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On November 08 2013 09:54 Scip wrote:
What? Renek reks Jax 1v1, unlike Jax he has innate sustain and ability to push lanes quickly, Jax needs to stack up his passive and later his ultimate to win a fight but with Renekton Stun+Q+double jump combo Jax can't get to the creepwave without taking a lot of damage at first. Renek is one of the few people that does well in lane against Jax.
Agreed. Commentators at worlds even know that Renekton counters Jax. Renekton is a manaless champion with high mobility and long cooldowns late game. His strength is the laning phase. Don't expect to beat him in lane. But consider that Jax's QWE are on 6,3,10 second cooldowns late game and Renekton's are 8,9,14
Early game Jax's cooldowns are 10,6,18. Renektons are 8, 13, 18. A much smaller difference. I assume it's also harder to juggle fury and sustain as Renekton late game.
Jax's ult does more damage the more attack speed he has. Renekton's ult has constant damage that won't scale.
Finally, the more life both champions have, the harder it is for Renekton to burst Jax down before Jax's attack speed passive is up and he starts doing more dps.
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On November 08 2013 09:31 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 07:39 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 06:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I also don't think renekton is a problem. He definitely has counters and bad matchups; the issue is that the current fotm top laners are all handily beaten by renekton. What are these counters? My experience is he is always annoying unless played by a baddie. His lategame is not horrifying compared to some of the other toplaners, but what games are decided lategame anyways? In my experience, Irelia does pretty well against Renekton if she can survive the first 3~4 levels w/out getting too far behind, which isn't too hard with a dshield start and early jungle pressure. I've also been able to regularly stomp Renektons in high plat with GP, although a good part of that could be because they don't know how to play against GP and GP can at least go even in almost every lane. Basically, if you can punish Renekton when he's trying to generate fury it's a favorable matchup. Renekton's damage output is pathetic w/out enraged abilities. Koreasilver mentioned Olaf and I remember he did pretty well against Renek. Thing about Renekton is that if he can't generate fury or if he has to waste Q cooldowns generating fury he's in a bad place. So champions that can abuse that like Olaf, Irelia, GP who can harass and outtrade him when he moves up to cs/generate fury tend to do well. In contrast, champs like Shen, Jax, Malphite, who either have weak early games or bad sustained harass get wrecked by Renekton. I dont know anything about GP matchups, but I love Irelia, and find that if the jungle pressure is equal it is much worse for Irelia, and in a 2v2 she is weaker, generally. She has a better lategame, but I don't thing her tenacity really outmatches his natural tankiness until she gets TF+1.5 tank items (like Randuins + Negatron or SV+Wardens). Olaf is much the same, his place in the game is dubious to me right now. I agree with the premise that Renekton can be dealt with, I just think he needs to be dealt with by a team, or just get terribly outplayed, so thats why I find him super annoying. That, plus, of course, manaless.
Yea in my experience Renekton bullies Irelia really hard early, but with a dshield start and some jungle babysitting, if Irelia gets to level 6+ without being too far behind in exp or items she starts to bully Renekton, because Renekton simply can't deal with the sustained true damage harass and his slice and dice isn't very helpful for disengaging since Irelia has bladesurge.
I'm also like 95% sure that the reason why Renekton surged in popularity, especially at Worlds and onwards, was because of Jax's surge in popularity and Renekton wrecks Jax. Jax's laning is pretty weak early on since his abilities hit like wet noodles until he gets items and levels. Jax can manfight virtually anyone in the game, but only after he gets significant farm and levels (by significant I mean Triforce, maybe Bork and at least level 6, probably more).
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I always thought he became really popular because he fit the health stacking meta, and had crazy built in damage.
Especially at the pro level where 1v2s actually happen. You don't get money in the first 10 minutes of laning if 1v2'd so you build a relatively cheap tank item. Renekton builds a sunfire cape that costs less than every offensive item in the game, and instantly becomes a tank that can dive and still do plenty of damage.
