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United States47024 Posts
On November 06 2013 09:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
is it the worst mastery point? ofc not. is it remotely close to the best point? hell no, which is simply yet another case of ketara spouting nonsense and passing it off as gospel,. all the while doing some passive aggressive martyr card
Cheep this is the problem when you argue about things. You go to extremes because you get mad when people are wrong so you sound equally wrong when you say things like "the mastery itself is objectively shit".
It doesn't help your case to be hyperbolic. It helps your case to be right.
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On November 06 2013 09:21 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 09:20 Ketara wrote:
But as a general statement, anybody who think it's a trash-tier or noobtrap or whatever mastery is fairly wrong. And there are a lot of people who think that way, you see a lot of people who take things like Mental Force over it on APs, which is so bad I don't even.
stupid argument yet again because to reach 21 you need both mental force and havoc if you dont use the ad side, you're not choosing one over the other
No you don't.
http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#7bK7zq7pdd
Not that I'd use that page for much of anything, but just saying.
Anyway, I'm not gonna continue this. My point (that the new Spellweaving masteries are potentially pretty amazing) has been proved I think, and I have better things to do than to argue with Cheep.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On November 06 2013 09:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 09:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
is it the worst mastery point? ofc not. is it remotely close to the best point? hell no, which is simply yet another case of ketara spouting nonsense and passing it off as gospel,. all the while doing some passive aggressive martyr card Cheep this is the problem when you argue about things. You go to extremes because you get mad when people are wrong so you sound equally wrong when you say things like "the mastery itself is objectively shit". It doesn't help your case to be hyperbolic. It helps your case to be right.
you still have yet to prove anything about the mastery not being shit
all that we've established is that havoc is better than some tier 1 mastery points, which firmly places it in the lower tier in a ranking of "good masteries" however defined. how is that not shit?
simply put, the list of masteries that you'd rather take over havoc is a hell of a lot longer than the list of masteries you'd take havoc over
On November 06 2013 09:15 TheYango wrote:
Basically Ketara overreacted to a cool mastery that looks cool, and you jumped on him to argue about something that's pretty much impossible to actually argue about in a meaningful way.
i care nothing about what he thinks about cool new masteries he might be perfectly correct on those since i havent looked at them, and i havent said anything about the new masteries. i dont try to make claims about things i dont understand/play/have knowledge of, but he tried to make a blatantly incorrect point about a s3 mastery which is what i was pointing out
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On November 06 2013 09:24 Ketara wrote:
and I have better things to do than to argue with Cheep.
You are in luck then, cause you haven't been at all. Csheep and Yango are discussing something, you're like the annoying 6 years old trying to join in the adults conversation
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On November 06 2013 09:34 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 09:24 Ketara wrote:
and I have better things to do than to argue with Cheep. You are in luck then, cause you haven't been at all. Csheep and Yango are discussing something, you're like the annoying 6 years old trying to join in the adults conversation
to be fair, cheep originally responded to ketara. Yango was the one who interjected the argument.
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On November 06 2013 09:34 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 09:24 Ketara wrote:
and I have better things to do than to argue with Cheep. You are in luck then, cause you haven't been at all. Csheep and Yango are discussing something, you're like the annoying 6 years old trying to join in the adults conversation
Someone give this man a star and chinese translation icon
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Baa?21242 Posts
On November 06 2013 09:39 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 09:34 SagaZ wrote:On November 06 2013 09:24 Ketara wrote:
and I have better things to do than to argue with Cheep. You are in luck then, cause you haven't been at all. Csheep and Yango are discussing something, you're like the annoying 6 years old trying to join in the adults conversation to be fair, cheep originally responded to ketara. Yango was the one who interjected the argument.
false i responded to lam
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Yea but to be real though Ketara needs to tone down the arrogance if he wants to be taken seriously.
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On November 06 2013 09:34 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 09:24 Ketara wrote:
and I have better things to do than to argue with Cheep. You are in luck then, cause you haven't been at all. Csheep and Yango are discussing something, you're like the annoying 6 years old trying to join in the adults conversation
Ketara is backing up his opinions with solid math while pretty magnanimously ignoring the constant, totally unnecessary insults being tossed at him by Cheep and others. What the fuck kind of post is this anyway.
Easily the thing I dislike most about TL is how certain posters wind up branded as "safe targets" and whenever they post everyone is real quick to shittalk them without ever contributing anything themselves.
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On November 06 2013 09:40 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 09:39 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 06 2013 09:34 SagaZ wrote:On November 06 2013 09:24 Ketara wrote:
and I have better things to do than to argue with Cheep. You are in luck then, cause you haven't been at all. Csheep and Yango are discussing something, you're like the annoying 6 years old trying to join in the adults conversation to be fair, cheep originally responded to ketara. Yango was the one who interjected the argument. false i responded to lam
i was referring to when ketara said havoc was the best mastery in offense and you shot him down
or did lam say that first...
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In a typical game, and adc usually does 35k, 45k damage to champions, and 200k+ to everything. So 2% havoc as it's right now are around 700, 900 more damage, or 4k damage to everything.
700, 900 damage is not even a champion's life, so as we know, Havoc won't have game-changing effect that can score you one additional champion kill or something. But if you compared to damage a support deals in a game, 700, 900 damages usually equal 10%, 15% of what a supports can do.
