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On November 14 2013 16:58 JazzVortical wrote:
I personally don't know why Sej and naut don't get played more, they fit the bill. Is it their damage compared to the other guys?
Or the above
Sej and Naut have serious clear time problems, at least in comparison to popular junglers.
Also, pre-6 ganks aren't stronger (very important since lvl 3 gank on top or mid is the norm). Also they get bullied out, hard.
Especially in solo queue. Even with best non-smite leash, If you're blue side (Starting Red), enemy Lee Sin, already going to be at your blue buff, when you get there. So he bullies the shit out of your buff, and you're fuck. And vice versa for purple side.
That's not even the issue though. You do standard lvl 3 gank, you're going to show up later, and get dunked in lane.
Guess what happens after that? You suck balls in 1v1, so guess what happens at 7-8 min buff respawn timer? It's the enemy jungler again "one v one me fagget", and you either have teammates that help (lol, lets be honest here, it's solo queue), or you die, or you run away losing your buff. Then you hit level 6, and you're all like "yo, I'm all strong now, come at me bro", but guess what, other jungler has been level 6 for 5 minutes, and already ganked like 2 lanes with his ult. Then everyone hates you, and you lose dragon, and you lose games, and now you know why no one plays these champions.
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nautilus is gonna make a comeback in S4 as a support, won't matter as much how drastically they neutered his W damage from that position
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On November 14 2013 17:12 chalice wrote:
nautilus is gonna make a comeback in S4 as a support, won't matter as much how drastically they neutered his W damage from that position
Bold claims. Why do you think this?
cuz more gold?
I still think people are still going to favor supports that scale strongly early on, with sustain and/or poke damage.
Full engage supports require extremely strong defensive buffs, and early damage to justify. Leona and Annie being the only 2 I can think of that are "full engage" supports. Nautilus can engage pretty hard, and has decent defensive steroid, but I don't see him as a choice in comparison to Annie or Leona.
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On November 14 2013 16:58 JazzVortical wrote:
I personally don't know why Sej and naut don't get played more, they fit the bill. Is it their damage compared to the other guys?
Or the above
The -only- reason Sejuani isn't played is because she is bad at supporting a lane from a 1v2. All her abilities come at the cost of melee range, making her crap at waveclear.
If we're talking about soloq... it's because pros don't play her.
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I know Lee is the most popular jungler right now, but I still believe jarvan is the best overall. Guy never falls off, and I don't really see a weakpoint in his game. He has strong damage early, scary ganks, and a bunch of free stats that give offensive and defensive power.
I think the only thing he really has against him is that he isn't as strong early as some junglers. I feel that if a lee or Shyvana invaded him early, he couldn't beat them straight up.
Also, I don't get why Zac is almost non-existent now. Was the nerf to his passive that significant?
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On November 14 2013 17:19 Cloud9157 wrote:
I know Lee is the most popular jungler right now, but I still believe jarvan is the best overall. Guy never falls off, and I don't really see a weakpoint in his game. He has strong damage early, scary ganks, and a bunch of free stats that give offensive and defensive power.
I think the only thing he really has against him is that he isn't as strong early as some junglers. I feel that if a lee or Shyvana invaded him early, he couldn't beat them straight up.
Also, I don't get why Zac is almost non-existent now. Was the nerf to his passive that significant?
Zac shited to top lane because of how stupid he was with farm. Then nerfs came down due to his laning to make him need farm. From there the transition back to starving artist jungler status is a painful one.
There's a reason that Meteos is the last Jungle Zac I remember seeing.
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On November 14 2013 17:19 Cloud9157 wrote:
I know Lee is the most popular jungler right now, but I still believe jarvan is the best overall. Guy never falls off, and I don't really see a weakpoint in his game. He has strong damage early, scary ganks, and a bunch of free stats that give offensive and defensive power.
I think the only thing he really has against him is that he isn't as strong early as some junglers. I feel that if a lee or Shyvana invaded him early, he couldn't beat them straight up.
Also, I don't get why Zac is almost non-existent now. Was the nerf to his passive that significant?
J4 is crappy. His defensive steroid is actually super super shit, he's actually ridiculously squishy in comparison to a lot of his jungler counter part.
Zac nerf hurt him in lane pretty hard, which was what made him so good. If you're going to play him in jungle, could just play Aatrox instead.
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yeah you probably won't be seeing him in OGN, but getting gold for enough resists and hp that you don't get blown up anytime you try to engage should at least make him a decently strong solo queue support pick. plus if thresh and blitz are banned he's got the only hook left, that's gotta count for something.
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On November 14 2013 17:23 chalice wrote:
yeah you probably won't be seeing him in OGN, but getting gold for enough resists and hp that you don't get blown up anytime you try to engage should at least make him a decently strong solo queue support pick. plus if thresh and blitz are banned he's got the only hook left, that's gotta count for something.
Blitz hook pulls fully through, and he has follow up strong CC with it.
