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On November 17 2013 22:10 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 21:10 Gahlo wrote:On November 17 2013 17:40 obesechicken13 wrote:Stonewall posted a video about jungle gold and levels assuming constant clearing in the S4 jungle. It seems like you're going to end up getting equivalent gold if you gank, less levels at all points in the game, and fewer combat stats in your items. A continuation of the trend from S2 to S3 I guess. http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1qs9aw/season_4_gold_comparison/My personal take is I'm kind of used to these changes. I guess junglers will have to continue trying to do their best to help their laners. Maybe now we'll have less gold than supports come mid game and be unable to duel them. Eh, there's a lot of issues I have with the video. He counts the initial jungle race with Yi, more of an AOE jungler due to alpha strike, yet insists on doing the wight camp after blue, which is an entirely single target camp. At the same time professing that it's a valid display because he kept things similar. How about making the route similar. The entire video is a rant about wriggles and he doesn't even talk about the other jungle items. That they took off the lifesteal, yet everybody who would build as an ad-based carry jungler would much rather have the vamp scepter rolled into another item. Finally, he complains about how behind you are from the new stat values/changes when the cost effectiveness is a net ~133 gain. Nor is he taking into account taxing lanes. His criticism that sometimes you get pulled away from the jungle in the early portion of the game is silly because it's usually for something like a tower(more gold) or dragon(your responsibility anyway as a jungler.) The new wraith camp is the closest and he says he did do a similar route, ignoring dad wraith but felt the same issue with lack of sustain. I'd assume if it were faster he'd have commented on it. Wriggles is not more stats or gold in combat stats. It gets progressively weaker each season. The lifesteal loss isn't that big of a deal when you get 10 health on hit. But now it's only 25% aspd and 20 armor. http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/oldmaneyebrows/26331-is-there-hope-for-wriggles-lantern-in-season-4The new Ancient Golem looks promising but I think it still has the same problem of shoehorning one item as a jungler's first item every game. I think that's Riot's vision but sometimes I wish Frozen Mallet or Sunfire cape were made of cheaper components and that machete's clear speed passive weren't so needed for sustaining in the jungle. In short I feel like S2 jungle was the best. I normally don't tax my lanes. It can cause my allies to rage. I might push a lane if someone is dead but even that can cause someone to spam back pings. He does comment on lane taxing. You didn't watch the whole video, or you weren't paying attention. He says that it's unreliable and it's something that laners have access to as well. I like the idea of more gold from nowhere though. 40% gold on wriggles and the conservation passive on golem seem to both work together but I'm not sure how they stack. It reminds me of midas from DotA. It's just hard to figure out what the breakeven is in an average game and whether it's ever worth getting. It feels like a gp10 item that a jungler can rush.
I watched the whole video, but you are kinda missing a major point, he choose Master Yi as his farm jungler. Never mind that Yi has decent ganks if his laner brings cc. YI has never been what most people consider the "farm" jungler. Elise clears faster than him, mundo clears faster, shiv clears a hell of a lot faster. Heck even Olaf might clear faster with his changes.
During his "farming" route entire camps were up for 10 - 15s at a time. Shiv can do the small camp route at respawn.
Also he itemized strangely, Yi would be a pretty strong case for the AD jungle item. Alpha strike would proc the passive on the entire camp. He didn't buy boots on his first back (even if they are definitely important for a powerfarm since you spend most time running between the camps).
The biggest jungle change wasn't any early game stuff, it was that the jungle now scales properly. It might mean that farming the jungle on a specific char is worthwhile even lategame, it might not, but that is not something testing on PBE will show us.
Simply put until quite a bit of testing and metachanging is done we won't be able to say what the changes actually bring, but that isn't a reason to make videos using a sub-optimal jungle route with a middish jungler to prove "something".
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I didn't watch the Stonewall video, but from the few I have seen he is usually wrong and very inaccurate about everything. Better to test out things yourself than believe anything he says tbh.
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On November 17 2013 23:14 Scip wrote:
I didn't watch the Stonewall video, but from the few I have seen he is usually wrong and very inaccurate about everything. Better to test out things yourself than believe anything he says tbh.
