach cancer
bleeding doesn't start until late stage 2 early stage 3, once the cancer has spread to nearby organs. you need immediate treatment for the cancer when you have internal bleeding from stomach cancer. if you wait past that it becomes a quality of life question rather than a life question. thats how my Grandfather died. his doctors focused on stopping the bleeding instead of the cancer.
On March 18 2014 11:24 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:16 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On March 18 2014 11:06 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:56 Ryuu314 wrote:
So yes, I suppose needing damage from you mid-laner is a meta thing, but that's precisely why Lulu is viable as a mid laner. Buffs to her passive plus a very strong Lichbane means she's stays relevant after blowing her ult+shield. Team comps can no longer rely on only 1 huge source of damage a la protect-the-kog comps. If saving people from AP assassins were all you needed, we'd be seeing a ton more Kayle, but we're not.
I'd also argue that Lulu wasn't nerfed to prevent AP lulu from becoming a thing. Rather, it was to remove the disgusting matchup that was top Lulu versus anything melee. 32% of LCS games pick/banned isn't a lot? for two champs that occupy a similar role to be picked or banned almost 75% of the time should show something yes? Just because the item is most effective on utility/mobility characters doesn't mean that the item is the problem. Are you forgetting about the fact that Kayle got nerfed hard around week 7~8? And how post-nerf she's seen very very little play? Most of the Kayle picks in LCS were pre-nerf after people picked up on the fact that Q+E+*gasp*Lichbane proc is insane damage. and are you forgetting how kneejerk players are to seeing a nerf? It's been a month since the nerf and Kayles been pick/banned in only 7 out of 48 LCS games. Plus she saw (iirc) 0 play at IEM. I'm too lazy to check, but I'm also pretty sure Kayle saw next to no play in OGN, as well.
Yes. and lulu began being picked once kayle dropped off. they perform the same role for the team, except one got buffed and the other got nerfed.
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On March 18 2014 11:26 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On March 18 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:
Saying the issue with Lulu isn't lichbane doesn't make it not the issue with the revolving door of lichbane users being an issue. just like when you have stomach cancer you should take medicine to prevent the bleeding as your priority i agree. :/ Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but that actually would be the best idea, bleeding to death happens a lot faster than stomach cancer bleeding doesn't start until late stage 2 early stage 3, once the cancer has spread to nearby organs. you need immediate treatment for the cancer when you have internal bleeding from stomach cancer. if you wait past that it becomes a quality of life question rather than a life question. thats how my Grandfather died. his doctors focused on stopping the bleeding instead of the cancer. Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On March 18 2014 11:16 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On March 18 2014 11:06 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:56 Ryuu314 wrote:
So yes, I suppose needing damage from you mid-laner is a meta thing, but that's precisely why Lulu is viable as a mid laner. Buffs to her passive plus a very strong Lichbane means she's stays relevant after blowing her ult+shield. Team comps can no longer rely on only 1 huge source of damage a la protect-the-kog comps. If saving people from AP assassins were all you needed, we'd be seeing a ton more Kayle, but we're not.
I'd also argue that Lulu wasn't nerfed to prevent AP lulu from becoming a thing. Rather, it was to remove the disgusting matchup that was top Lulu versus anything melee. 32% of LCS games pick/banned isn't a lot? for two champs that occupy a similar role to be picked or banned almost 75% of the time should show something yes? Just because the item is most effective on utility/mobility characters doesn't mean that the item is the problem. Are you forgetting about the fact that Kayle got nerfed hard around week 7~8? And how post-nerf she's seen very very little play? Most of the Kayle picks in LCS were pre-nerf after people picked up on the fact that Q+E+*gasp*Lichbane proc is insane damage. and are you forgetting how kneejerk players are to seeing a nerf? It's been a month since the nerf and Kayles been pick/banned in only 7 out of 48 LCS games. Plus she saw (iirc) 0 play at IEM. I'm too lazy to check, but I'm also pretty sure Kayle saw next to no play in OGN, as well. Yes. and lulu began being picked once kayle dropped off. they perform the same role for the team, except one got buffed and the other got nerfed.
nope, Lulu got buffed in v3.14~v3.15 and Kayle got nerfed in v.4.2. Lulu started seeing play as a solo laner as early as Week 4 in the EU LCS, long before the Kayle nerfs.
I even remember Monte talking about the strengths of carry Lulu over a month ago in one of his little Rift Review thingies.
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On March 18 2014 11:26 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On March 18 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:
Saying the issue with Lulu isn't lichbane doesn't make it not the issue with the revolving door of lichbane users being an issue. just like when you have stomach cancer you should take medicine to prevent the bleeding as your priority i agree. :/ Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but that actually would be the best idea, bleeding to death happens a lot faster than stomach cancer bleeding doesn't start until late stage 2 early stage 3, once the cancer has spread to nearby organs. you need immediate treatment for the cancer when you have internal bleeding from stomach cancer. if you wait past that it becomes a quality of life question rather than a life question. thats how my Grandfather died. his doctors focused on stopping the bleeding instead of the cancer.