Thresh is stupid because even if he didn't have hook, he'd still be a solid support pick.
Still bugs me they haven't expanded LCS to more teams 
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On November 14 2013 17:23 chalice wrote:
yeah you probably won't be seeing him in OGN, but getting gold for enough resists and hp that you don't get blown up anytime you try to engage should at least make him a decently strong solo queue support pick. plus if thresh and blitz are banned he's got the only hook left, that's gotta count for something.
Well, if Riot gets the jungle right...
+ Show Spoiler +But I think we remember saying that before.
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On November 14 2013 17:12 chalice wrote:
nautilus is gonna make a comeback in S4 as a support, won't matter as much how drastically they neutered his W damage from that position
Why?
I feel like even with a gook hook he would lose a 2v2 vs. other melle supports. Also i dont find naut ganks that scary because dodging the anchor with minions is really easy.
Pig Lady could be coming back sometime if controlled teamfights come back into vogue, but that is true for a lot of champions in general.
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On November 14 2013 17:44 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 17:12 chalice wrote:
nautilus is gonna make a comeback in S4 as a support, won't matter as much how drastically they neutered his W damage from that position Why? I feel like even with a gook hook he would lose a 2v2 vs. other melle supports. Also i dont find naut ganks that scary because dodging the anchor with minions is really easy. Pig Lady could be coming back sometime if controlled teamfights come back into vogue, but that is true for a lot of champions in general.
Not sure if mistake or a racist joke about madlife
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On November 14 2013 17:44 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 17:12 chalice wrote:
nautilus is gonna make a comeback in S4 as a support, won't matter as much how drastically they neutered his W damage from that position Why? I feel like even with a gook hook he would lose a 2v2 vs. other melle supports. Also i dont find naut ganks that scary because dodging the anchor with minions is really easy. Pig Lady could be coming back sometime if controlled teamfights come back into vogue, but that is true for a lot of champions in general.
Blitz and thresh hooks still land. Why is naut hook different?
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On November 14 2013 18:03 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 17:44 cLutZ wrote:On November 14 2013 17:12 chalice wrote:
nautilus is gonna make a comeback in S4 as a support, won't matter as much how drastically they neutered his W damage from that position Why? I feel like even with a gook hook he would lose a 2v2 vs. other melle supports. Also i dont find naut ganks that scary because dodging the anchor with minions is really easy. Pig Lady could be coming back sometime if controlled teamfights come back into vogue, but that is true for a lot of champions in general. Blitz and thresh hooks still land. Why is naut hook different?
Naut hooks is commital. He forces himself in. Thresh has the option of walking away. Blitz hook just brings in minion. Naut hook a minion and you're soooooo fucked.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On November 14 2013 13:58 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 13:30 AsmodeusXI wrote:On November 14 2013 13:15 Kinie wrote:On November 14 2013 12:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:On November 14 2013 12:17 Mondeezy wrote:
Can someone let me know like the top 5 junglers atm? Took a little break and haven't really kept up with the patch notes. Hmmmm... Tough question. Here're my picks. Yeah... that's my best guess. Personally I think I'd remove j4 and put Shyvana there instead, due to her insanely fast clear times in early game and better scaling Def and MD in mid to late, especially when she ult's someone. But j4 would be 6th. I really can't imagine taking out J4 of the top jungler list ever. His damage and ganks are insane early, and he has tankiness AND CC all game that Shy (and most other junglers) can't match. Edit: As in, Shy may get tankier, but J4 gets comparably tanky AND has baller CC. I'm really curious why people are saying Shy. Afaik she hasn't been played competitively or at high-levels at all recently. But then I haven't watched NACL or anything else so. I have been seeing Shy a lot in streams, so maybe people are just experimenting with her.
She's considered a broken top by pros iirc.
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I've played against her a few times. She does well against melee assasins/bruisers, not so well against ranged/tanky.
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On November 14 2013 18:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 18:03 JazzVortical wrote:On November 14 2013 17:44 cLutZ wrote:On November 14 2013 17:12 chalice wrote:
nautilus is gonna make a comeback in S4 as a support, won't matter as much how drastically they neutered his W damage from that position Why? I feel like even with a gook hook he would lose a 2v2 vs. other melle supports. Also i dont find naut ganks that scary because dodging the anchor with minions is really easy. Pig Lady could be coming back sometime if controlled teamfights come back into vogue, but that is true for a lot of champions in general. Blitz and thresh hooks still land. Why is naut hook different? Naut hooks is commital. He forces himself in. Thresh has the option of walking away. Blitz hook just brings in minion. Naut hook a minion and you're soooooo fucked.
Yes but that's got nothing to do with landing them. Is naut hook harder to land than the others?
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Nautilus fights like shit until level 2 shield because level 1 breaks in 2 autos top nd then you're left with mediocre AD, one of the worst base and scaling AS in the game, tied for lowest MS. What are you gonna do?