Well the one thing you can say he has empirically tested is that master Yi in the new jungle while building wriggles runs into sustain issues and has about the same amount of gold as he had in S3.
If that information is worth anything is another question entirely 
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yea...
-Stonewall has been a famous youtube streamer since Wrath(wow) dunno why he can't find some fanboi to leash for him, that alone basically invalidates the speed test. (unless theres something I don't know about s4 spawn times)
-As mentioned above he chooses Yi for the lategame potential ofc but he does not compare to true farming junglers as mentioned above.
-I tried to watch the video very closely he does not list his runes anywhere but as far as I can tell he's not running lifesteal quints (if they are still good after s4 changes I have no idea) and it also looks like he's not running aspd reds, Yi should be able to endlessly farm on claw alone with lifesteal quints, and will farm faster with aspd reds if mindless farming is your only goal.
-personally I say thank god, I mean they could get a little more money and that would be cool, but the equivalent of lane free farm in a pve environment is (in my opinion) not good for the game.
-The last thing thats fucking with people about this video is he's comparing how it's barely more gold than on live, the thing is, as I've mentioned before the jungle on live already provides far closer to lane farm than people think, the problem is if the other jungler is a ganking jungler you just straight up lose in solo q, and that is why it's not a viable option, it is not the amount of gold, because that is already more than decent if you tunnel for it. The only way this isn't true is if the vision changes in s4 make it safe to play this style, that alone is a bigger change than all the gold in the world they could add to the jungle.
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i think minions spawn 5 seconds faster or something like that so it's much harder to leash without missing 1-2 in the first wave
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On November 18 2013 00:40 Slusher wrote:
-The last thing thats fucking with people about this video is he's comparing how it's barely more gold than on live, the thing is, as I've mentioned before the jungle on live already provides far closer to lane farm than people think, the problem is if the other jungler is a ganking jungler you just straight up lose in solo q, and that is why it's not a viable option, it is not the amount of gold, because that is already more than decent if you tunnel for it.
Yeah you are in agreement with him there. That's one of the main thrusts in his video. I think you and Tula have pretty much killed everything else he's saying in it though.
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stonewall is wrong about everything
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When did TL start featuring XPeke and Cyanide streams?
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On November 18 2013 01:06 Requizen wrote:
When did TL start featuring XPeke and Cyanide streams?
It's amazing how many viewers they got comparing to the SC2 streamers.
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On November 17 2013 23:11 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 22:10 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 17 2013 21:10 Gahlo wrote:On November 17 2013 17:40 obesechicken13 wrote:Stonewall posted a video about jungle gold and levels assuming constant clearing in the S4 jungle. It seems like you're going to end up getting equivalent gold if you gank, less levels at all points in the game, and fewer combat stats in your items. A continuation of the trend from S2 to S3 I guess. http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1qs9aw/season_4_gold_comparison/My personal take is I'm kind of used to these changes. I guess junglers will have to continue trying to do their best to help their laners. Maybe now we'll have less gold than supports come mid game and be unable to duel them. Eh, there's a lot of issues I have with the video. He counts the initial jungle race with Yi, more of an AOE jungler due to alpha strike, yet insists on doing the wight camp after blue, which is an entirely single target camp. At the same time professing that it's a valid display because he kept things similar. How about making the route similar. The entire video is a rant about wriggles and he doesn't even talk about the other jungle items. That they took off the lifesteal, yet everybody who would build as an ad-based carry jungler would much rather have the vamp scepter rolled into another item. Finally, he complains about how behind you are from the new stat values/changes when the cost effectiveness is a net ~133 gain. Nor is he taking into account taxing lanes. His criticism that sometimes you get pulled away from the jungle in the early portion of the game is silly because it's usually for something like a tower(more gold) or dragon(your responsibility anyway as a jungler.) The new wraith camp is the closest and he says he did do a similar route, ignoring dad wraith but felt the same issue with lack of sustain. I'd assume if it were faster he'd have commented on it. Wriggles is not more stats or gold in combat stats. It gets progressively weaker each season. The lifesteal