In which case why are you complaining that they are dealing with the cancer(Lichbane) instead of the bleeding(Lulu)?
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On March 18 2014 11:34 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:26 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On March 18 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:
Saying the issue with Lulu isn't lichbane doesn't make it not the issue with the revolving door of lichbane users being an issue. just like when you have stomach cancer you should take medicine to prevent the bleeding as your priority i agree. :/ Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but that actually would be the best idea, bleeding to death happens a lot faster than stomach cancer bleeding doesn't start until late stage 2 early stage 3, once the cancer has spread to nearby organs. you need immediate treatment for the cancer when you have internal bleeding from stomach cancer. if you wait past that it becomes a quality of life question rather than a life question. thats how my Grandfather died. his doctors focused on stopping the bleeding instead of the cancer. In which case why are you complaining that they are dealing with the cancer(Lichbane) instead of the bleeding(Lulu)?
LOL. okay. because clearly the problem is one of those two. LOL
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lulu would be fine without lich bane wtf. it's not like that lich bane build is what makes lulu that good. But lich bane IS needed on fizz, tf, kayle etc. so they're just neutering those champs while keeping lulu, lb, gragas, ziggs, etc. perfectly fine.
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On March 18 2014 11:36 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:34 Gahlo wrote:On March 18 2014 11:26 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On March 18 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:
Saying the issue with Lulu isn't lichbane doesn't make it not the issue with the revolving door of lichbane users being an issue. just like when you have stomach cancer you should take medicine to prevent the bleeding as your priority i agree. :/ Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but that actually would be the best idea, bleeding to death happens a lot faster than stomach cancer bleeding doesn't start until late stage 2 early stage 3, once the cancer has spread to nearby organs. you need immediate treatment for the cancer when you have internal bleeding from stomach cancer. if you wait past that it becomes a quality of life question rather than a life question. thats how my Grandfather died. his doctors focused on stopping the bleeding instead of the cancer. In which case why are you complaining that they are dealing with the cancer(Lichbane) instead of the bleeding(Lulu)? LOL. okay. because clearly the problem is one of those two. LOL
Lulu mid is a problem. Doesn't matter if you look at it from "She's a support, she should be in the bush placing wards!" or "Yo, dis champ is busting butts in mid too easily." So how do you deal with her being mid that won't hurt her as a support? You can't hit her utility because that hurts her at support and can't hit her bases/scaling because she supposedly does poop for damage without Lichbane.
It's been an issue with TF, Fizz, Kayle, Ahri(before DFG became popular), and Kassadin.
It's like saying "We stopped the bleeding!" 5 times.
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I think that I should clarify that I don't think Lichbane is the only reason why Lulu is a problem. I think she needs more/other nerfs as well, probably a revert on her passive buff.
However, I do think the strength of Lichbane is an issue and should be nerfed given how many champions the item has "pushed over the edge" in the past. Nerfing Lichbane and buffing traditional Lichbane users to compensate is a good place to start looking at what changes need to be made, if any, to bring champions like Lulu into line.
I also said it earlier, but I'll reiterate. It's important to realize that Riot said that they never intended Lichbane to be an item for burst damage, but rather for sustained damage on mages that rely on autos. DFG has always been the intended AP burst item. The issue is that Lichbane post-season 3 changes is so strong that it serves the dual function of increasing sustained AP dps AND increasing burst damage by a large margin.
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On March 18 2014 11:46 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:36 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:34 Gahlo wrote:On March 18 2014 11:26 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On March 18 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:
Saying the issue with Lulu isn't lichbane doesn't make it not the issue with the revolving door of lichbane users being an issue. just like when you have stomach cancer you should take medicine to prevent the bleeding as your priority i agree. :/ Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but that actually would be the best idea, bleeding to death happens a lot faster than stomach cancer bleeding doesn't start until late stage 2 early stage 3, once the cancer has spread to nearby organs. you need immediate treatment for the cancer when you have internal bleeding from stomach cancer. if you wait past that it becomes a quality of life question rather than a life question. thats how my Grandfather died. his doctors focused on stopping the bleeding instead of the cancer. In which case why are you complaining that they are dealing with the cancer(Lichbane) instead of the bleeding(Lulu)? LOL. okay. because clearly the problem is one of those two. LOL Lulu mid is a problem. Doesn't matter if you look at it from "She's a support, she should be in the bush placing wards!" or "Yo, dis champ is busting butts in mid too easily." So how do you deal with her being mid that won't hurt her as a support? You can't hit her utility because that hurts her at support and can't hit her bases/scaling because she supposedly does poop for damage without Lichbane. It's been an issue with TF, Fizz, Kayle, Ahri(before DFG became popular), and Kassadin. It's like saying "We stopped the bleeding!" 5 times.
