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On December 14 2013 17:15 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 17:04 killerdog wrote:
If you run flat armpen in runes I can't help but feel that your laning is going to suck. Without any damage/crit in runes you're going to be doing 50 damage autos/70 damage q's, and if he just starts cloth armour and buys a fast chain vest or something, you're going to have a hard time getting anything done in lane. Especially if you don't get a fast shiv, as almost your entire damage will be negated by his armour.
Assuming you're going top, renekton/nasus/shyv/rengar/any top who can go sunfire will just go cloth-5 -> tabi -> sunfire and you're going to have to spend a ton on pots/sustain to just not get forced out of lane, as you'll never be able to trade evenly with them. If they force you off the wave you have no way of farming, and if you go in to trade, you'd be doing 30 damage an auto/50 damage a q, compared to the sustain/damage that most bruisers have top.
Compare that to running damage runes (with maybe a bit of crit, i've been trying 4.5% so ie + shiv gives me 100%) and you can potentially go in with e whenever your passive is up, do a few q's/autos and e out again, hopefully winning the trade. Then shiv rush gives you a lot of crit, + a solid source of magic damage harass so they can't just go sunfire and laugh at you. Depends very much on the lane. I'd probably put him mid TBH over top given he'll get beaten by most top lane champions naturally. If they build sunfire, they're still going to laugh at you, honestly. The harass from Shiv is NOTHING when compared to top lane sustain. Also, ultimate cuts down on armor stack pretty heavily. 50% reduction on bonus armor, again. I'm not going to argue AD vs ArPen (look at first post :o ). It's been beaten to the death.
Oh, sorry, didn't mean to start that discussion, I was just surprised by the the way your runes/item path seem to focus on a power spike around the first big item/after lvl 6. In my (albeit limited) testing, I think that if you run a bit of crit and focus on owning lane, you have the potential to out trade your lane opponent by abusing your passive and e mobility, using e to only pick fights when your passive is up/if the enemy uses an important cooldown, and only going all in if you get a lucky crit or two, otherwise you can freely disengage with e again. Otherwise his lvl 1-5 feel really lacklustre against any champion with even a modicum of lane presence, and (although i might be wrong, i'll have to try it out) it feels like the youmuu's rush relies on getting it pretty quick, and abusing your 1 item power spike compared to other champions 1 item spikes to roam around and snowball.
What's the fall back if you fall too far behind in lane and can't abuse your youmuu's timing because everyone else is 1.5/2 items already, or are too tanky for you to blow up before help arrives? Where does your build go from there? (Or is youmuu's just so imba that you can sit on it for 5-10 minutes without needing any more damage at all.)
edit: I suppose you could just go avarice blade first, then depending on how the lane goes, (jungler ganks/who end up controlling the lane) go youmuu's if you're ahead, or shiv if you're behind/they're stacking armour. I just feel like shiv gives a stronger 2-3 item timing then youmuu's, both with going for a fast ie/more crit (if you don't need the tankiness/are snowballing) or getting some more tanky items.
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I think the OP template/blacklist probably needs to be updated. GP/10 items should be open for discussion now (and have been discussed) since they're completely new/different from when the original GP/10 discussions were around.
And on a similar note, AD v. Arpen should still be blacklisted, but if I'm correct pros have started to move a bit away from AD/Arpen runes anyways in favor of mixed runes with some attack speed and life steal (on quints). It also might be a valid discussion topic if/when Riot rolls out their runes rework.
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Yep. The biggest argument against full ArPen and full AD runes are that Lifesteal quints are just too gud right now for lane sustain. But just to note, the damage differential between AD vs ArPen, if we don't optimize mixed, isn't actually that big, and champions like Fiora (which Yasuo is somewhat archetypical towards) actually lose damage when they use AD over ArPen runes (and only break even level 1). Again, need to wait for rita to rebalance runes atm.
Only one point of note from your response post: what does Shiv rush offer over Youmuu's rush, exactly?
