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On November 08 2013 12:41 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 10:53 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 10:08 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 09:31 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 07:39 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 06:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I also don't think renekton is a problem. He definitely has counters and bad matchups; the issue is that the current fotm top laners are all handily beaten by renekton. What are these counters? My experience is he is always annoying unless played by a baddie. His lategame is not horrifying compared to some of the other toplaners, but what games are decided lategame anyways? In my experience, Irelia does pretty well against Renekton if she can survive the first 3~4 levels w/out getting too far behind, which isn't too hard with a dshield start and early jungle pressure. I've also been able to regularly stomp Renektons in high plat with GP, although a good part of that could be because they don't know how to play against GP and GP can at least go even in almost every lane. Basically, if you can punish Renekton when he's trying to generate fury it's a favorable matchup. Renekton's damage output is pathetic w/out enraged abilities. Koreasilver mentioned Olaf and I remember he did pretty well against Renek. Thing about Renekton is that if he can't generate fury or if he has to waste Q cooldowns generating fury he's in a bad place. So champions that can abuse that like Olaf, Irelia, GP who can harass and outtrade him when he moves up to cs/generate fury tend to do well. In contrast, champs like Shen, Jax, Malphite, who either have weak early games or bad sustained harass get wrecked by Renekton. I dont know anything about GP matchups, but I love Irelia, and find that if the jungle pressure is equal it is much worse for Irelia, and in a 2v2 she is weaker, generally. She has a better lategame, but I don't thing her tenacity really outmatches his natural tankiness until she gets TF+1.5 tank items (like Randuins + Negatron or SV+Wardens). Olaf is much the same, his place in the game is dubious to me right now. I agree with the premise that Renekton can be dealt with, I just think he needs to be dealt with by a team, or just get terribly outplayed, so thats why I find him super annoying. That, plus, of course, manaless. Yea in my experience Renekton bullies Irelia really hard early, but with a dshield start and some jungle babysitting, if Irelia gets to level 6+ without being too far behind in exp or items she starts to bully Renekton, because Renekton simply can't deal with the sustained true damage harass and his slice and dice isn't very helpful for disengaging since Irelia has bladesurge. I'm also like 95% sure that the reason why Renekton surged in popularity, especially at Worlds and onwards, was because of Jax's surge in popularity and Renekton wrecks Jax. Jax's laning is pretty weak early on since his abilities hit like wet noodles until he gets items and levels. Jax can manfight virtually anyone in the game, but only after he gets significant farm and levels (by significant I mean Triforce, maybe Bork and at least level 6, probably more). Renekton was a priority toplane pick way before worlds. He and Shen are probably #1/2 toplane picks/bans since Summer Splits started, and its not hard to see why. Jax's surge came as a result of the TF buffs, plus the fact they he was basically a lategame Shen counter, because he outsplitpushes and outduels the fat ninja. Plus, if you have Jax vs. Renekton they would always 2v1, because at lvl 6 the matchup is kinda even (with Jax being better off as it goes on), which is kinda like the Irelia situation you described. Not true. Renekton was picked a total of 15 games in NA LCS Summer split and only 9 times in EU LCS Summer split both out of over 110 games. In OGN Summer, he was picked in 8 games out of 80. Renekton picked up a decent amount of steam in the LPL. Regardless, Renekton definitely was not a priority pick prior to Worlds outside of China.
Do you know how many times he was banned? 15 games picked isn't high, but maybe he was banned a lot.
edit: Looks like 32 games he was either picked or banned in worlds to me.