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On November 08 2013 07:18 Alaric wrote:Dang, dis Orianna laning nerf. Her HP pool is really small, so without the 10 bonus MR from level 1 shield she's really going to struggle against AP assassins. That's a 7% more damage taken assuming flat MR glyphs (42 base MR, 52 with current E and ball on her). Also Nautilus feels weaaaaaaaaaaaaak. Even though we snowballed pretty hard (had to start Q because invade, didn't even get an assist, so got 3 buffs but super late, made up for it by killing Xin for fb, he hit 2 first and still was losing to Vlad wtf), his kit is still has fun as ever but he... well, he's not that manavorous, he just has actual costs (and cd on W) contrary to most of the roster, and his damage is really crap now. Makes me sad.  Looks like you really need to get off several ganks early (eg. don't even try playing him versus Lee or Jarvan or Aatrox, I only picked him because they had Sej and Swain already) and have your laners snowball because you'll stop doing shit pretty fast.
Don't try and examine a champions lvl1 right now. Shit's gonna change a lot when S4 rolls around. As part of the rune restructuring they're acknowledging that the reason armor/MR runes are so prevalent is because champions are super flimsy at lvl1. Base Armor and MR on champions will be adjusted while those runes take a hit so they aren't defacto end all be all.
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On November 08 2013 08:27 Hyren wrote:^Renekton has kill potential on Shen up until Shen gets Sunfire. Shen with Sunfire can 1v1 Renekton in most cases from what I've played/seen, assuming he isn't 50 cs behind.
I'd list Vlad as a sort-of counter to Renekton. Even if Renekton can kill Vlad 2 or 3 times early, Vlad's natural level scaling will pull ahead by lvl 9. Kennen kinda dumpsters Renekton. Riven is pretty even.
The Shen matchup is pretty volatile in my experience. Whoever gets ahead tends to win, and if no one gets ahead neither can really kill the other. And it eventually just becomes who contributes to teamfights more.If it's not decided by Shen ults early, Croc tends to help his team win over time if it comes down to 5v5s.
As for the others: I don't feel like Vlad really counters Renekton- Vlad is way too weak early, and his scaling is not guaranteed by any means. Even if Renekton doesn't kill Vlad early, his sustain is better than most. Vlad may push down his tower, but he has to get extremely far ahead to really be a pain, and this just doesn't happen very frequently.
Kennen does not dumpster Renekton. A very poorly played Renekton, but even before Kennen's base damage was nerfed and the mark duration decrease, I was beating Kennen pretty routinely. After the Kennen nerfs, I can't recall a single instance of losing to him.
Renekton has always done fairly well against Riven. If you get a chain vest early enough, she can't really do anything at all to you. Riven can win, but it's largely predicated on her getting Hydra/Bloodthirster early enough that she can sustain through Renektons damage. And that doesn't happen very frequently (although she was a major pain when red pot starts were common).
Renekton is really a classic case of "everyone else got nerfed, and this guy was pretty good all along." The changes to the items at the start of the season helped him a bit too (especially the Randuin's/Black Cleaver ones).
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Greetings TL LoL, been readin for a couple years and never been caught up with the end of the thread AND had anything worth saying to post. Just wanted to say hello and that us Lurkers learn a lot and are entertained before I contribute finally.
Maybe a dozen pages ago a couple people were talking about Riven and her massive ad scaling, someone made a point that Tryndamere and Rengar's AP scaling had been much more degenerate, and I wanted to be the person who mentioned that if Riven's shield was a heal than she would be double the degeneracy of tryn or rengar. The argument that rengar and tryn's hotfixed heals somehow disproves Riven's power-creepinees made me sad
Keep up the good work guys, we're counting on you for our education!
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United States15536 Posts
On November 08 2013 10:35 UltimateFire wrote:Greetings TL LoL, been readin for a couple years and never been caught up with the end of the thread AND had anything worth saying to post. Just wanted to say hello and that us Lurkers learn a lot and are entertained before I contribute finally. Maybe a dozen pages ago a couple people were talking about Riven and her massive ad scaling, someone made a point that Tryndamere and Rengar's AP scaling had been much more degenerate, and I wanted to be the person who mentioned that if Riven's shield was a heal than she would be double the degeneracy of tryn or rengar. The argument that rengar and tryn's hotfixed heals somehow disproves Riven's power-creepinees made me sad Keep up the good work guys, we're counting on you for our education!
