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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On January 21 2014 04:29 Alaric wrote: Zed top, Kha'Zix jungle, Akali mid... what (plus Sona/Ashe bot for initiation).People are taking what they see in the LCS way too seriously. I've ran three assassins in yolo queue before, gets funny if you snowball. Never take a teamfight and pick off the yolo queue stragglers until they tilt hard enough to surrender. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 20 2014 17:26 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: Does Quinn really do that much damage though? I love that Vayne can just go HAM 24/7 in small skirmishes, I figured maybe Draven is similiar. Quinn is quite possibly the strongest duelist in the game. Her passive gives her some of the highest physical damage burst in the game and her abilities make her scale particularly well with duelist items. Specifically compare Lucians passive with Quinn's passive. Lucian gives you an extra auto attack at .5. This takes time and requires an ability to use. Quinn's passive gives you "base value + 50% bonus AD" every 3 seconds but TWICE if you proc it and then immediately e. For a total of 3 times in about 3.5 seconds. Since the base value of Quinn's passive exceeds 50% of the base attack damage that lucian has this total damage is clearly more than lucians passive will give you in a fight. How much more? Well at level 18 Lucian's passive does 50+ 50% bonus AD. At level 18 Quinn's passive does 215+50% bonus AD. Proccing it three times in 3 seconds for Quinn(possible) means that she will do 645+150% bonus AD. Lucian will do 150+150% bonus AD on the same combo. That is more nearly damage on Quinn's passive than if Lucian proc'd a triforce on each ability use and Quinn did not proc any sheen type proc. On top of this she gets free attack speed with her W and a lot of free attack speed in her R which makes her very efficient in following up that insane burst and maximizing her AD scaling. Now Lucian has about 1.0 AD more scaling in his full combo than Quinn and gets his abilities back a bit sooner and so will overtake Quinn in damage, but will have to have about 400 AD to do so... This isn't to say Quinn is better than Lucian, just to show how powerful Quinn is as a duelist and by extension in small skirmishes. This is also why she tends to be better top lane rather than bottom lane(and that ridiculous amount of base damage why she tends to be better as a bruiser imo). She will have more skirmishes, can use her ult as an escape as well, doesn't have to deal with her passive proccing on the "wrong" champion as much, and doesn't have to be constrained to a damage focused build. Edit: On top of all of that. Quinn has a base attack speed of .668 the highest of any ADC type. Vayne and Ashe are second at .658 and trist third at .656. Quinn doesn't have as much base AS scaling as Ashe/Trist (who have 4%) but still has a very respectable 3.1%. Which means that her attack speed at level 18 with no items is only 8% lower than Ashe/Trists and additionally with her free attack speed buffs effectively faster. Ashe with PD attacks only 10% faster than Quinn with no attack speed items and having proc'd her max rank W. So buy a Cleaver/Youmuu's/BT and LW and then defensive items and ruin folks. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 21 2014 04:10 Goumindong wrote: Kiting is easier with more AS because attack speed speeds up the attack animation as well as the attack delay and does so in the same proportion. This means that you have the choice to attack more and move the same distance and attack less and move more when you have more attack speed. If you have a large amount of hard AS scaling (like the combination of silver bolts and +AD from vaynes ultimate) you can definitely go heavy into attack speed and be effective. The downsides is that a Vayne with silver bolts maxed and an attack speed heavy build is very poor in DPS without her ult up. A BT first, Q max Vayne is strong regardless of whether or not her ult is up so long as your positioning is strong enough that you do not need the super kite which the increased attack speed (and slow/hp active) that BotRK brings. Too much AS on vayne actually is wasted. Her tumble is actually a drop on # attacks once you hit a certain AS threshold. PD + boots is more than enough AS. Botrk on top of that is a bit overkill | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
It's really interesting to see that dota2 didn't even make the list while counterstrike did, although I think CS's revenue has big part coming from the fact that you have to buy the game first. And my god, Korea and their spending power. | ||
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Celial
2602 Posts