http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Group_Stage
http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Bracket_Stage
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On November 08 2013 12:49 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 12:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 10:53 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 10:08 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 09:31 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 07:39 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 06:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I also don't think renekton is a problem. He definitely has counters and bad matchups; the issue is that the current fotm top laners are all handily beaten by renekton. What are these counters? My experience is he is always annoying unless played by a baddie. His lategame is not horrifying compared to some of the other toplaners, but what games are decided lategame anyways? In my experience, Irelia does pretty well against Renekton if she can survive the first 3~4 levels w/out getting too far behind, which isn't too hard with a dshield start and early jungle pressure. I've also been able to regularly stomp Renektons in high plat with GP, although a good part of that could be because they don't know how to play against GP and GP can at least go even in almost every lane. Basically, if you can punish Renekton when he's trying to generate fury it's a favorable matchup. Renekton's damage output is pathetic w/out enraged abilities. Koreasilver mentioned Olaf and I remember he did pretty well against Renek. Thing about Renekton is that if he can't generate fury or if he has to waste Q cooldowns generating fury he's in a bad place. So champions that can abuse that like Olaf, Irelia, GP who can harass and outtrade him when he moves up to cs/generate fury tend to do well. In contrast, champs like Shen, Jax, Malphite, who either have weak early games or bad sustained harass get wrecked by Renekton. I dont know anything about GP matchups, but I love Irelia, and find that if the jungle pressure is equal it is much worse for Irelia, and in a 2v2 she is weaker, generally. She has a better lategame, but I don't thing her tenacity really outmatches his natural tankiness until she gets TF+1.5 tank items (like Randuins + Negatron or SV+Wardens). Olaf is much the same, his place in the game is dubious to me right now. I agree with the premise that Renekton can be dealt with, I just think he needs to be dealt with by a team, or just get terribly outplayed, so thats why I find him super annoying. That, plus, of course, manaless. Yea in my experience Renekton bullies Irelia really hard early, but with a dshield start and some jungle babysitting, if Irelia gets to level 6+ without being too far behind in exp or items she starts to bully Renekton, because Renekton simply can't deal with the sustained true damage harass and his slice and dice isn't very helpful for disengaging since Irelia has bladesurge. I'm also like 95% sure that the reason why Renekton surged in popularity, especially at Worlds and onwards, was because of Jax's surge in popularity and Renekton wrecks Jax. Jax's laning is pretty weak early on since his abilities hit like wet noodles until he gets items and levels. Jax can manfight virtually anyone in the game, but only after he gets significant farm and levels (by significant I mean Triforce, maybe Bork and at least level 6, probably more). Renekton was a priority toplane pick way before worlds. He and Shen are probably #1/2 toplane picks/bans since Summer Splits started, and its not hard to see why. Jax's surge came as a result of the TF buffs, plus the fact they he was basically a lategame Shen counter, because he outsplitpushes and outduels the fat ninja. Plus, if you have Jax vs. Renekton they would always 2v1, because at lvl 6 the matchup is kinda even (with Jax being better off as it goes on), which is kinda like the Irelia situation you described. Not true. Renekton was picked a total of 15 games in NA LCS Summer split and only 9 times in EU LCS Summer split both out of over 110 games. In OGN Summer, he was picked in 8 games out of 80. Renekton picked up a decent amount of steam in the LPL. Regardless, Renekton definitely was not a priority pick prior to Worlds outside of China. Do you know how many times he was banned? 15 games picked isn't high, but maybe he was banned a lot. edit: Looks like 32 games he was either picked or banned in worlds to me. http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Group_Stagehttp://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Bracket_Stage
I can't remember the last LCS Renekton ban. Long story short, he was not a priority pick/ban prior to Worlds and Jax resurgence. In NA LCS, 1 Renekton Ban and 15 Renekton Picks in the Summer Split (with a 2-13 record, oucccch). 9 picks no bans in EU during Summer (5-4 record). Keep in mind we're talking 114 games played, so we have barely 15% and 8-9% pick/ban rates for Renekton. That's...pretty bad.
EDIT: To be fair, Spring Split for both EU and NA saw 50%+ pick/ban rates for Renekton, but definitely not Summer.
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On November 08 2013 12:12 Clinic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 11:22 Gahlo wrote:On November 08 2013 10:35 UltimateFire wrote:Greetings TL LoL, been readin for a couple years and never been caught up with the end of the thread AND had anything worth saying to post. Just wanted to say hello and that us Lurkers learn a lot and are entertained before I contribute finally. Maybe a dozen pages ago a couple people were talking about Riven and her massive ad scaling, someone made a point that Tryndamere and Rengar's AP scaling had been much more degenerate, and I wanted to be the person who mentioned that if Riven's shield was a heal than she would be double the degeneracy of tryn or rengar. The argument that rengar and tryn's hotfixed heals somehow disproves Riven's power-creepinees made me sad  Keep up the good work guys, we're counting on you for our education! Any damage done to the shield is an effective heal. If she doesn't take a hit but keeps fighting and lifesteals through the duration, it's an effective heal. If it healed and people don't continue chasing her and she gets away, it doesn't matter if it was a heal. Does anybody have a tooltip for Rengar's W on release? iirc, the issue with it was the high % heal plus the massive AOE doubletap damage. I don't recall the heal scaling with AP. Given full rage, Tryn still heals for just as much. How often that happens I don't recall because I saw it in literally 0 games I played and tournaments never sat on Tryn long enough for me to gauge that. heals are permanent health gain that can be used outside of combat...