Wilkommen! <3
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isn't Elise best counter to Renek? Those q's hurt
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On November 08 2013 10:48 Chemiczny84 wrote:
isn't Elise best counter to Renek? Those q's hurt
Not especially. I mean back when she was completely and utterly broken yes, but now she's only kind of broken.
Also spectre's cowl helped him out a lot.
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On November 08 2013 10:08 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 09:31 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 07:39 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 06:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I also don't think renekton is a problem. He definitely has counters and bad matchups; the issue is that the current fotm top laners are all handily beaten by renekton. What are these counters? My experience is he is always annoying unless played by a baddie. His lategame is not horrifying compared to some of the other toplaners, but what games are decided lategame anyways? In my experience, Irelia does pretty well against Renekton if she can survive the first 3~4 levels w/out getting too far behind, which isn't too hard with a dshield start and early jungle pressure. I've also been able to regularly stomp Renektons in high plat with GP, although a good part of that could be because they don't know how to play against GP and GP can at least go even in almost every lane. Basically, if you can punish Renekton when he's trying to generate fury it's a favorable matchup. Renekton's damage output is pathetic w/out enraged abilities. Koreasilver mentioned Olaf and I remember he did pretty well against Renek. Thing about Renekton is that if he can't generate fury or if he has to waste Q cooldowns generating fury he's in a bad place. So champions that can abuse that like Olaf, Irelia, GP who can harass and outtrade him when he moves up to cs/generate fury tend to do well. In contrast, champs like Shen, Jax, Malphite, who either have weak early games or bad sustained harass get wrecked by Renekton. I dont know anything about GP matchups, but I love Irelia, and find that if the jungle pressure is equal it is much worse for Irelia, and in a 2v2 she is weaker, generally. She has a better lategame, but I don't thing her tenacity really outmatches his natural tankiness until she gets TF+1.5 tank items (like Randuins + Negatron or SV+Wardens). Olaf is much the same, his place in the game is dubious to me right now. I agree with the premise that Renekton can be dealt with, I just think he needs to be dealt with by a team, or just get terribly outplayed, so thats why I find him super annoying. That, plus, of course, manaless. Yea in my experience Renekton bullies Irelia really hard early, but with a dshield start and some jungle babysitting, if Irelia gets to level 6+ without being too far behind in exp or items she starts to bully Renekton, because Renekton simply can't deal with the sustained true damage harass and his slice and dice isn't very helpful for disengaging since Irelia has bladesurge. I'm also like 95% sure that the reason why Renekton surged in popularity, especially at Worlds and onwards, was because of Jax's surge in popularity and Renekton wrecks Jax. Jax's laning is pretty weak early on since his abilities hit like wet noodles until he gets items and levels. Jax can manfight virtually anyone in the game, but only after he gets significant farm and levels (by significant I mean Triforce, maybe Bork and at least level 6, probably more).
Renekton was a priority toplane pick way before worlds. He and Shen are probably #1/2 toplane picks/bans since Summer Splits started, and its not hard to see why. Jax's surge came as a result of the TF buffs, plus the fact they he was basically a lategame Shen counter, because he outsplitpushes and outduels the fat ninja. Plus, if you have Jax vs. Renekton they would always 2v1, because at lvl 6 the matchup is kinda even (with Jax being better off as it goes on), which is kinda like the Irelia situation you described.
On November 08 2013 10:27 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 08:27 Hyren wrote:^Renekton has kill potential on Shen up until Shen gets Sunfire. Shen with Sunfire can 1v1 Renekton in most cases from what I've played/seen, assuming he isn't 50 cs behind.
