On December 11 2013 04:08 NotYango wrote: It's exponentially harder to find players that are popular, talented, and have a good competitive mindset than it is to find players who just have the latter two. The fact that there exist a handful of players who have all 3 qualities means absolutely nothing because there aren't enough such players to form a large enough number of viable competitive teams so long as sponsors care about popularity and stream views.
It's also just easier to find players that are popular and make money off of them streaming.
Not really though tbh. Look at bjergsen, his streams maybe got like 10k views before joining TSM. Now he regularly hits 30k np, was hitting 70k when he first joined. Did he all of a sudden become more entertaining? Nope. He joined TSM. Why can't this just be the case? Where TSM label is the part that makes him insanely popular, and then skill carrys over to the team?
Your best example of an unpopular player is a known EU LCS player with 10k stream viewers? That's not unpopular at all, lmao.
When's the last time that an NA pro team developed a player who hasn't been bouncing around the amateur scene for fucking forever. Never. No NA pro team would take that leap of faith that's necessary to develop fresh talent because that's not where the money is on NA. Whereas fresh-scouted talent appears all the time in Korea and China.
i believe they have a chronic misunderstanding of how to foster the talent. they could just step by step follow the blueprint made by the kespa teams but they dont want to.
How do they already have house and internet? Does CLG really pay for a house that can hold 12 people comfortably for a 5 man team?
bjerson made a comment on stream last night about the speed of their internet, it was more than capable of handling 10-20 gamers, assuming they didnt all stream at once and that they have a good quality setup. and say for example they rented a house for 3k a month and wanted to get a much larger house (and again, and/or go korean style living arrangements) and then got a bigger house that rented for 5k a month. thats only taking their overall expenditure from (for example) 10k to 12k.
if a team wont fork out a small percentage of their overall costs again, in the region of 10-30%, to invest in the scene, and in NA esports in general, then we get back to what i said ages ago. its just a lot of hot air from an owner who wants everyone else to spend money but not him.
On December 11 2013 05:27 Shikyo wrote: I don't get the challenger requirement by CLG.
Doesn't that just mean that the players will be concentrating on solo queue instead of actually important stuff like scrims and 5v5 ranked? It will also make the players just play to win(comfort champions etc) instead of playing to improve.
You make it sound like it's hard requirement for the current CLG lineup. Everyone on that team is top 250 material, ezpz. Aphro and DL just duo queue a couple games a week. Link already top 250 material ezpz. Dunno about Dexter, and Nien can just play ADC in solo queue.
On December 11 2013 05:33 NotYango wrote:
On December 11 2013 04:38 wei2coolman wrote:
On December 11 2013 04:08 NotYango wrote: It's exponentially harder to find players that are popular, talented, and have a good competitive mindset than it is to find players who just have the latter two. The fact that there exist a handful of players who have all 3 qualities means absolutely nothing because there aren't enough such players to form a large enough number of viable competitive teams so long as sponsors care about popularity and stream views.
It's also just easier to find players that are popular and make money off of them streaming.
Not really though tbh. Look at bjergsen, his streams maybe got like 10k views before joining TSM. Now he regularly hits 30k np, was hitting 70k when he first joined. Did he all of a sudden become more entertaining? Nope. He joined TSM. Why can't this just be the case? Where TSM label is the part that makes him insanely popular, and then skill carrys over to the team?
Your best example of an unpopular player is a known EU LCS player with 10k stream viewers? That's not unpopular at all, lmao.
When's the last time that an NA pro team developed a player who hasn't been bouncing around the amateur scene for fucking forever. Never. No NA pro team would take that leap of faith that's necessary to develop fresh talent. Whereas fresh-scouted talent appears all the time in Korea and China.
You make sound as if old dogs can't learn new tricks. the problem isn't that current players are bad, the problem is there isn't an environment for current players to thrive. I'd say a lot of current line up have a lot of *incoming CLG buzzword* "potential" to grow and become better. Also, Coast is a full team of nobodies that came out and rocked NA scene, sure they didn't get picked up by established team, but they came on the scene out of nowhere, and has stayed relevant to NA scene since they first appeared.
I don't think it's an issue of whether they're top 250 in skill.
It's more that can they maintain challenger with 10 hours a week vs someone spending 70?
Not hard, just reach certain ELO, and make sure before it decays, you play a game. They only need to win enough to keep up with any ELO inflation, which isn't hard if you're at their skill level.
