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On March 23 2014 11:43 IMoperator wrote:
does anyone think a double lifesteal with last whisper build path for an adc would work in this meta? Basically just stay alive and do more damage than the other adc overall in fights, and live longer through sheer lifesteal? Thinking about trying out a BT -> LW -> Bork build, and then adding in an IE and defensive item after that. Thoughts?
Ignite.
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With upcoming changes heal will remove ignite debuff. That kind of requires trusting your support tho and we all know how duo lanes actually operate.
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On March 23 2014 12:38 phyvo wrote:
With upcoming changes heal will remove ignite debuff. That kind of requires trusting your support tho and we all know how duo lanes actually operate.
With that kind of changes Soraka is going to be pretty broken.
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On March 23 2014 12:35 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 11:43 IMoperator wrote:
does anyone think a double lifesteal with last whisper build path for an adc would work in this meta? Basically just stay alive and do more damage than the other adc overall in fights, and live longer through sheer lifesteal? Thinking about trying out a BT -> LW -> Bork build, and then adding in an IE and defensive item after that. Thoughts? Ignite.
only a sith deals in absolutes
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Speaking of Heal removing the Ignite debuff.
You guys are always harping on me for always loving everything Riot does and asking me to list things they do that I don't like.
I REALLY don't like them changing Heal in this way. Not the Ignite thing, I don't really give a fuck about that, but the making it only affect 2 people thing.
If you guys want to talk about Riot homogenizing shit, lets talk about changing Heal to only affect two people.
In fact, lets turn this into a rant and discuss summoners in general.
In my mind, the point of summoners (as well as the point of runes and masteries) is to give meaningful choices to the player. If one loadout is unarguably the best all of the time, then there's no point in providing the player with a choice, because if you DON'T choose the optimal configuration you do worse, and it becomes this thing where idiots who don't take Flash are in bronze and people who take Flash aren't in bronze.
I mention Flash in this example because it's an example that's pretty true to the actual game. You take Flash. If you don't you're bad, excepting the very few champions who have kits that allow them to take Ghost instead, or if you're doing something real cheesy like smite ignite Shaco jungle or whatever.
So, realistically one of your summoner slots is already taken up by Flash. This inhibits player choice, but in this case I can see the argument that the benefit outweighs the drawback here, for a number of reasons. First off, you have two summoner spells, so you still have choice in summoners, just not as much. And second off, Flash is really kind of an awesome spell that allows people to outplay each other, makes for great esports moments and spectator experiences, etc. Flash is awesome and one of the things that makes LoL as good as it is, I think.
So, I'll concede the idea that everybody but Olaf and Fizz or whatever has to take Flash. What does this have to do with Heal though? I'm getting there, I just wanted to establish that choice is important and players only have one summoner spell slot to choose from.
For your second summoner spell slot, in most roles most of the time we've boiled it down to a small number of potential options. Smite is a requirement for junglers (which I think is retarded but it's not part of this post, I'll bitch about it if asked promise!), but for other lanes we've got:
Solo laners usually have a choice between Teleport or Ignite. Ignite helps you win your own lane, and Teleport helps you pressure other lanes, very simple.
Some solo laners additionally use at times Barrier (AP mids without escapes like Barrier a lot), and on more rare occasions Ghost (split pushers like Vlad sometimes run Ghost Flash) or Exhaust (Karthus?)
ADCs basically only run Barrier, which I think is kind of lame, but it makes a lot of logical sense. I can concede that there is a possibility that some ADCs may choose the new Heal instead, but I'm not very hopeful.
Supports basically have a choice between Exhaust and Ignite, either a defensive summoner or an offensive one.
So where the fuck does Heal come into this? That's kind of the point I'm trying to make here. Heal is a defensive summoner that, while laning at least, has a lot in common with Barrier and Exhaust.
People like Barrier more than Heal for two reasons. First, Ignite > Heal but Barrier > Ignite (in simple terms). Secondly, in a solo lane Barrier is just better than Heal, and in a duo lane coordinated players in a fight will focus one target at a time, so only one of the two people is typically in danger at any given moment. Therefor, if you want defensive summoners, the expected focus target (ADC) takes Barrier, and the other guy (support) takes Exhaust, which protects the ADC better than Heal does.
When compared with Exhaust, the new Heal can be used to save somebody else other than yourself, but Exhaust has pretty much the exact same application. What this means is that defensively, Heal is either going to be better than Exhaust, or not better.
Or, put in another way. The choice a solo laner has between Ignite and Teleport is a good choice from a design perspective. Choice A helps you win your own lane, and choice B helps you win the other lanes. They're different enough that neither choice can be unarguably wrong, so the players decision is a meaningful one. There's no meaningful choice with the new Heal (key word meaningful) because you're just going to pick the better defensive summoner, so giving the player a choice at all is stupid.
This is what I mean by Riot is homogenizing summoners when they change Heal to only effect two people.
Now, the current heals your whole team Heal is actually a really cool spell, and it's different from all of the above. Heal is a spell that is bad for laning, and amazing in 5v5's. In a 5v5 situation it gives a much bigger benefit in terms of raw numbers than Barrier, and often than Exhaust as well (although a well timed Exhaust can be a big deal). Riot admitted that they couldn't balance that, so instead of trying to they decided to make Heal more like Barrier and Exhaust.
I think that the way to balance it is not to mess with Heal at all (although I will give my proposed solution below), but to make cheesy 5 mid tower rush strats more doable. I'm not sure how you'd do that, but those are the sorts of games where Heal is a big priority (Heal is GREAT in ARAM) so it seems to me if you want to encourage Heal you encourage those sorts of games. Instead, they are changing Heal into Barrier #2.