On January 21 2014 04:41 Goumindong wrote: Quinn is quite possibly the strongest duelist in the game. Her passive gives her some of the highest physical damage burst in the game and her abilities make her scale particularly well with duelist items. Specifically compare Lucians passive with Quinn's passive. Lucian gives you an extra auto attack at .5. This takes time and requires an ability to use. Quinn's passive gives you "base value + 50% bonus AD" every 3 seconds but TWICE if you proc it and then immediately e. For a total of 3 times in about 3.5 seconds. Since the base value of Quinn's passive exceeds 50% of the base attack damage that lucian has this total damage is clearly more than lucians passive will give you in a fight. How much more? Well at level 18 Lucian's passive does 50+ 50% bonus AD. At level 18 Quinn's passive does 215+50% bonus AD. Proccing it three times in 3 seconds for Quinn(possible) means that she will do 645+150% bonus AD. Lucian will do 150+150% bonus AD on the same combo. That is more nearly damage on Quinn's passive than if Lucian proc'd a triforce on each ability use and Quinn did not proc any sheen type proc. On top of this she gets free attack speed with her W and a lot of free attack speed in her R which makes her very efficient in following up that insane burst and maximizing her AD scaling. Now Lucian has about 1.0 AD more scaling in his full combo than Quinn and gets his abilities back a bit sooner and so will overtake Quinn in damage, but will have to have about 400 AD to do so... This isn't to say Quinn is better than Lucian, just to show how powerful Quinn is as a duelist and by extension in small skirmishes. This is also why she tends to be better top lane rather than bottom lane(and that ridiculous amount of base damage why she tends to be better as a bruiser imo). She will have more skirmishes, can use her ult as an escape as well, doesn't have to deal with her passive proccing on the "wrong" champion as much, and doesn't have to be constrained to a damage focused build. How would one go about this fabled bruiser Quinn build? Q or E max first? BotRK and then what? ADC runes and masteries? | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 21 2014 04:46 wei2coolman wrote: Too much AS on vayne actually is wasted. Her tumble is actually a drop on # attacks once you hit a certain AS threshold. PD + boots is more than enough AS. Botrk on top of that is overkill. Sure, if you're using Q for damage instead of reposition. But if you're maxing W you're probably not using your tumble CD for damage. This is why Doublelifts BT/Q max dichotomy exists because the good positioning allows you to use Q for damage rather than just as a reposition/invisibility. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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xarchaosx
United States89 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
the problem is adcs are bad enough as it is you dont really want 2 of them on your team | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 21 2014 04:49 Celial wrote: How would one go about this fabled bruiser Quinn build? Q or E max first? BotRK and then what? ADC runes and masteries? You get free attack speed from your W. You have massive base damages and good scaling. Your primary path to damage is raw AD and Penetration. BotRK is OK because its got peel on it but its not damage efficient (too much attack speed you don't need). Your primary damage items are going to be some combination (2 or 3 of the following) Triforce, Black Cleaver, Last Whisper, Bloodthirster, Youmuu's Ghostblade. BT is the best lifesteal/sustain item. Its cheap, easy to build synergizes with all of your abilities. Cleaver and Youmuu's build out of Brutalizer, which is the best early game damage item. Triforce allows you to use your Q and W for extra sheen procs for even more damage*. Black Cleaver and Triforce have bonus health on them which is always nice. LW is the best synergy with base damage due to the power of penetration. *triforce + maximum passive proc over 6 seconds is 4 passive + 3 triforce proc's(by timing Q and W: at the very least you should get 2 by timing w). Which at level 18 is about 1500 damage + auto attack damage + 150% bonus AD. I would run standard lifesteal runes and start with a dorans blade. Which of the 2-3 bruiser damage items you should pick up I don't know. Try to play into someone like Nasus or Jax who you can bully/kite with your range, e disengage and slow, and Q blind. Build order (when to get your defensive items) I am not sure about. Intermixing them might not be a bad idea. Edit: But Quinn is a duelist and not an ADC. So you can't play her like a traditional top lane who is going to run into the team and mess the enemy up. You have to play like an assassin in team fights and generally be content with split pushing and dueling. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Cheap0
United States540 Posts