On December 11 2013 04:08 NotYango wrote: It's exponentially harder to find players that are popular, talented, and have a good competitive mindset than it is to find players who just have the latter two. The fact that there exist a handful of players who have all 3 qualities means absolutely nothing because there aren't enough such players to form a large enough number of viable competitive teams so long as sponsors care about popularity and stream views.
It's also just easier to find players that are popular and make money off of them streaming.
Not really though tbh. Look at bjergsen, his streams maybe got like 10k views before joining TSM. Now he regularly hits 30k np, was hitting 70k when he first joined. Did he all of a sudden become more entertaining? Nope. He joined TSM. Why can't this just be the case? Where TSM label is the part that makes him insanely popular, and then skill carrys over to the team?
Your best example of an unpopular player is a known EU LCS player with 10k stream viewers? That's not unpopular at all, lmao.
When's the last time that an NA pro team developed a player who hasn't been bouncing around the amateur scene for fucking forever. Never. No NA pro team would take that leap of faith that's necessary to develop fresh talent because that's not where the money is on NA. Whereas fresh-scouted talent appears all the time in Korea and China.
i believe they have a chronic misunderstanding of how to foster the talent. they could just step by step follow the blueprint made by the kespa teams but they dont want to.
How do they already have house and internet? Does CLG really pay for a house that can hold 12 people comfortably for a 5 man team?
bjerson made a comment on stream last night about the speed of their internet, it was more than capable of handling 10-20 gamers, assuming they didnt all stream at once and that they have a good quality setup. and say for example they rented a house for 3k a month and wanted to get a much larger house (and again, and/or go korean style living arrangements) and then got a bigger house that rented for 5k a month. thats only taking their overall expenditure from (for example) 10k to 12k.
if a team wont fork out a small percentage of their overall costs again, in the region of 10-30%, to invest in the scene, and in NA esports in general, then we get back to what i said ages ago. its just a lot of hot air from an owner who wants everyone else to spend money but not him.
5 computers + 10 monitors ~ 9-10k usd 5 ikea desks ~ 1.5k~2k usd 5 twin size mattresses ~ 1k usd. food costs 200 per player per month, 1k usd. 5 chairs ~ 500usd costs adds up a fuck ton, real fast, especially if they're not increasing returns. problem with b teams is they don't really increase brand exposure, which is how NA teams make their money.
On December 11 2013 05:55 Nos- wrote: When sponsors/teams are willing to cut players due to poor performance without worrying about said player's popularity or "personality" is when we get a better NA scene. Korean sponsors have no problem cutting off the deadweight and replace them with amateurs. Even established giants like CJ replaced their roster with new players I've never heard of.
Look at NiP to see why teams are going to be too scared to do it, they tried to make the best team possible and all it got them was hate. Team bjergsen went from the beloved underdogs of EU LCS to the most hated team even though they were clearly trying to do what's best (Do people honestly think a team with neegodbro could contest for a top LCS spot)
On December 11 2013 05:55 Nos- wrote: When sponsors/teams are willing to cut players due to poor performance without worrying about said player's popularity or "personality" is when we get a better NA scene. Korean sponsors have no problem cutting off the deadweight and replace them with amateurs. Even established giants like CJ replaced their roster with new players I've never heard of.
Look at NiP to see why teams are going to be too scared to do it, they tried to make the best team possible and all it got them was hate. Team bjergsen went from the beloved underdogs of EU LCS to the most hated team even though they were clearly trying to do what's best (Do people honestly think a team with neegodbro could contest for a top LCS spot)
Feels like people hate them more because they gutted a good amateur team while posting shit results themselves. If they went on to do well I'm sure there would be less hate.
On December 11 2013 05:55 Nos- wrote: When sponsors/teams are willing to cut players due to poor performance without worrying about said player's popularity or "personality" is when we get a better NA scene. Korean sponsors have no problem cutting off the deadweight and replace them with amateurs. Even established giants like CJ replaced their roster with new players I've never heard of.
Look at NiP to see why teams are going to be too scared to do it, they tried to make the best team possible and all it got them was hate. Team bjergsen went from the beloved underdogs of EU LCS to the most hated team even though they were clearly trying to do what's best (Do people honestly think a team with neegodbro could contest for a top LCS spot)
Then this goes exactly back to what I said about the attitude problem being endemic to the entire scene, and not a problem that can be fixed just by changing high Elo solo queue.
On December 11 2013 05:55 Nos- wrote: When sponsors/teams are willing to cut players due to poor performance without worrying about said player's popularity or "personality" is when we get a better NA scene. Korean sponsors have no problem cutting off the deadweight and replace them with amateurs. Even established giants like CJ replaced their roster with new players I've never heard of.