I don't WANT Barrier #2 as a summoner spell. If you're going to do that, just remove Heal from the game because I don't want to deal with stupid people picking the wrong one of whichever one is better. Or put in another way, if my choice is between Barrier and Heal, that's a choice, but it doesn't feel to me like a meaningful choice because I'm choosing between two spells that do the same goddamn thing.
What I want is for Heal to have the use that it has now, and be that 5v5 teamfight summoner. I don't have the answer to how to make that work, but what I'd LIKE to see is for Heal to be combined with Clarity. Clarity is stupid and nobody uses it ever, and realistically it should just be removed from the game anyway, so why not make Heal and Clarity the same thing. Instead of healing your team for 345, change it to 300 (or whatever number is balanced) and have it also give everyone on your team 300 mana (again, numbers can be balanced, the point is the idea.)
Now not only is Heal an awesome siege focused summoner, but it could also be used in a lot of lanes. Ziggs mid? Now you have a choice between Barrier or Heal, because while Barrier is better defensively, Heal also giving mana gives it offensive applications. In a duo lane an ADC or support who have mana issues might actually think about taking Heal. They can't take Clarity right now because then they get all inned and die, but Heal giving some HP and some mana would make it a hopefully attractive option in certain situations.
So,
tl;dr
Changing Heal to only affect two people makes it similar enough to Barrier and Exhaust that people will just take whichever they think is better at being a defensive summoner, so while they have a choice, it's not a meaningful choice. They are homogenizing summoner spells and I'd prefer they just remove Heal altogether.
What I'd like to see MUCH more is them reducing the Healing amount and combining it with Clarity so they're one spell that gives the team both HP and MP. This would make Heal functionally different from other summoners, remove Clarity from the game which as is is useless and stupid, and also make Heal hopefully an attractive option on some champions, thereby increasing meaningful player choices rather than reducing them.
/rant
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Baa?21245 Posts
Of all the things to complain about, this is probably one of the most asinine.
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take your post and stick it
somewhere safe
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With the way it removes healing reduction, it's going to be broken on Soraka and ignored for pretty much everyone else, unfortunately. I can see its perks, but it feels situational.
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Exactly. It'll either be the best defensive option or not the best defensive option, and that's dumb and binary, when the Heal we have right now is interesting and different, but it's not taken because the type of team strategy where it's good is one that isn't viable.
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Poll: Did you read all of that?TSM (20) 54% Yes. (11) 30% No. (6) 16% 37 total votes Your vote: Did you read all of that? (Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): TSM
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So question of curiosity.
With the new heal changes the only debuffs that it will remove are the debuffs that affect healing is that right? It won't remove all debuffs will it? Because that would seem a little overpowered. And not to mention too, if heal removed all debuffs you could literally just heal yourself after you've been ignited and nullify the ignite entirely.
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On March 23 2014 12:35 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 11:43 IMoperator wrote:
does anyone think a double lifesteal with last whisper build path for an adc would work in this meta? Basically just stay alive and do more damage than the other adc overall in fights, and live longer through sheer lifesteal? Thinking about trying out a BT -> LW -> Bork build, and then adding in an IE and defensive item after that. Thoughts? Ignite.
Always makes me happy when an ADC goes a build like that cause it just means less crit and less overall damage while still being just as squishy
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Is flash really that much of a must? I usually play Shyvana and Leona with Exhaust\Ignite, and it doesn't seem that bad.
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There's very few circumstances where bt -> botrk or vice versa on an adc is superior to one of those into AS/crit or LW. Also, the effective lifesteal you're getting is far lower since your DPS takes a decent dip.
There's very few circumstances where I've ever gone double lifesteal on an AD and those are generally one of two scenarios in my experience:
Ezreal: Have BT, Triforce, LW, boots, -> Get botrk as a "defensive" item.
Sivir: BT -> PD -> LW -> Botrk
In both cases, I'm not in danger of dying unless I seriously misplay and in general, I will not be bursted down if I use my skills correctly. It's essentially relying on my mechanics to compensate for the fact that I will not have a QSS or banshees to bail me out of something I don't react to in time.
I'll essentially never go LS item into LS item, that's pretty much always a poor move.
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Crit in itself is also a life steal stat.
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The tldr was too long to read.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On March 23 2014 15:52 SagaZ wrote:Poll: Did you read all of that?TSM (20) 54% Yes. (11) 30% No. (6) 16% 37 total votes Your vote: Did you read all of that? (Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): TSM
On March 22 2014 04:52 Roffles wrote:
TSM blows
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On March 23 2014 17:30 TokO wrote:
Is flash really that much of a must? I usually play Shyvana and Leona with Exhaust\Ignite, and it doesn't seem that bad.
I think you could get away without it on some champs, but on the vast majority, it's simply too good.
Aside from obvious examples like Annie and Galio, who need it to set up fights, Flash also makes it possible to survive an extra gank from all these hyper mobile junglers. If you're someone like me, who generally plays non-mobile mages, it's a requirement when champs like Vi exist.
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On March 23 2014 17:30 TokO wrote:
Is flash really that much of a must? I usually play Shyvana and Leona with Exhaust\Ignite, and it doesn't seem that bad.
Yes, basically if you can get away with anything else you are playing against horrible people, gimping yourself severely, or lucking out on cheese. Shyvana and Leona should both definitely take flash. Leona more so but they both should.
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EPT
