EPT[Patch 3.15] Yasuo General Discussion - Page 168
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
On January 06 2014 22:36 kongoline wrote: so lane olaf is still a hard counter to nasus and shits on him ruthlessly, thank god otherwise i had really hard time stoping tp nasus from farming even with vlad I don't play Nasus and I am not sure how exactly he works, but I have this issue against him, my main top is Rengar and usually I shit on Nasus killing him on average 2-3 times during lane phase sometimes even more, however, when I have to move from top even for a while or the enemy jungle comes to help him, 5-10 minutes later he is back in the game and somehow I have the feeling that he is doing more for their team than I do, even though I somehow shut him down. Maybe its just me, but I have this feeling almost every game vs Nasus. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:20 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Mystic Shot can't even crit why would you build Infinity Edge over Thirster ever? Because Ez actually has decent auto attack speed when his passive reaches max. But usually you'll eventually get both in end game. | ||
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Celial
2602 Posts
Another round of questions though! Leona support, Dorans Shield start. How many points in defense? The full 21 or some 14, 15, 16 points and rest in utility? Also, armor red and yellows, flat mr blues - but flat HP quints or armor quints? What gives me a stronger level 2/3 all-in and a stronger laning? Do I follow up with the coin or do I forgo gold items and build sightstone into sunfire/pure tank? | ||
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Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
Skip sunfire, as you'll get it too late for it to have meaningful damage ? at least what Krepo did on stream the other day, went for randuins after mobos/sightstone. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On January 07 2014 00:10 Celial wrote: Doh, regarding the SotEL ticks - I shouldn't try to theorycraft at four in the morning. Interesting input on build orders/alternative paths, so thanks for that guys <3 Another round of questions though! Leona support, Dorans Shield start. How many points in defense? The full 21 or some 14, 15, 16 points and rest in utility? Also, armor red and yellows, flat mr blues - but flat HP quints or armor quints? What gives me a stronger level 2/3 all-in and a stronger laning? Do I follow up with the coin or do I forgo gold items and build sightstone into sunfire/pure tank? I run 0/21/9 because I really like the mastery that's right above the last one (the one that gives like 4 armor 2 mr per nearby champion), but I think maybe a 16/14 would work as well. I also run ad reds/quints on Leona. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
First of all a little thought experiment: Let's say you are in a combat situation involving 1-3 champions on each side and you could either choose to get a random champion from group A or group B and you magically would be trained in playing said champion. Which one would you choose? A) Caitlyn, Ezreal, Sivir, Vayne, Graves B) Fizz, Zed, Shyvana, Cassio, Renekton Yeah that's right you would choose B. But Imagine there's a 5on5 situation? Which team would you choose? The reason you still would choose B is simple: ADCarries are not actually "Carries" in the true sense of the word. There are some things they do exceptionally well: - safe laneing with a support in a 2on1/2on2 lane. - sieging and defending sieges. By sieging i mean actually hitting the turret. - dealing sustained damage from a distance in teamfights The words safe and distance are important here. Adc actually don't deal that much damage. We belive they deal that much because we let them have all the farm they want and because that is all they do. When you regularly visit the damage dealt to champions page, then the adc might be on top of that list but he is not by default. Fighters/Assassins/Mages are just as often. Sometimes a well played Support can be higher up than a badly played adc because all the Support was doing is harassing the enemy, getting into their faces while the adc was trying not to miss CS and running away from Assassins/Fighters. There is a whole misconception what carrying actually means. In Dota there are carry heroes who let you almost automatically carry your team to victory if you managed to get a certain amount of items. At this point in the game it is very easy for the carry player to outduel anyone on the map, he would actually love to be able to 1on1 each of every opponent. But the real meaning of the verb carrying comes from what you actually do in the game and not the champion/hero you play. A typical "Carry" in LoL is maybe able to outduel some of the opponents after he has a certain set of items, the support is a safe bet i guess. So what we actually have is a set of champions who's role is to deal damage and a set of champions who mainly provide utility and some who can also soak up damage and everything in between. The term "Carry" however should be reserved for those who actually do carry their team to victory and not to those who are safely farming botlane while the others are fighting for objectives because they "need farm" or die in 5 seconds by a Nasus in a teamfight because they "need protection". That sounds all very needy to me and not like someone who carries their team to victory. I suggest we just call them Marksmen or something! | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
Thank god there aren't enough on-meta tanks in the game... | ||
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