On January 21 2014 04:55 wei2coolman wrote: Quinn feels so overblown on this GD. She just blows for the most part. There's a reason we never see her played. I kind of think Quinn is a champion that's suited for a meta that likely will never exist. I dunno if that makes her "bad" or not. That said, I think she's a great solo-queue champion, but not really good for competitive play. She does dump on some of the popular top-laners right now though. | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
Oh you ESEX... [CLG vs. CRS] Brief Interview with IWillDominate After Curse’s loss in the hands of Counter Logic Gaming, ESEX was able to catch up with CRS IWillDominate to ask him if he thought the bans and picks could have been better. “We should have definitely banned the Hotshot NidaleeGG, it basically kicked my brotha in the ass.” | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 21 2014 05:00 sob3k wrote: We've been over this before though, quinn still loses duels to vayne hard. She loses to a lot of things. I don't get why people are so convinced she's a strong pick. It's all about that zionspartan yasuo top lane though. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I mean, that's completely unrealistic. Doesn't she just get destroyed by any assassin with cc (most notably LB) because their burst is more frontloaded than hers (especially AP carries), too? And man fuck Kha'Zix jungle, I went to ward my side bush expecting him to come soon, and I'm off by a few seconds, he was coming out of it right as I get in warding range, we're both level 3 and I end up with ~100 HP left after he flashes under tower (and I flash his E to survive). Good thing Akali is weak early and he came because I pushed her, 'cause I was dead otherwise. :< We won the game in the end, because our botlane was huge and I didn't die to Akali (my jungler came more than theirs but it didn't result in anything because Akali was too scared to come close to W range of Viktor), then we took some objectives and Zed failed to snowball against bruisers Nid despite winning the lane, so my late-ish Zhonya (last hitting so rusty T_T) wasn't needed earlier. Ashe and Sona still really annoying with the assassin comp the few times they got an initiation though. :< And I totally underestimated Soraka's impact with his ult and heals against the assassins (I mean, one, sure, 2, maybe, with the silence on Akali, but all 3... ). | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
Valor sharing cooldowns with Quinn is pretty annoying too, at least for the E. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 21 2014 05:10 Alaric wrote: What, three procs in three seconds? Sure, if you get somebody marked, stalk them until it's about to disappear, attack right before so it reappears and you trigger it, then E. That is now how her passive works. Quinn's passive CD starts from when it was procc'ed not when it starts. If Quinn is unable to attack the target while it is marked the cooldown is 10 seconds. If Quinn is able to attack the target while its marked the cooldown is 3 seconds. If Quinn uses E this negates the internal cooldown on the mark and places another mark on the target. So a target is marked, she attacks it. It proc's and will come back up in 3 seconds. She E's the target which immediately marks it. She attacks the target after her jump and this breaks the mark for the second time and starts the 3 second cooldown again. She will get another mark in 3 seconds, since the target she jumped on is likely low due to the double proc and is also a champion it will almost certainly happen on that champion since it prioritizes low health and champions So the combo is (target is marked)-> Auto attack(proc's mark) ->e(target is marked)->Auto attack(proc's mark)-> Continue to auto until target is too far away/reengages. ->If reengage, Q to blind when they're in range -> AA. At some point mark comes back up to be triggered again The only requirement is that the mark is on the champion she wants to initially attack (it lasts for 4.5 seconds) and she can get close enough to them in that time to proc it. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 21 2014 05:23 wei2coolman wrote: Man. I wish people didn't attack me for 9 seconds as I get 3 passive procs on them as quinn. Man i wish people knew how Quinn's abilities worked so that they would know how to maximize their passive damage. Or like, read the posts right above them so that it could be explained to them. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On January 21 2014 05:24 Goumindong wrote: Man i wish people knew how Quinn's abilities worked so that they would know how to maximize their passive damage. Or like, read the posts right above them so that it could be explained to them. Man, I wish people's opponents would just let quinn initiate a skirmish on them starting off with a passive (non-E) mark. That's the thing. If an opponent understands quinn, she never gets to pick the fights she wants because they just stay away while the mark is on them, and she doesn't get these super strong trades and does less damage than everyone else without her passive helping out. | ||
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