I'd list Vlad as a sort-of counter to Renekton. Even if Renekton can kill Vlad 2 or 3 times early, Vlad's natural level scaling will pull ahead by lvl 9. Kennen kinda dumpsters Renekton. Riven is pretty even. The Shen matchup is pretty volatile in my experience. Whoever gets ahead tends to win, and if no one gets ahead neither can really kill the other. And it eventually just becomes who contributes to teamfights more.If it's not decided by Shen ults early, Croc tends to help his team win over time if it comes down to 5v5s. As for the others: I don't feel like Vlad really counters Renekton- Vlad is way too weak early, and his scaling is not guaranteed by any means. Even if Renekton doesn't kill Vlad early, his sustain is better than most. Vlad may push down his tower, but he has to get extremely far ahead to really be a pain, and this just doesn't happen very frequently. Kennen does not dumpster Renekton. A very poorly played Renekton, but even before Kennen's base damage was nerfed and the mark duration decrease, I was beating Kennen pretty routinely. After the Kennen nerfs, I can't recall a single instance of losing to him. Renekton has always done fairly well against Riven. If you get a chain vest early enough, she can't really do anything at all to you. Riven can win, but it's largely predicated on her getting Hydra/Bloodthirster early enough that she can sustain through Renektons damage. And that doesn't happen very frequently (although she was a major pain when red pot starts were common). Renekton is really a classic case of "everyone else got nerfed, and this guy was pretty good all along." The changes to the items at the start of the season helped him a bit too (especially the Randuin's/Black Cleaver ones).
Just pointing out, all 4 of those suggestions are also...you guessed it...manaless.
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I've consistently done really well (i.e. bullied him out of lane hard) with AP Teemo against Renekton. Mana isn't an issue if you save blind for his W since you harass well with E.
I'm only in Gold, so maybe they were all playing it wrong, but with cloth/5 (or cloth/2+ward) into armguard Renek can't seem to hold his lane against Teemo without jungler intervention. You wear him out faster than he can sustain, just keep him at a distance (ideally he'll need to slice&dice to get to you, then you harass him hard while it's on CD).
Post-6 it only gets worse for him your shrooms make kiting easy.
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On November 08 2013 10:35 UltimateFire wrote:Greetings TL LoL, been readin for a couple years and never been caught up with the end of the thread AND had anything worth saying to post. Just wanted to say hello and that us Lurkers learn a lot and are entertained before I contribute finally. Maybe a dozen pages ago a couple people were talking about Riven and her massive ad scaling, someone made a point that Tryndamere and Rengar's AP scaling had been much more degenerate, and I wanted to be the person who mentioned that if Riven's shield was a heal than she would be double the degeneracy of tryn or rengar. The argument that rengar and tryn's hotfixed heals somehow disproves Riven's power-creepinees made me sad Keep up the good work guys, we're counting on you for our education!
Any damage done to the shield is an effective heal. If she doesn't take a hit but keeps fighting and lifesteals through the duration, it's an effective heal. If it healed and people don't continue chasing her and she gets away, it doesn't matter if it was a heal.
Does anybody have a tooltip for Rengar's W on release? iirc, the issue with it was the high % heal plus the massive AOE doubletap damage. I don't recall the heal scaling with AP. Given full rage, Tryn still heals for just as much. How often that happens I don't recall because I saw it in literally 0 games I played and tournaments never sat on Tryn long enough for me to gauge that.
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V1.0.0.147b:
Battle Roar
Ability power ratio reduced to 0.8 from 1.
V1.0.0.148:
Battle Roar
Damage reduced to 60/100/140/180/220 from 75/120/165/210/255.
Armor and magic resist bonus reduced to 15/22/29/36/43 from 20/30/40/50/60.
V1.0.0.153:
Battle Roar
Base damage reduced to 50/80/110/140/170 from 60/100/140/180/220.
Heal reduced to 10% from 15%.
V1.0.0.154:
Battle Roar
Empowered Battle Roar now heals for 60-400 (based on champion level) instead of 10% of Rengar’s health.
The problem with release Rengar W was 15% max hp heal.
Shen'ed
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Anyone taking part in my community montage? Should I make a thread?