So is lifesteal, pretty much, which she builds regardless.
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On November 08 2013 12:49 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 12:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 10:53 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 10:08 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 09:31 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 07:39 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 06:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I also don't think renekton is a problem. He definitely has counters and bad matchups; the issue is that the current fotm top laners are all handily beaten by renekton. What are these counters? My experience is he is always annoying unless played by a baddie. His lategame is not horrifying compared to some of the other toplaners, but what games are decided lategame anyways? In my experience, Irelia does pretty well against Renekton if she can survive the first 3~4 levels w/out getting too far behind, which isn't too hard with a dshield start and early jungle pressure. I've also been able to regularly stomp Renektons in high plat with GP, although a good part of that could be because they don't know how to play against GP and GP can at least go even in almost every lane. Basically, if you can punish Renekton when he's trying to generate fury it's a favorable matchup. Renekton's damage output is pathetic w/out enraged abilities. Koreasilver mentioned Olaf and I remember he did pretty well against Renek. Thing about Renekton is that if he can't generate fury or if he has to waste Q cooldowns generating fury he's in a bad place. So champions that can abuse that like Olaf, Irelia, GP who can harass and outtrade him when he moves up to cs/generate fury tend to do well. In contrast, champs like Shen, Jax, Malphite, who either have weak early games or bad sustained harass get wrecked by Renekton. I dont know anything about GP matchups, but I love Irelia, and find that if the jungle pressure is equal it is much worse for Irelia, and in a 2v2 she is weaker, generally. She has a better lategame, but I don't thing her tenacity really outmatches his natural tankiness until she gets TF+1.5 tank items (like Randuins + Negatron or SV+Wardens). Olaf is much the same, his place in the game is dubious to me right now. I agree with the premise that Renekton can be dealt with, I just think he needs to be dealt with by a team, or just get terribly outplayed, so thats why I find him super annoying. That, plus, of course, manaless. Yea in my experience Renekton bullies Irelia really hard early, but with a dshield start and some jungle babysitting, if Irelia gets to level 6+ without being too far behind in exp or items she starts to bully Renekton, because Renekton simply can't deal with the sustained true damage harass and his slice and dice isn't very helpful for disengaging since Irelia has bladesurge. I'm also like 95% sure that the reason why Renekton surged in popularity, especially at Worlds and onwards, was because of Jax's surge in popularity and Renekton wrecks Jax. Jax's laning is pretty weak early on since his abilities hit like wet noodles until he gets items and levels. Jax can manfight virtually anyone in the game, but only after he gets significant farm and levels (by significant I mean Triforce, maybe Bork and at least level 6, probably more). Renekton was a priority toplane pick way before worlds. He and Shen are probably #1/2 toplane picks/bans since Summer Splits started, and its not hard to see why. Jax's surge came as a result of the TF buffs, plus the fact they he was basically a lategame Shen counter, because he outsplitpushes and outduels the fat ninja. Plus, if you have Jax vs. Renekton they would always 2v1, because at lvl 6 the matchup is kinda even (with Jax being better off as it goes on), which is kinda like the Irelia situation you described. Not true. Renekton was picked a total of 15 games in NA LCS Summer split and only 9 times in EU LCS Summer split both out of over 110 games. In OGN Summer, he was picked in 8 games out of 80. Renekton picked up a decent amount of steam in the LPL. Regardless, Renekton definitely was not a priority pick prior to Worlds outside of China. Do you know how many times he was banned? 15 games picked isn't high, but maybe he was banned a lot. edit: Looks like 32 games he was either picked or banned in worlds to me. http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Group_Stagehttp://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Bracket_Stage
That's my point. He was not a priority pick/ban until worlds, which was was in part due to Jax's strength at worlds
Renekton was banned once in NA LCS and 0 times in EU LCS and OGN Summer.
On an unrelated note, I feel like I'm the only one excited that Esports is even more mainstream now with the OnGamers beta site seeing how it's part of CBS. Or did I miss the hype.