Also, you beat my many ninja edits to the second part. boooooo~
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On December 14 2013 17:36 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Yep. The biggest argument against full ArPen and full AD runes are that Lifesteal quints are just too gud right now for lane sustain.
Also, you beat my many ninja edits to the second part. boooooo~
Also I forgot my most compelling argument, e'ing every minion in a wave, then autoing once to watch them all explode in lightning is one of the most satisfying things I've experienced in league so far.
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On December 14 2013 17:36 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Yep. The biggest argument against full ArPen and full AD runes are that Lifesteal quints are just too gud right now for lane sustain.
Also, you beat my many ninja edits to the second part. boooooo~
Just going to note that lifesteal quints are supposed to be getting a nerf soon, whenever Riot decides to throw their seasonal rune balance pass onto the PBE.
Which I really wish they'd do, because it's pointless to me to update my guides heavily/put out my next one before they do. -.-
On December 14 2013 17:39 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 17:36 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Yep. The biggest argument against full ArPen and full AD runes are that Lifesteal quints are just too gud right now for lane sustain.
Also, you beat my many ninja edits to the second part. boooooo~ Also I forgot my most compelling argument, e'ing every minion in a wave, then autoing once to watch them all explode in lightning is one of the most satisfying things I've experienced in league so far.
Buy hydra, watch them all blow up anyway without gimmicks! Have a fallback strat in top lane when the enemy shows up with tabi/chainvest by turning the pickaxe/ls into LW instead of Tiamat!
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On December 14 2013 17:41 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 17:36 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Yep. The biggest argument against full ArPen and full AD runes are that Lifesteal quints are just too gud right now for lane sustain.
Also, you beat my many ninja edits to the second part. boooooo~ Just going to note that lifesteal quints are supposed to be getting a nerf soon, whenever Riot decides to throw their seasonal rune balance pass onto the PBE. Which I really wish they'd do, because it's pointless to me to update my guides heavily/put out my next one before they do. -.-
I want to know if they're buffing/not changing ArPen runes so I can continue cheesy ArPen stack builds. :<
A nerf to LS quints would be welcome since I've never actually used them lol. Kinda sad for my league, actually, but I pride myself on unconventional rune pages, like arguing full GP10 runes in S3 on Janna/Nami. Or using ArPen over AD on ADCs.
Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 17:39 killerdog wrote:On December 14 2013 17:36 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Yep. The biggest argument against full ArPen and full AD runes are that Lifesteal quints are just too gud right now for lane sustain.
Also, you beat my many ninja edits to the second part. boooooo~ Also I forgot my most compelling argument, e'ing every minion in a wave, then autoing once to watch them all explode in lightning is one of the most satisfying things I've experienced in league so far. Buy hydra, watch them all blow up anyway without gimmicks! Have a fallback strat in top lane when the enemy shows up with tabi/chainvest by turning the pickaxe/ls into LW instead of Tiamat!
1) need to actually calc it out, but LW is less effective since it's applied after the 50% ArPen to bonus Armor, and, damagewise, may not be comparatively as effective against Chain/Tabi in damage terms compared to Youmuu's or even a brut (after ulti). Before ulti, it's better in a laning situation.
2) Yasuo top is not a good idea, honestly. Fiora does it better (and Trynd/Riven even more).
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Didn't Riot say they were going to redo runes? What's the timeline for that look like?
Cuz I could use an extra, idunno, 200k ip.
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On December 14 2013 17:50 ticklishmusic wrote:
Didn't Riot say they were going to redo runes? What's the timeline for that look like?
Cuz I could use an extra, idunno, 200k ip.
They said it was coming S4.
aka, soon™. probably ETA Q1 2014.
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On December 14 2013 17:50 ticklishmusic wrote:
Didn't Riot say they were going to redo runes? What's the timeline for that look like?
Cuz I could use an extra, idunno, 200k ip.