But for example, Butcher which gives you 4 damage per hit on minions. If your cs in a game is 250 for example, and you kill the minion with 3 hit, that's gonna be 4x3x250 = 3000 damage. Then Havoc in the long run can clear creep very fast, especially with spells, not autoattacking.
It's just a number game. I think Havoc is strong, but personally I still get Butcher becuze the Koreans do it lol. Although I still get Havoc from time to time. Just keep in mind the benefit of Havoc, so that exhaust its use. If you get Havoc and content with sitting back autoattacking the creep, you're doing it wrong.
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On November 06 2013 09:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
Also mastery discussions are dumb.
I have no idea what's going on anymore.
I do some math myself and usually give up and go 21 in something and 9 in another because 21 points in anything is awesome but I usually want some of another tree too. Otherwise I go 30 in something. There's too many variables to analyze and that's what makes masteries fun.
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When I do masteries now I either use pre-set "good enough" pages or I just start clicking and feel sad when I have no more points to spend.
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On November 06 2013 09:49 canikizu wrote:
In a typical game, and adc usually does 35k, 45k damage to champions, and 200k+ to everything. So 2% havoc as it's right now are around 700, 900 more damage, or 4k damage to everything.
700, 900 damage is not even a champion's life, so as we know, Havoc won't have game-changing effect that can score you one additional champion kill or something. But if you compared to damage a support deals in a game, 700, 900 damages usually equal 10%, 15% of what a supports can do.
But for example, Butcher which gives you 4 damage per hit on minions. If your cs in a game is 250 for example, and you kill the minion with 3 hit, that's gonna be 4x3x250 = 3000 damage. Then Havoc in the long run can clear creep very fast, especially with spells, not autoattacking.
It's just a number game. I think Havoc is strong, but personally I still get Butcher becuze the Koreans do it lol. Although I still get Havoc from time to time. Just keep in mind the benefit of Havoc, so that exhaust its use. If you get Havoc and content with sitting back autoattacking the creep, you're doing it wrong.
Looking at total game damage is a totally weird way of looking at it. You don't just have champion meatsacks that stand still while you DPS through them, and 3% could easily get you an extra kill. Total damage to minions is basically meaningless, it's last hits that matter, which are only hard to secure early game: hence Butcher being taken.
Due to the tree structure Havoc is basically only competing with Sorcery, Fury and Summoner's Wrath for ADCs and has no real competition for APCs. Maybe it's not the #1 best mastery in terms of gold efficiency but it's good enough to be in the running, so Ketara's original point that a new mastery that is 2.5x stronger than Havoc could potentially be super strong is perfectly valid. As I said though, it all comes back to buff duration, which remains unknown. 10 second duration = OP OP, take it on everyone; 3 second duration = only worth it on a handful of champions.
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I'm just saying a 2% effective dps output isn't worth accusing people of being un-evolved homo erectus over.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 06 2013 09:24 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
So what practical implication is there to a game whether or not I'm putting points in Offense "for" a particular mastery (whatever that means)? There is none--the only thing that matters is your resultant mastery page having the highest possible effectiveness. yea i agree and you can certainly look at it that way but framed in that perspective its still asinine to proclaim havoc as the best mastery point in the offense tree by your logic, in order to have the best resultant tree, you can logically proclaim either the 21st point, the 9th point, or any of the first 4 points as the most important mastery points in the offense tree in no universe is havoc even close to being considered in contention for the best point in the offense tree
And I agree with that.
The problem is that you took Ketara being wrong as mandate to say something equally wrong.
There's a pretty reasonable argument for Havoc not being the best mastery in the tree. Namely 1) what the fuck does that even mean, and 2) given some definition for "what the best mastery in the tree" is, you can make an argument for some other mastery or masteries being better than Havoc.
Being hyperbolic and calling Ketara stupid don't advance an argument in any way. In fact they just result in Ketara arguing against your hyperbolic statement resulting in a circle of useless internet back-and-forth. Which, surprise, is what actually fucking happened.
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Jayce is more fun than I could have imagined. Should have been on this train long ago.
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On November 06 2013 10:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 09:24 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On November 06 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
So what practical implication is there to a game whether or not I'm putting points in Offense "for" a particular mastery (whatever that means)? There is none--the only thing that matters is your resultant mastery page having the highest possible effectiveness. yea i agree and you can certainly look at it that way but framed in that perspective its still asinine to proclaim havoc as the best mastery point in the offense tree by your logic, in order to have the best resultant tree, you can logically proclaim either the 21st point, the 9th point, or any of the first 4 points as the most important mastery points in the offense tree in no universe is havoc even close to being considered in contention for the best point in the offense tree And I agree with that. The problem is that you took Ketara being wrong as mandate to say something equally wrong. There's a pretty reasonable argument for Havoc not being the best mastery in the tree. Namely 1) what the fuck does that even mean, and 2) given some definition for "what the best mastery in the tree" is, you can make an argument for some other mastery or masteries being better than Havoc. Being hyperbolic and calling Ketara stupid don't advance an argument in any way. In fact they just result in Ketara arguing against your hyperbolic statement resulting in a circle of useless internet back-and-forth. Which, surprise, is what actually fucking happened.
I found the parallels to U.S. politics illustrative. Also, anyone who hasn't read the S3 recap Neo linked earlier totally should. And rewatch the Lovelin Volibear clip, it's still glorious.
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On November 06 2013 10:05 cLutZ wrote:
Jayce is more fun than I could have imagined. Should have been on this train long ago.
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EPT