IS there a problem with lulu being a utility mid champion?
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On March 18 2014 11:47 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:46 Gahlo wrote:On March 18 2014 11:36 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:34 Gahlo wrote:On March 18 2014 11:26 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On March 18 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:
Saying the issue with Lulu isn't lichbane doesn't make it not the issue with the revolving door of lichbane users being an issue. just like when you have stomach cancer you should take medicine to prevent the bleeding as your priority i agree. :/ Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but that actually would be the best idea, bleeding to death happens a lot faster than stomach cancer bleeding doesn't start until late stage 2 early stage 3, once the cancer has spread to nearby organs. you need immediate treatment for the cancer when you have internal bleeding from stomach cancer. if you wait past that it becomes a quality of life question rather than a life question. thats how my Grandfather died. his doctors focused on stopping the bleeding instead of the cancer. In which case why are you complaining that they are dealing with the cancer(Lichbane) instead of the bleeding(Lulu)? LOL. okay. because clearly the problem is one of those two. LOL Lulu mid is a problem. Doesn't matter if you look at it from "She's a support, she should be in the bush placing wards!" or "Yo, dis champ is busting butts in mid too easily." So how do you deal with her being mid that won't hurt her as a support? You can't hit her utility because that hurts her at support and can't hit her bases/scaling because she supposedly does poop for damage without Lichbane. It's been an issue with TF, Fizz, Kayle, Ahri(before DFG became popular), and Kassadin. It's like saying "We stopped the bleeding!" 5 times. IS there a problem with lulu being a utility mid champion?
Did I say there was?
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Can we not make cancer jokes, its kind of offensive and not really applicable. Stick with fat people ice cream analogy pls.
Anyways, if you've got late-stage metastatic cancer, you're probably dead anyways.
Anyways (again) Lulu mid was fine. Even buying Lich Bane for the extra AP ratio only makes her damage adequate. Her utility is definitely great (especially with added levels and AP scaling), but she still has significantly less damage than other mids. Just play Veigar or something against her and blow stuff up and laugh at her. She was fine, but Riot's philosophy is that it has to kneejerk nerf everything before players come out with it, which further encourages players to depend on kneejerk nerfs which preserve the meta they have a loe/hate relationship with.
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On March 18 2014 11:50 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 11:47 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:46 Gahlo wrote:On March 18 2014 11:36 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:34 Gahlo wrote:On March 18 2014 11:26 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 11:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On March 18 2014 10:51 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 18 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:
Saying the issue with Lulu isn't lichbane doesn't make it not the issue with the revolving door of lichbane users being an issue. just like when you have stomach cancer you should take medicine to prevent the bleeding as your priority i agree. :/ Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but that actually would be the best idea, bleeding to death happens a lot faster than stomach cancer bleeding doesn't start until late stage 2 early stage 3, once the cancer has spread to nearby organs. you need immediate treatment for the cancer when you have internal bleeding from stomach cancer. if you wait past that it becomes a quality of life question rather than a life question. thats how my Grandfather died. his doctors focused on stopping the bleeding instead of the cancer. In which case why are you complaining that they are dealing with the cancer(Lichbane) instead of the bleeding(Lulu)? LOL. okay. because clearly the problem is one of those two. LOL Lulu mid is a problem. Doesn't matter if you look at it from "She's a support, she should be in the bush placing wards!" or "Yo, dis champ is busting butts in mid too easily." So how do you deal with her being mid that won't hurt her as a support? You can't hit her utility because that hurts her at support and can't hit her bases/scaling because she supposedly does poop for damage without Lichbane. It's been an issue with TF, Fizz, Kayle, Ahri(before DFG became popular), and Kassadin. It's like saying "We stopped the bleeding!" 5 times. IS there a problem with lulu being a utility mid champion? Did I say there was?
the problem is that those champions are exceptionally hard to "balance" in the way riot views balance. because they are strong or even necessary in a certain meta doesn't make them imbalanced or overpowered. but for riot to argue that they love counterplay and then to bash an entire group of champions with nerfs over and over because they don't know how to balance utility and mobility properly while staying in their whole everyone has the same powercurve thing they like, is absolutely dumb. and its insane that people buy into "the fix what we can see ignore the underlying issue" style of balance being done lately.
There is a way to balance the game riot wants, but you can't allow characters to have that much utility and mobility without making their use dichotomous. not every champion will be used in any meta, thats obvious and not the goal.
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EPT