They said they were looking at reworking runes and doing internal testing before putting them on PBE. Their plan is to put the rework out during preseason and try to have all rune changes completed well before season 4 (or 2014, whatever) starts. And the generic "start" of season 4 is supposed to be in late February or early March if memory serves.
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On December 14 2013 17:47 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I want to know if they're buffing/not changing ArPen runes so I can continue cheesy ArPen stack builds. :<
A nerf to LS quints would be welcome since I've never actually used them lol. Kinda sad for my league, actually, but I pride myself on unconventional rune pages, like arguing full GP10 runes in S3 on Janna/Nami. Or using ArPen over AD on ADCs.
1) need to actually calc it out, but LW is less effective since it's applied after the 50% ArPen to bonus Armor, and, damagewise, may not be comparatively as effective against Chain/Tabi in damage terms compared to Youmuu's or even a brut (after ulti). Before ulti, it's better in a laning situation.
2) Yasuo top is not a good idea, honestly. Fiora does it better (and Trynd/Riven even more).
ArPen runes will probably be left alone. LS quints were pointed out specifically because, like armor seals, they were hands down BIS(best in slot) in, what Riot considers, too many situations.
1&2) That doesn't stop people like Zed and Riven from buying LW and BC. If you're picking up Ghostblade, you most likely aren't picking up BC, so I don't think it's an issue. Now, if you intended to go LW and BC ontop of his ult(which is only applied to bonus armor), then yes, it probably would be too much.
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On December 14 2013 17:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 17:47 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I want to know if they're buffing/not changing ArPen runes so I can continue cheesy ArPen stack builds. :<
A nerf to LS quints would be welcome since I've never actually used them lol. Kinda sad for my league, actually, but I pride myself on unconventional rune pages, like arguing full GP10 runes in S3 on Janna/Nami. Or using ArPen over AD on ADCs.
1) need to actually calc it out, but LW is less effective since it's applied after the 50% ArPen to bonus Armor, and, damagewise, may not be comparatively as effective against Chain/Tabi in damage terms compared to Youmuu's or even a brut (after ulti). Before ulti, it's better in a laning situation.
2) Yasuo top is not a good idea, honestly. Fiora does it better (and Trynd/Riven even more). ArPen runes will probably be left alone. LS quints were pointed out specifically because, like armor seals, they were hands down BIS(best in slot) in, what Riot considers, too many situations. 1&2) That doesn't stop people like Zed and Riven from buying LW and BC. If you're picking up Ghostblade, you most likely aren't picking up BC, so I don't think it's an issue. Now, if you intended to go LW and BC ontop of his ult(which is only applied to bonus armor), then yes, it probably would be too much.
Does anyone know how his ult interacts with LW?
As in, does it apply his ult, then apply lw to the remaining armour, or does it combine lw and ult for the extra armour, then only lw for the remain armour, or what.
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On December 14 2013 18:05 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 17:59 Gahlo wrote:On December 14 2013 17:47 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I want to know if they're buffing/not changing ArPen runes so I can continue cheesy ArPen stack builds. :<
A nerf to LS quints would be welcome since I've never actually used them lol. Kinda sad for my league, actually, but I pride myself on unconventional rune pages, like arguing full GP10 runes in S3 on Janna/Nami. Or using ArPen over AD on ADCs.
1) need to actually calc it out, but LW is less effective since it's applied after the 50% ArPen to bonus Armor, and, damagewise, may not be comparatively as effective against Chain/Tabi in damage terms compared to Youmuu's or even a brut (after ulti). Before ulti, it's better in a laning situation.
2) Yasuo top is not a good idea, honestly. Fiora does it better (and Trynd/Riven even more). ArPen runes will probably be left alone. LS quints were pointed out specifically because, like armor seals, they were hands down BIS(best in slot) in, what Riot considers, too many situations. 1&2) That doesn't stop people like Zed and Riven from buying LW and BC. If you're picking up Ghostblade, you most likely aren't picking up BC, so I don't think it's an issue. Now, if you intended to go LW and BC ontop of his ult(which is only applied to bonus armor), then yes, it probably would be too much. Does anyone know how his ult interacts with LW? As in, does it apply his ult, then apply lw to the remaining armour, or does it combine lw and ult for the extra armour, then only lw for the remain armour, or what.