Why are Cpt Jack and Lustboy still on CJ? huehuehuehue
On December 11 2013 05:55 Nos- wrote: When sponsors/teams are willing to cut players due to poor performance without worrying about said player's popularity or "personality" is when we get a better NA scene. Korean sponsors have no problem cutting off the deadweight and replace them with amateurs. Even established giants like CJ replaced their roster with new players I've never heard of.
Look at NiP to see why teams are going to be too scared to do it, they tried to make the best team possible and all it got them was hate. Team bjergsen went from the beloved underdogs of EU LCS to the most hated team even though they were clearly trying to do what's best (Do people honestly think a team with neegodbro could contest for a top LCS spot)
Feels like people hate them more because they gutted a good amateur team while posting shit results themselves. If they went on to do well I'm sure there would be less hate.
That was through no fault of their own, if extinct stayed they would have easily gone for the top but without him they had to take on mimer who could only play yorick/shen yet lost every lane and it went downhill from there. I'm not going to entirely just say "it's mimer's fault", malunoo had his own faults but it was obvious the impact of the loss of extinct was.
On December 11 2013 05:27 Shikyo wrote: I don't get the challenger requirement by CLG.
Doesn't that just mean that the players will be concentrating on solo queue instead of actually important stuff like scrims and 5v5 ranked? It will also make the players just play to win(comfort champions etc) instead of playing to improve.
You make it sound like it's hard requirement for the current CLG lineup. Everyone on that team is top 250 material, ezpz. Aphro and DL just duo queue a couple games a week. Link already top 250 material ezpz. Dunno about Dexter, and Nien can just play ADC in solo queue.
On December 11 2013 05:33 NotYango wrote:
On December 11 2013 04:38 wei2coolman wrote:
On December 11 2013 04:08 NotYango wrote: It's exponentially harder to find players that are popular, talented, and have a good competitive mindset than it is to find players who just have the latter two. The fact that there exist a handful of players who have all 3 qualities means absolutely nothing because there aren't enough such players to form a large enough number of viable competitive teams so long as sponsors care about popularity and stream views.
It's also just easier to find players that are popular and make money off of them streaming.
Not really though tbh. Look at bjergsen, his streams maybe got like 10k views before joining TSM. Now he regularly hits 30k np, was hitting 70k when he first joined. Did he all of a sudden become more entertaining? Nope. He joined TSM. Why can't this just be the case? Where TSM label is the part that makes him insanely popular, and then skill carrys over to the team?
Your best example of an unpopular player is a known EU LCS player with 10k stream viewers? That's not unpopular at all, lmao.
When's the last time that an NA pro team developed a player who hasn't been bouncing around the amateur scene for fucking forever. Never. No NA pro team would take that leap of faith that's necessary to develop fresh talent. Whereas fresh-scouted talent appears all the time in Korea and China.
You make sound as if old dogs can't learn new tricks. the problem isn't that current players are bad, the problem is there isn't an environment for current players to thrive. I'd say a lot of current line up have a lot of *incoming CLG buzzword* "potential" to grow and become better. Also, Coast is a full team of nobodies that came out and rocked NA scene, sure they didn't get picked up by established team, but they came on the scene out of nowhere, and has stayed relevant to NA scene since they first appeared.
I don't think it's an issue of whether they're top 250 in skill.
It's more that can they maintain challenger with 10 hours a week vs someone spending 70?
Not hard, just reach certain ELO, and make sure before it decays, you play a game. They only need to win enough to keep up with any ELO inflation, which isn't hard if you're at their skill level.
On December 11 2013 04:08 NotYango wrote: It's exponentially harder to find players that are popular, talented, and have a good competitive mindset than it is to find players who just have the latter two. The fact that there exist a handful of players who have all 3 qualities means absolutely nothing because there aren't enough such players to form a large enough number of viable competitive teams so long as sponsors care about popularity and stream views.
It's also just easier to find players that are popular and make money off of them streaming.
Not really though tbh. Look at bjergsen, his streams maybe got like 10k views before joining TSM. Now he regularly hits 30k np, was hitting 70k when he first joined. Did he all of a sudden become more entertaining? Nope. He joined TSM. Why can't this just be the case? Where TSM label is the part that makes him insanely popular, and then skill carrys over to the team?
Your best example of an unpopular player is a known EU LCS player with 10k stream viewers? That's not unpopular at all, lmao.