If you make dps calculations they'll always be on top. Then what? Well, they tend to get focused because of that, and they build glass-cannon to afford all that multiplicative scaling, which results in their contribution being low when the enemy team can explode them (since their burst damage is often low, and even for Graves or Jinx is lower than that of AP burst mages or assassins like Riven (who cheats because she's AoE)). Because they can't blow their load and gtfo like squishy mages or assassins, they're the easiest class to reduce the damage output of (either they run of they die, when they get focused by a whole team, bar peeling). Fighters can deal more damage overall by virtue of not being focused (or being able to live through it, 'sup Shyvana, Mundo, Renekton, Nasus, etc.), so even though their dps is lower they're more free to apply it, and they apply it longer, which makes up for it. Now, is the dps of AD marksmen higher enough to warrant devoting the necessary resources to peel for them compared to the more autonomous and either less farm dependant or better farming fighters/tanks, that's another point. They'll always have their place in a team unless stuff like Ziggs or hyper-dive comps get popular, though, because of the difficulty to siege without means to chip away at the towers' health. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll be the teamfights' stars they were in the past. But that's still holding a somewhat carry role, unless you define that term by "the dude who destroys the other dudes when a fight breaks out". | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On January 07 2014 01:55 Nos- wrote: I mean.. there is a reason we don't have 5 ads on one team. Picking 5 bruisers vs 5 ads is a pretty lopsided argument The argument is that mm are really just situationally strong champions but not more or less "carries" than any other champion type except a few. I mean if it where true then the double AD strategy would spike at lategame but it doesn't. It spikes during midgame when you can siege turrets very fast and snowball from there, if you don't manage to do so your teamcomp falls off. Having two instead of one strongly farmed "carries" in the the true sense of the word, would mean that you should have a stronger team overall, which is not true, hence the word carry is wrong/misleading. And I think noone can deny that they've seen just as much if not more other champion types carry games in pro play and in soloq alike. Is Flame/Faker/Alex Ich/Insec etc. any less of a carry than their marksmen coleagues? | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On January 07 2014 02:05 clickrush wrote: The argument is that mm are really just situationally strong champions but not more or less "carries" than any other champion type except a few. I mean if it where true then the double AD strategy would spike at lategame but it doesn't. It spikes during midgame when you can siege turrets very fast and snowball from there, if you don't manage to do so your teamcomp falls off. Having two instead of one strongly farmed "carries" in the the true sense of the word, would mean that you should have a stronger team overall, which is not true, hence the word carry is wrong/misleading. And I think noone can deny that they've seen just as much if not more other champion types carry games in pro play and in soloq alike. Is Flame/Faker/Alex Ich/Insec etc. any less of a carry than their marksmen coleagues? basically you just dont like the word even though every one knows what the word means and it's not what you're trying to make it seem like it means welcome to language bitch, where the meaning is made up and the etymology doesnt matter | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On January 07 2014 02:02 Alaric wrote: Actually AD carries do have the highest dps in the game, bar exceptions like Cassiopeia and Karthus, because IE is just that good. If you make dps calculations they'll always be on top. Then what? Well, they tend to get focused because of that, and they build glass-cannon to afford all that multiplicative scaling, which results in their contribution being low when the enemy team can explode them (since their burst damage is often low, and even for Graves or Jinx is lower than that of AP burst mages or assassins like Riven (who cheats because she's AoE)). Because they can't blow their load and gtfo like squishy mages or assassins, they're the easiest class to reduce the damage output of (either they run of they die, when they get focused by a whole team, bar peeling). Fighters can deal more damage overall by virtue of not being focused (or being able to live through it, 'sup Shyvana, Mundo, Renekton, Nasus, etc.), so even though their dps is lower they're more free to apply it, and they apply it longer, which makes up for it. Now, is the dps of AD marksmen higher enough to warrant devoting the necessary resources to peel for them compared to the more autonomous and either less farm dependant or better farming fighters/tanks, that's another point. They'll always have their place in a team unless stuff like Ziggs or hyper-dive comps get popular, though, because of the difficulty to siege without means to chip away at the towers' health. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll be the teamfights' stars they were in the past. But that's still holding a somewhat carry role, unless you define that term by "the dude who destroys the other dudes when a fight breaks out". That is exactly what a carry is supposed to do! Anything else is just flat out not carrying. Marskmen only hold a special position in a teamfight formation but that is all. The explanations you gave why marksmen only theoretically deal more damage than other roles are exactly what I was trying to say but in a more concrete way. I'am not saying at all, that ranged autoattackers aren't viable anymore or don't have a place. What I'am saying is that there the term carry is more often than not misused. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Mensol
14536 Posts
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