According to the wiki, it happens before LW.
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On December 14 2013 17:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 17:47 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I want to know if they're buffing/not changing ArPen runes so I can continue cheesy ArPen stack builds. :<
A nerf to LS quints would be welcome since I've never actually used them lol. Kinda sad for my league, actually, but I pride myself on unconventional rune pages, like arguing full GP10 runes in S3 on Janna/Nami. Or using ArPen over AD on ADCs.
1) need to actually calc it out, but LW is less effective since it's applied after the 50% ArPen to bonus Armor, and, damagewise, may not be comparatively as effective against Chain/Tabi in damage terms compared to Youmuu's or even a brut (after ulti). Before ulti, it's better in a laning situation.
2) Yasuo top is not a good idea, honestly. Fiora does it better (and Trynd/Riven even more). ArPen runes will probably be left alone. LS quints were pointed out specifically because, like armor seals, they were hands down BIS(best in slot) in, what Riot considers, too many situations. 1&2) That doesn't stop people like Zed and Riven from buying LW and BC. If you're picking up Ghostblade, you most likely aren't picking up BC, so I don't think it's an issue. Now, if you intended to go LW and BC ontop of his ult(which is only applied to bonus armor), then yes, it probably would be too much.
It doesn't, but his ulti is a larger chunk of effective penetration than Cleaver against armor stack (50% bonus vs 25% total, requiring 5 procs to stack). I need to look at the math for that later. But LW/GB is fine with him, just need to figure out if GB is better than LW for that first item slot (400ish gold cheaper for LW vs GB so earlier "spike") in armor stack cases, factoring in his ulti.
But again yes, it doesn't stop you from going LW/Ghostblade/BC, like Talon (well ok, BC sucks on Yasuo, never get it). :o
And confirming Gahlo, LW pen applied after ulti pen. It continues to amplify flat pen effectiveness, but LW's impact is thus less felt against armor stacking since you're only reducing an extra 17.5% of bonus armor of EHP instead of 35% (full 35% against base armor, however).
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wait wut they completely remove the hp and mana regen on all spirit items?
Also
Irelia
Bladesurge [ Q ] - Now also applies on-hit effects
I always thought it already did 
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On December 14 2013 18:28 AsnSensation wrote:wait wut they completely remove the hp and mana regen on all spirit items? Also Irelia Bladesurge [ Q ] - Now also applies on-hit effects I always thought it already did
In doing so, they give you % health/mana refunds to whacking jungle camps around.
I don't know what they're trying to get at with the Irelia thing, unless they're now allowing it to crit and being really bad at communicating it.
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Well I know bladesurge could proc lifesteal and triforce procs before. crit would pretty much be the only thing to add to it.
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On December 14 2013 18:28 AsnSensation wrote:wait wut they completely remove the hp and mana regen on all spirit items? Also Irelia Bladesurge [ Q ] - Now also applies on-hit effects I always thought it already did
This Reign of Gaming? Not on the Surrender@20 site.
I'm not entirely sure what this is suppose to entail. It already applied lifesteal/trinity proc, so...???
Also, DAT GUAN YU SKIN. tbh tho, I always though of Tryndamere as more of a Zhang Fei than a Guan Yu.
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Spirit items even better than Wriggles now, holy moley. Madreds def only going to be a Lee/Shy item exclusively now.
Still perplexed by the Irelia change. I mean, it applies Hiten and it's not like Critting with Bladesurge is ever going to be anything other than an amusing gimmick, if that is what they're going for.
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Yasuo is so cheesy. Crit runes and start Brawlers = ~40% crit chance at lvl 1, such a bully with Q. He seems a million times stronger as a bruiser than AD squishy, his passive shield is gigantic and he can trigger Sheen constantly.
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EPT