edit: ya i didnt think so
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amused to see that the chinese translations of league champions are just as simple as other games as ever lmfao
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iG is using 2 players from YG, I wonder if it's just temporary or not
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On November 08 2013 11:22 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 10:35 UltimateFire wrote:Greetings TL LoL, been readin for a couple years and never been caught up with the end of the thread AND had anything worth saying to post. Just wanted to say hello and that us Lurkers learn a lot and are entertained before I contribute finally. Maybe a dozen pages ago a couple people were talking about Riven and her massive ad scaling, someone made a point that Tryndamere and Rengar's AP scaling had been much more degenerate, and I wanted to be the person who mentioned that if Riven's shield was a heal than she would be double the degeneracy of tryn or rengar. The argument that rengar and tryn's hotfixed heals somehow disproves Riven's power-creepinees made me sad Keep up the good work guys, we're counting on you for our education! Any damage done to the shield is an effective heal. If she doesn't take a hit but keeps fighting and lifesteals through the duration, it's an effective heal. If it healed and people don't continue chasing her and she gets away, it doesn't matter if it was a heal. Does anybody have a tooltip for Rengar's W on release? iirc, the issue with it was the high % heal plus the massive AOE doubletap damage. I don't recall the heal scaling with AP. Given full rage, Tryn still heals for just as much. How often that happens I don't recall because I saw it in literally 0 games I played and tournaments never sat on Tryn long enough for me to gauge that.
heals are permanent health gain that can be used outside of combat...
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On November 08 2013 10:53 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 10:08 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 09:31 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 07:39 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 06:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I also don't think renekton is a problem. He definitely has counters and bad matchups; the issue is that the current fotm top laners are all handily beaten by renekton. What are these counters? My experience is he is always annoying unless played by a baddie. His lategame is not horrifying compared to some of the other toplaners, but what games are decided lategame anyways? In my experience, Irelia does pretty well against Renekton if she can survive the first 3~4 levels w/out getting too far behind, which isn't too hard with a dshield start and early jungle pressure. I've also been able to regularly stomp Renektons in high plat with GP, although a good part of that could be because they don't know how to play against GP and GP can at least go even in almost every lane. Basically, if you can punish Renekton when he's trying to generate fury it's a favorable matchup. Renekton's damage output is pathetic w/out enraged abilities. Koreasilver mentioned Olaf and I remember he did pretty well against Renek. Thing about Renekton is that if he can't generate fury or if he has to waste Q cooldowns generating fury he's in a bad place. So champions that can abuse that like Olaf, Irelia, GP who can harass and outtrade him when he moves up to cs/generate fury tend to do well. In contrast, champs like Shen, Jax, Malphite, who either have weak early games or bad sustained harass get wrecked by Renekton. I dont know anything about GP matchups, but I love Irelia, and find that if the jungle pressure is equal it is much worse for Irelia, and in a 2v2 she is weaker, generally. She has a better lategame, but I don't thing her tenacity really outmatches his natural tankiness until she gets TF+1.5 tank items (like Randuins + Negatron or SV+Wardens). Olaf is much the same, his place in the game is dubious to me right now. I agree with the premise that Renekton can be dealt with, I just think he needs to be dealt with by a team, or just get terribly outplayed, so thats why I find him super annoying. That, plus, of course, manaless. Yea in my experience Renekton bullies Irelia really hard early, but with a dshield start and some jungle babysitting, if Irelia gets to level 6+ without being too far behind in exp or items she starts to bully Renekton, because Renekton simply can't deal with the sustained true damage harass and his slice and dice isn't very helpful for disengaging since Irelia has bladesurge. I'm also like 95% sure that the reason why Renekton surged in popularity, especially at Worlds and onwards, was because of Jax's surge in popularity and Renekton wrecks Jax. Jax's laning is pretty weak early on since his abilities hit like wet noodles until he gets items and levels. Jax can manfight virtually anyone in the game, but only after he gets significant farm and levels (by significant I mean Triforce, maybe Bork and at least level 6, probably more). Renekton was a priority toplane pick way before worlds. He and Shen are probably #1/2 toplane picks/bans since Summer Splits started, and its not hard to see why. Jax's surge came as a result of the TF buffs, plus the fact they he was basically a lategame Shen counter, because he outsplitpushes and outduels the fat ninja. Plus, if you have Jax vs. Renekton they would always 2v1, because at lvl 6 the matchup is kinda even (with Jax being better off as it goes on), which is kinda like the Irelia situation you described.
Not true. Renekton was picked a total of 15 games in NA LCS Summer split and only 9 times in EU LCS Summer split both out of over 110 games. In OGN Summer, he was picked in 8 games out of 80. Renekton picked up a decent amount of steam in the LPL. Regardless, Renekton definitely was not a priority pick prior to Worlds outside of China.
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EPT
