EPTI'm not sure how good the Tornado's to use, it's pretty slow and difficult to land.
[Patch 3.15] Yasuo General Discussion - Page 17
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
I'm not sure how good the Tornado's to use, it's pretty slow and difficult to land. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On December 14 2013 15:26 Shikyo wrote: 1.33s is the minimum cooldown his Q can have. So a tornado once every 4s, which basically means Q-AA-Q-AA-E+Q-R for guaranteed liftoff on the ult. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On December 14 2013 15:26 Shikyo wrote: 1.33s is the minimum cooldown his Q can have. I'm not sure how good the Tornado's to use, it's pretty slow and difficult to land. Can't be that hard to land in conjunction with his E... | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On December 14 2013 15:28 wei2coolman wrote: Can't be that hard to land in conjunction with his E... Yup, I don't consider that a tornado though. Was referring to casting it without the E | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
If top, I'd recommend a build path of: Sunfire/Randuins > Atmas > Shiv > SV or Banshees > Zephyr with Greaves. If jungle, I'd go Golem > Atmas > Sunfire/Randuins > SV or Banshees > Shiv with Greaves or Swiftness. If mid, go Hydra > Shiv > GA > IE > LW with Greaves. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On December 14 2013 15:30 Shikyo wrote: Yup, I don't consider that a tornado though. Was referring to casting it without the E Well the important part has to do with getting the knock up, whether or not it's a tornado doesn't really matter. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On December 14 2013 14:14 iCanada wrote: I dont think Yasuo is as OP as was expected. He has a lot of things, but his base stats are just awful. Every single one I have seen has just fed hard. I dunno, I dont think glass cannon style melee carries are a thing, and they just dont make sense as one. I dunno, I'd say Shyvana or Nasus much more "melee Carrie." Yasuo is more of a melee do nothing or get blown up. Pretty sure no one expected him to be OP. I personally just find his W too annoying. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On December 14 2013 15:41 Shikyo wrote: I guess almost full tank Yasuo could be worth messing around with, he has an AoE hard knockup and plenty of free damage like the insane armor penetration buff with his ultimate. Just stacking resistances and it could be fun... If you get shiv + ie (and 4.5% crit in runes) you have 100% crit. The shiv (crit, so basically 1.5k damage over their team each proc) + q crits combined with the ie give tons of damage in fights, so maybe shiv ie then 3 tanky items? (shiv ie banshees randuims sunfire or something) Haven't played around too much with it, but e max in lane feels really strong. You just use e to last hit, keeping it's stacks up, and whenever you get shield up you e onto them, (preferably with 1-2 q stacks already) and auto/q them til the shield is broken, then e away again. E hurts a lot if you're levelling it first, and keeping it at 4 stacks. Shiv gives lots of damage in lane, then either rushing ie (if you're safe to do so) or going for a defensive item first before finishing ie gives you a ton of damage midgame. Those 2 items basically let me oneshot squishies with 2-3 q's and autos, so just look for pickoffs, and as you get more defensive items you can start to play a more frontline role. The lack of lifesteal kind of hurts though, not sure how to deal with that. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
On December 14 2013 12:25 cLutZ wrote: Why? The active is basically wasted on him since you want as to lower Q cd, and you don't really need ms because of e(at least in bursts). The cdr is situational, because w and r really only benefit from it. Defend thyself 1) Notice the large +20 flat armor penetration. Then look at ultimate with 50% bonus armor penetration. Then realize with flat armpen runes+GB, you get 40 (or 39, same diff) flat armor pen, and the usual base armor of most champs hovers between 60 and 90, with the median being 78 at level 18, with 15 base+3 armor scaling. By the time you buy Youmuus (if you go for it first, ~level 7-9 I would think), you're doing true damage with your Q+R+AAs. Flat ArmPen scales with %ArmPen provided you don't go below the 0 armor threshold (and increases in effectiveness the closer you get to breaking 0 armor), which synergizes particularly well with his R. 2) The active is useful for engaging without minions nearby, and while his E does give him juke potential, an additional MS buff on top of it simply adds to it (both for engaging and disengaging). It also gives him the opportunity to AA weave with his Q much more readily than SS when the active is up. Consider why Ghostblade is such an exceptional item on Talon (beaten out by Tiamat/Hydra for first, due to lane/farm considerations on SR, but not so on other maps). Same considerations about armpen and playmaking potential applies to Yasuo, except he more readily benefits from the 15% crit over the 10% CDR. You won't be getting a second brutalizer into Cleaver on Yasuo though. :o 3) Full CDR leads to hilarious things like his Ultimate at level 16 only having an 18s downtime, which means 89% uptime on his R's armor pen (since, it should be noted, that the buff applies after he lands again whereas the cooldown ticks as soon as he sends them up in the air for the 1s knockup). 