When's the last time that an NA pro team developed a player who hasn't been bouncing around the amateur scene for fucking forever. Never. No NA pro team would take that leap of faith that's necessary to develop fresh talent because that's not where the money is on NA. Whereas fresh-scouted talent appears all the time in Korea and China.
i believe they have a chronic misunderstanding of how to foster the talent. they could just step by step follow the blueprint made by the kespa teams but they dont want to.
How do they already have house and internet? Does CLG really pay for a house that can hold 12 people comfortably for a 5 man team?
bjerson made a comment on stream last night about the speed of their internet, it was more than capable of handling 10-20 gamers, assuming they didnt all stream at once and that they have a good quality setup. and say for example they rented a house for 3k a month and wanted to get a much larger house (and again, and/or go korean style living arrangements) and then got a bigger house that rented for 5k a month. thats only taking their overall expenditure from (for example) 10k to 12k.
if a team wont fork out a small percentage of their overall costs again, in the region of 10-30%, to invest in the scene, and in NA esports in general, then we get back to what i said ages ago. its just a lot of hot air from an owner who wants everyone else to spend money but not him.
5 computers + 10 monitors ~ 9-10k usd 5 ikea desks ~ 1.5k~2k usd 5 twin size mattresses ~ 1k usd. food costs 200 per player per month, 1k usd. 5 chairs ~ 500usd costs adds up a fuck ton, real fast, especially if they're not increasing returns. problem with b teams is they don't really increase brand exposure, which is how NA teams make their money.
Plus, where are they sleeping? Like, is Dlift really happy living with a roommate? Don't any of th CLG guys have girlfriends (guyfriends?), or at least some sort of intimate visitors? Plus, that many dudes in a house. Febreeze costs will run in the thousands.
On December 11 2013 04:50 turdburgler wrote: if hotshott wants to see more talent developed on NA why doesnt he (one of the few people with the funds and set up) do something about it? CLG pro-amm league, CLG B team, CLG vs the world of baddies.
hes sitting on his piles of cash crying.
Because that would be like flushing money down the toilet basically for an abstract gain that another team could just as easily reap the benefits of if the goals were ever achieved.
People on TL need more business classes. Well, not classes, because they are kinda worthless, more just business acumen.
it doesnt matter if it makes business sense or not. even supposing for a second it was a sure fire failure money-wise, that means hotshot is complaining that people arent dumping money in to a situation where he knows it will go to waste.
we can get in to sociological arguments all night long, but we cant change america. the only thing that ESPORTS can do to make NA less shit is to spend money on it, and so either you have to believe there are viable business opportunities, in which case hotshot himself is the prime candidate to do something about it, or you believe its a waste of businesses time, in which case you think hotshot is knowingly just making a whine about nothing in a sad attempt to stay relevant after retirement.
or i mean i guess you could just get sarcastic about your belief in knowing more about business than other randoms on the internet.
I mean, your plan didn't even make sense. He could actually do what you are talking about, in China and get takers. But in California everything is incredibly expensive. Maintaining a CLG B team would cost tens of thousands of dollars a month, easily.
Why do you have to pay the B team?
Because for them to be half decent they have to devote more than a S2 amount of work.
On December 11 2013 05:55 Nos- wrote: When sponsors/teams are willing to cut players due to poor performance without worrying about said player's popularity or "personality" is when we get a better NA scene. Korean sponsors have no problem cutting off the deadweight and replace them with amateurs. Even established giants like CJ replaced their roster with new players I've never heard of.
Look at NiP to see why teams are going to be too scared to do it, they tried to make the best team possible and all it got them was hate. Team bjergsen went from the beloved underdogs of EU LCS to the most hated team even though they were clearly trying to do what's best (Do people honestly think a team with neegodbro could contest for a top LCS spot)
Then this goes exactly back to what I said about the attitude problem being endemic to the entire scene, and not a problem that can be fixed just by changing high Elo solo queue.
If high elo soloq is more serious teams/sponsors might be more inclined to try out soloq stars. However that would still need them to be able to cut weak links in the first place.
On December 11 2013 05:55 Nos- wrote: When sponsors/teams are willing to cut players due to poor performance without worrying about said player's popularity or "personality" is when we get a better NA scene. Korean sponsors have no problem cutting off the deadweight and replace them with amateurs. Even established giants like CJ replaced their roster with new players I've never heard of.
Look at NiP to see why teams are going to be too scared to do it, they tried to make the best team possible and all it got them was hate. Team bjergsen went from the beloved underdogs of EU LCS to the most hated team even though they were clearly trying to do what's best (Do people honestly think a team with neegodbro could contest for a top LCS spot)
Then this goes exactly back to what I said about the attitude problem being endemic to the entire scene, and not a problem that can be fixed just by changing high Elo solo queue.