loss isn't that big of a deal when you get 10 health on hit. But now it's only 25% aspd and 20 armor. http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/oldmaneyebrows/26331-is-there-hope-for-wriggles-lantern-in-season-4The new Ancient Golem looks promising but I think it still has the same problem of shoehorning one item as a jungler's first item every game. I think that's Riot's vision but sometimes I wish Frozen Mallet or Sunfire cape were made of cheaper components and that machete's clear speed passive weren't so needed for sustaining in the jungle. In short I feel like S2 jungle was the best. I normally don't tax my lanes. It can cause my allies to rage. I might push a lane if someone is dead but even that can cause someone to spam back pings. He does comment on lane taxing. You didn't watch the whole video, or you weren't paying attention. He says that it's unreliable and it's something that laners have access to as well. I like the idea of more gold from nowhere though. 40% gold on wriggles and the conservation passive on golem seem to both work together but I'm not sure how they stack. It reminds me of midas from DotA. It's just hard to figure out what the breakeven is in an average game and whether it's ever worth getting. It feels like a gp10 item that a jungler can rush. I watched the whole video, but you are kinda missing a major point, he choose Master Yi as his farm jungler. Never mind that Yi has decent ganks if his laner brings cc. YI has never been what most people consider the "farm" jungler. Elise clears faster than him, mundo clears faster, shiv clears a hell of a lot faster. Heck even Olaf might clear faster with his changes. During his "farming" route entire camps were up for 10 - 15s at a time. Shiv can do the small camp route at respawn. Also he itemized strangely, Yi would be a pretty strong case for the AD jungle item. Alpha strike would proc the passive on the entire camp. He didn't buy boots on his first back (even if they are definitely important for a powerfarm since you spend most time running between the camps). The biggest jungle change wasn't any early game stuff, it was that the jungle now scales properly. It might mean that farming the jungle on a specific char is worthwhile even lategame, it might not, but that is not something testing on PBE will show us. Simply put until quite a bit of testing and metachanging is done we won't be able to say what the changes actually bring, but that isn't a reason to make videos using a sub-optimal jungle route with a middish jungler to prove "something".
Farming jungles are not always carry jungles. The jungle changes were meant to allow carry jungles to exist. So the choice of yi was appropriate. Pretty much shows stuff like jax and yi still not jungle material, cuz gold intake doesn't change.
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except his points are just wrong
-he keeps complaining about wriggles being nerfed, when for his set goal (farming as much as possible) it's a buff if he runs lifesteal quints
-he actually says in the video that going the wriggles rush route puts you behind until ~12 min, at which point you are only up 300g and it starts improving from there. that's pretty fucking early.
like 50% of his argument is based on Wriggles being a good item on live spoilers: it's not
not to mention with lvl of jungle creeps being based on avg level in the game isn't playing by yourself in a custom a nerf to XP (something else he complains about)
I don't know what to say really he comes across as complaining, if it's just a statement of fact (that afk farming will in most cases lose games) then sure he's right but if it's a complaint then he sounds like he wants to be able to have enough farm to fail ganks and still have the most income in the game which is ludicrous.
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Well jungler routinely keeps up with sololaner xp til around lvl 6. Sometimes with good jungle control can keep in closr xp range of solo laner around lvl 9. If anything, jangle camps xp gain would be lower in real game early on, than in solo custom game.
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EUW servers are down for me, anybody having the same problem?
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On November 18 2013 02:39 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:
EUW servers are down for me, anybody having the same problem?
It is a sunday evening.Isn't that pretty expected by now?
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Something about a live maintenance.
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Denmark2142 Posts
Looks like EUW servers just came up - I'm in queue atm.
Yea nvm - I got to 1 in queue and then it crashed.
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Servers will shutdown in 3 minutes actually.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
obviously TL, now being headquartered in EU, is going to buy the super team.
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On November 18 2013 03:35 JonGalt wrote:
obviously TL, now being headquartered in EU, is going to buy the super team.
TL Froggen?
EDIT:
watching TOO stream, starts dblade lee sin, doesn't grab lifesteal quints, doesn't gank at level 3, instead decides to full clear his jungle without a single gank try.
wut.
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EPT