4) Compare it to Shiv, which is the main point of comparison. You lose the 100 magic damage passive every few seconds, 40% constant AS (which shifts over to a 6s active), 5% crit (or 10% effective on Yasuo), and 6% passive MS (in exchange for a 6s 20% MS buff). You pay 200 more gold for 30 Attack Damage (100% bonus ratio on his Q and 150% on his R), +20 Flat Pen (amplifies his Q+R+AA damage tremendously when used on a first-item timing), and 10% CDR (not the most effective on Yasuo because of his E interactions and Q limits, but effects his W and R CDs) on top of the Youmuu's active. I am happy to be proven wrong, however. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 14 2013 15:48 Sufficiency wrote: Pretty sure no one expected him to be OP. I personally just find his W too annoying. This, why do people think something needs to be OP to be broken or bad design. Rengar and Taric were bad design before they became popular again, and Aatrox is still broken even tough he isn't particularly strong or popular right now. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On December 14 2013 16:16 wei2coolman wrote: Worth running crit marks + quints perhaps? so you only need 1 real source of crit from shiv? Probably just finish the build with an Atma's or something IMO. Can definitely play him as a splitpush too, shiv + e lets him clear fast, and its going to be hard 1v1ing him. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On December 14 2013 16:28 cLutZ wrote: This, why do people think something needs to be OP to be broken or bad design. Rengar and Taric were bad design before they became popular again, and Aatrox is still broken even tough he isn't particularly strong or popular right now. I think Riot just has a problem where they outline paradigms, such as distinct strengths, less sustain, and so on. They go as far as to nerf existing champions to match their ideals, and then they release shit like jayce, Elise, zac, aatrox, rengar, etc that completely outclass the older champions even with their previous stats. See Elise. Nerfed like 6 patches in a row, still FP material in OGN. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 14 2013 15:48 Sufficiency wrote: Pretty sure no one expected him to be OP. I personally just find his W too annoying. lol iunno bout you but I remember reading a ton of posts here and on reddit about people crying OP when they saw his kit. "double crit chance from items?? omgop" "wind wall blocks all projectiles?? OPRIOTPLZ" "virtually no cd on E?? MORELLOSUX" | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On December 14 2013 16:42 ticklishmusic wrote: Probably just finish the build with an Atma's or something IMO. Can definitely play him as a splitpush too, shiv + e lets him clear fast, and its going to be hard 1v1ing him. He could be a split push champion, the biggest issue is getting him the items for it. I'd probably go with BotRK + Shiv on said split push option for Yasuo, but is he better than say, Trynd at said split push? Trynd's biggest issue is if you don't get the split push going he's basically worthless in a team fight. Yasuo has no ult like Trynd's but in theory his ult could be used in a team fight assuming your team builds with plan B of, "if split psuh fails, we teamfight and let Yasuo initiate when we knock someone up." Because for all the crap we give Yasuo, a 1500 range blink ult is pretty rediculous, and he has them hang in the air for a good second or so, so you could have a wombo combo sort of thing with Alister or Janna knockup into Yasuo ult to chunk down the front line, and afterwards Yasuo can E-Q onto the squishies in the back. And Ghostblade is an option for him, but I feel like you would only get it if you are up against a team with good disengage (Karma support, Sivir, Janna, etc.). | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On December 14 2013 16:24 Lord Tolkien wrote: 4) Compare it to Shiv, which is the main point of comparison. You lose the 100 magic damage passive every few seconds, 40% constant AS (which shifts over to a 6s active), 5% crit (or 10% effective on Yasuo), and 6% passive MS (in exchange for a 6s 20% MS buff). You pay 200 more gold for 30 Attack Damage (100% bonus ratio on his Q and 150% on his R), +20 Flat Pen (amplifies his Q+R+AA damage tremendously when used on a first-item timing), and 10% CDR (not the most effective on Yasuo because of his E interactions and Q limits, but effects his W and R CDs) on top of the Youmuu's active. I am happy to be proven wrong, however. Remember shiv cirits, so (unless you're building pure tank) once you have a few items it will be doing 200 damage every time. (250 if you get ie.) Thats a very non negligible amount of damage, especially in enclosed teamfights. If the enemy team is stacked (baron/chaotic fight) you're doing 800-1k magic damage over their team every few seconds. Sure you