At level 1 you're getting bullied, at level 2 your "all-in" is weaker than most other supports (Leona, Alistar, Thresh, Blitz, Annie, Taric, etc.), at level 3 you lack a slow or a shield that lasts more than one auto, and at level 4 you're dead or have been bullied out of lane already.
You commit if you wan to fight, and your clear is pretty meh.
Nautilus also needs CDR, some mana or mp5 if you plan to use E more than once, and resists to keep his shield (and thus dps) up. That's a lot of stats.
During teamfights Leona is superior to him offensively (unless you manage to hook a squishy into your team), especially if there's a wall involved, and there are stronger peelers aginst a single diver (Thresh and Janna still king and queen against multiples).
As for jungling, Nautilus used to tear through the s2 jungle, and even before the shield's durability buff he was pretty fast in s3 once he had level 2 W, the problem was getting there. Now it's easier, but losing up to 20% damage means a lot, less so against wraiths but still.
He gets destroyed at levels 1 and 2, and 3 if his W is still 1, only thing that'll let him live is trying to kite till his team collapse or using Q on a wall to escape.
Naut's strengths as a jungler are his passive (gives him cc that lets him keep Q for when they flash), his non-reliance on 6 to gank repeatedly, the hook mechanic when allowed to come from behind to cancel escapes and his long-range AoE point'n'click initation for bot lane ganks.
He loses every 2v2 ever, has a mediocre level 3 gank, has no damage if you nuke his shield, doesn't push nor poke well. He gets snowballed on really hard because of how squishy he is if he doesn't get items fast, and how dependant he is on not being squishy to do anything.
It's not that you can't play him, but even compared to J4 he deals little to no damage from midgame onward, so you need a line-up that'll provide damage for you and not to fall behind in the slightest or you won't be able to tank/peel for them, and the meta is pretty harsh with him in terms of presence requirement.
On that matter, what of Xin? Sure he was nerfed, but it was more in midgame and lategame utility than his early game dueling power and ganking, right? Plus his ult helps cut open a path for assassins. I guess J4's is still perceived as superior for this purpose.
Zac > Aatrox if you want a teamfight composition, sure Aatrox has Q, but Zac has E, and a 1550 range hard initiation. That'll always be relevant if you draft around diving or AoE comps.
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On November 14 2013 02:00 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:On November 14 2013 01:43 obesechicken13 wrote:
Playing one champ all the time is overrated. You improve by playing everything too. Try to win just by playing one champion in every role, perhaps duplicating your top, mid, and jungle (eg renekton top mid and jungle) and see how much your improve in rank. 1300 to top 50 EUW in about a year with udyr you mad? So you can't play anyone else at a near top 50 level? You'd be 1300 Shyvana?
Probably when I reached top 50 with udyr I started dicking around playing champs like shyv amumu skarner +random champs in other roles and i'd drop to about 2300~ish before stabilizing which is better than I ever would be if I dicked around from the start
On November 14 2013 03:26 obesechicken13 wrote:
Actually you guys are probably right. It is faster to gain rank if you only play one champion 1 role.
But I feel like this is like the dark side of the force. You improve more quickly over the short term to get a better rank, but it doesn't help you in the long term.
Phantomlord played only Draven. I don't think he'll ever be able to learn how to do anything but ADC. If he tries jungle he'll have to learn all the basics of jungling that most people learned at level 20.
no its the opposite, it helps you a lot in the long term, if you jungle the champ you know you get into the good habits that got you high in the first place and that holds somewhat what you switch champs but if you have been dicking around for 20 games you play noticeably worse because you start putting all your attention into how your champ clears and how it feels compared to other champs and never watch for all the opportunities.
Isn't phantomlord like a "top" palyer wtf? (I mean NA solo q, but I guess you guys have some respect for that) He'd be able to jungle pretty well at least at 2k+(EUW) level after laning so long he can recognize opportunites pretty well
On November 14 2013 04:27 zulu_nation8 wrote:
also while watching meteos vods I noticed he never turtles before bear to gank or turtle before phoenix to clear jungle even with blue, I was taught to do so by this EU TL guy who mains udyr who we all know, are NA udyrs ignorant or did the remake change something?
just because meteos is a good jungler doesn't mean he automatically knows every subtlety of every champ he plays. These are minor improvements which can lead to opportunities you wouldn't have had but if you're a good jungler you can carry games anyway.
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Xin prolly still pretty good but is awkward as he's pretty farm reliant to be good later on but farms relatively slowly and ganks really well so I guess he's "snowbally". You also need a teamcomp that benefits from his R knocking people apart but still wanting to engage. I guess the combination means people tend to just pick Vi who is similar but has more of a clear role since she can catch will with her R and has stronger ganks when R is up and farms faster without burning lots of mana.
J4 was always meh mid/late game from the jungle but had good enough cc+his flag aura that people got away with it but I wouldn't be surprised if he dipped in popularity just because Vi has similar strength ganks post 6.
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EPT