If high elo soloq is more serious teams/sponsors might be more inclined to try out soloq stars. However that would still need them to be able to cut weak links in the first place.
That's not necessarily true if sponsors are looking for brand extension and viewing popularity rather than competitive growth.
The short term and long term interests of NA eSports are not very well aligned and the long term goals require tons of money at risk of little to no short term returns.
Randomly tags a champion while he's running away from you, tags whoever you attack right after you've already attacked it so early game there's more than 1 second before you can trigger it and generally they run away, tags the minion you're currently last hitting so the animation doesn't complete before you kill the minion and it's on cd for 10 seconds...
Damn. I haven't had anything that clunky since alt+right-click/R pet control. (Granted, I'm bad to start, and I didn't pay attention so I had AP masteries, which fucked up my poor last hitting even more. But even harass and stuff is really awkward because of it unless you're fighting a melee champion. And even then it's hard to exploit harass/pot shots opportunities because they'll retreat when you go to attack them, Harrier is applied immediatly after, and they're mocking you while you can't trigger it.)
On December 11 2013 05:55 Nos- wrote: When sponsors/teams are willing to cut players due to poor performance without worrying about said player's popularity or "personality" is when we get a better NA scene. Korean sponsors have no problem cutting off the deadweight and replace them with amateurs. Even established giants like CJ replaced their roster with new players I've never heard of.
Why are Cpt Jack and Lustboy still on CJ? huehuehuehue
On December 11 2013 06:38 Alaric wrote: @_@ Holy fuck Quinn's passive is so bad.
Randomly tags a champion while he's running away from you, tags whoever you attack right after you've already attacked it so early game there's more than 1 second before you can trigger it and generally they run away, tags the minion you're currently last hitting so the animation doesn't complete before you kill the minion and it's on cd for 10 seconds...
Damn. I haven't had anything that clunky since alt+right-click/R pet control. (Granted, I'm bad to start, and I didn't pay attention so I had AP masteries, which fucked up my poor last hitting even more. But even harass and stuff is really awkward because of it unless you're fighting a melee champion. And even then it's hard to exploit harass/pot shots opportunities because they'll retreat when you go to attack them, Harrier is applied immediatly after, and they're mocking you while you can't trigger it.)
I don't think it's as bad as you claim. Maybe play a game with the correct masteries and see what goes down then.
On December 11 2013 06:38 Alaric wrote: @_@ Holy fuck Quinn's passive is so bad.
Randomly tags a champion while he's running away from you, tags whoever you attack right after you've already attacked it so early game there's more than 1 second before you can trigger it and generally they run away, tags the minion you're currently last hitting so the animation doesn't complete before you kill the minion and it's on cd for 10 seconds...
Damn. I haven't had anything that clunky since alt+right-click/R pet control. (Granted, I'm bad to start, and I didn't pay attention so I had AP masteries, which fucked up my poor last hitting even more. But even harass and stuff is really awkward because of it unless you're fighting a melee champion. And even then it's hard to exploit harass/pot shots opportunities because they'll retreat when you go to attack them, Harrier is applied immediatly after, and they're mocking you while you can't trigger it.)
I don't think it's as bad as you claim. Maybe play a game with the correct masteries and see what goes down then.
It's a clunky passive, if it was controllable Quinn would be so gud.
On December 11 2013 06:38 Alaric wrote: @_@ Holy fuck Quinn's passive is so bad.
Randomly tags a champion while he's running away from you, tags whoever you attack right after you've already attacked it so early game there's more than 1 second before you can trigger it and generally they run away, tags the minion you're currently last hitting so the animation doesn't complete before you kill the minion and it's on cd for 10 seconds...
Damn. I haven't had anything that clunky since alt+right-click/R pet control. (Granted, I'm bad to start, and I didn't pay attention so I had AP masteries, which fucked up my poor last hitting even more. But even harass and stuff is really awkward because of it unless you're fighting a melee champion. And even then it's hard to exploit harass/pot shots opportunities because they'll retreat when you go to attack them, Harrier is applied immediatly after, and they're mocking you while you can't trigger it.)
I don't think it's as bad as you claim. Maybe play a game with the correct masteries and see what goes down then.
It's a clunky passive, if it was controllable Quinn would be so gud.
I'm not saying it's not clunky, I just don't think it's "Holy fuck... so bad" worthy.
Edit: At least not from the evidence of one game with AP masteries.
EPT