don't have mpen, but given you can be doing this at 2-3 items, they're unlikely to be stacking mr or anything at that point. It also adds a fair bit of damage to your burst for instagibbing squishies (at least 2 procs if you have it up while jumping on someone in jungle or something), and makes it so your lane opponent can't just buy sunfire/randuims and be safe from harass in lane. I just feel like with only shiv/ie you're doing enough damage to justify your existance even lategame, and you could go shiv ie and the rest tanky and still deal a ton of damage, whereas with youmuus you really need 1-2 more damage items (at least) to be able to put out sustained dps in fights once the enemy starts getting tanky. Also note shiv + greaves gives you the max cdr on your q by lvl 16 or something. On December 14 2013 16:24 Lord Tolkien wrote: 1) Notice the large +20 flat armor penetration. Then look at ultimate with 50% bonus armor penetration. Then realize with flat armpen runes+GB, you get 40 (or 39, same diff) flat armor pen, If you run flat armpen in runes I can't help but feel that your laning is going to suck. Without any damage/crit in runes you're going to be doing 50 damage autos/70 damage q's, and if he just starts cloth armour and buys a fast chain vest or something, you're going to have a hard time getting anything done in lane. Especially if you don't get a fast shiv, as almost your entire damage will be negated by his armour. Assuming you're going top, renekton/nasus/shyv/rengar/any top who can go sunfire will just go cloth-5 -> tabi -> sunfire and you're going to have to spend a ton on pots/sustain to just not get forced out of lane, as you'll never be able to trade evenly with them. If they force you off the wave you have no way of farming, and if you go in to trade, you'd be doing 30 damage an auto/50 damage a q, compared to the sustain/damage that most bruisers have top. Compare that to running damage runes (with maybe a bit of crit, i've been trying 4.5% so ie + shiv gives me 100%) and you can potentially go in with e whenever your passive is up, do a few q's/autos and e out again, hopefully winning the trade. Then shiv rush gives you a lot of crit, + a solid source of magic damage harass so they can't just go sunfire and laugh at you. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
Compare that with Youmuu's for the first item timing, and +30 AD and +20 flat pen is MUCH more attractive. Rough guestimate, but you'd break even with a non-crit shiv proc on a single target with 1 AA and 1 Q, you actually break even with 1 uncrit shiv proc with an ulti. And Youmuu's provides the same Q CDR in the active burst as Shiv. If you take the Shiv route, you honestly may as well go for hybid pen runes if you're relying it to be the brunt of your damage along with E. On December 14 2013 17:04 killerdog wrote: If you run flat armpen in runes I can't help but feel that your laning is going to suck. Without any damage/crit in runes you're going to be doing 50 damage autos/70 damage q's, and if he just starts cloth armour and buys a fast chain vest or something, you're going to have a hard time getting anything done in lane. Especially if you don't get a fast shiv, as almost your entire damage will be negated by his armour. Assuming you're going top, renekton/nasus/shyv/rengar/any top who can go sunfire will just go cloth-5 -> tabi -> sunfire and you're going to have to spend a ton on pots/sustain to just not get forced out of lane, as you'll never be able to trade evenly with them. If they force you off the wave you have no way of farming, and if you go in to trade, you'd be doing 30 damage an auto/50 damage a q, compared to the sustain/damage that most bruisers have top. Compare that to running damage runes (with maybe a bit of crit, i've been trying 4.5% so ie + shiv gives me 100%) and you can potentially go in with e whenever your passive is up, do a few q's/autos and e out again, hopefully winning the trade. Then shiv rush gives you a lot of crit, + a solid source of magic damage harass so they can't just go sunfire and laugh at you. Depends very much on the lane. I'd probably put him mid TBH over top given he'll get beaten by most top lane champions naturally. If they build sunfire, they're still going to laugh at you, honestly. The harass from Shiv is NOTHING when compared to top lane sustain. Also, Shiv weakly/moderately pushes top lane, which, unless you're going for splitpush mode (and Yasuo just doesn't strike me as a champ that can do it well, compare to Trynd which is the only top lane that picks up Shiv), is actually pretty bad since it denies lane control and leaves you susceptible to ganks (esp when you're up against bad matchups). Doesn't even near insta-clear waves like Hydra. :o Better off mid where there's less armor/health stacking, and where you can actually use your W to block damage. Also, ultimate cuts down on armor stack pretty heavily. 50% reduction on bonus armor, again. I'm not going to argue AD vs ArPen (look at first post :o ). It's been beaten to the death. I'll just say that S2 was the only season I used AD>ArPen runes out of the past 3.1ish. | ||
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