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On November 08 2013 13:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 12:49 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 08 2013 12:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 10:53 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 10:08 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 09:31 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 07:39 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 06:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I also don't think renekton is a problem. He definitely has counters and bad matchups; the issue is that the current fotm top laners are all handily beaten by renekton. What are these counters? My experience is he is always annoying unless played by a baddie. His lategame is not horrifying compared to some of the other toplaners, but what games are decided lategame anyways? In my experience, Irelia does pretty well against Renekton if she can survive the first 3~4 levels w/out getting too far behind, which isn't too hard with a dshield start and early jungle pressure. I've also been able to regularly stomp Renektons in high plat with GP, although a good part of that could be because they don't know how to play against GP and GP can at least go even in almost every lane. Basically, if you can punish Renekton when he's trying to generate fury it's a favorable matchup. Renekton's damage output is pathetic w/out enraged abilities. Koreasilver mentioned Olaf and I remember he did pretty well against Renek. Thing about Renekton is that if he can't generate fury or if he has to waste Q cooldowns generating fury he's in a bad place. So champions that can abuse that like Olaf, Irelia, GP who can harass and outtrade him when he moves up to cs/generate fury tend to do well. In contrast, champs like Shen, Jax, Malphite, who either have weak early games or bad sustained harass get wrecked by Renekton. I dont know anything about GP matchups, but I love Irelia, and find that if the jungle pressure is equal it is much worse for Irelia, and in a 2v2 she is weaker, generally. She has a better lategame, but I don't thing her tenacity really outmatches his natural tankiness until she gets TF+1.5 tank items (like Randuins + Negatron or SV+Wardens). Olaf is much the same, his place in the game is dubious to me right now. I agree with the premise that Renekton can be dealt with, I just think he needs to be dealt with by a team, or just get terribly outplayed, so thats why I find him super annoying. That, plus, of course, manaless. Yea in my experience Renekton bullies Irelia really hard early, but with a dshield start and some jungle babysitting, if Irelia gets to level 6+ without being too far behind in exp or items she starts to bully Renekton, because Renekton simply can't deal with the sustained true damage harass and his slice and dice isn't very helpful for disengaging since Irelia has bladesurge. I'm also like 95% sure that the reason why Renekton surged in popularity, especially at Worlds and onwards, was because of Jax's surge in popularity and Renekton wrecks Jax. Jax's laning is pretty weak early on since his abilities hit like wet noodles until he gets items and levels. Jax can manfight virtually anyone in the game, but only after he gets significant farm and levels (by significant I mean Triforce, maybe Bork and at least level 6, probably more). Renekton was a priority toplane pick way before worlds. He and Shen are probably #1/2 toplane picks/bans since Summer Splits started, and its not hard to see why. Jax's surge came as a result of the TF buffs, plus the fact they he was basically a lategame Shen counter, because he outsplitpushes and outduels the fat ninja. Plus, if you have Jax vs. Renekton they would always 2v1, because at lvl 6 the matchup is kinda even (with Jax being better off as it goes on), which is kinda like the Irelia situation you described. Not true. Renekton was picked a total of 15 games in NA LCS Summer split and only 9 times in EU LCS Summer split both out of over 110 games. In OGN Summer, he was picked in 8 games out of 80. Renekton picked up a decent amount of steam in the LPL. Regardless, Renekton definitely was not a priority pick prior to Worlds outside of China. Do you know how many times he was banned? 15 games picked isn't high, but maybe he was banned a lot. edit: Looks like 32 games he was either picked or banned in worlds to me. http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Group_Stagehttp://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Bracket_Stage That's my point. He was not a priority pick/ban until worlds, which was was in part due to Jax's strength at worlds Renekton was banned once in NA LCS and 0 times in EU LCS and OGN Summer. On an unrelated note, I feel like I'm the only one excited that Esports is even more mainstream now with the OnGamers beta site seeing how it's part of CBS. Or did I miss the hype.
I was unaware it was part of CBS. That changes things...
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iirc CBS Interactive was also involved with Twitch until around june, when Twitch decided to setup their own Ad sales team
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On November 08 2013 13:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 12:49 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 08 2013 12:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 10:53 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 10:08 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 09:31 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 07:39 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 06:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I also don't think renekton is a problem. He definitely has counters and bad matchups; the issue is that the current fotm top laners are all handily beaten by renekton. What are these counters? My experience is he is always annoying unless played by a baddie. His lategame is not horrifying compared to some of the other toplaners, but what games are decided lategame anyways? In my experience, Irelia does pretty well against Renekton if she can survive the first 3~4 levels w/out getting too far behind, which isn't too hard with a dshield start and early jungle pressure. I've also been able to regularly stomp Renektons in high plat with GP, although a good part of that could be because they don't know how to play against GP and GP can at least go even in almost every lane. Basically, if you can punish Renekton when he's trying to generate fury it's a favorable matchup. Renekton's damage output is pathetic w/out enraged abilities. Koreasilver mentioned Olaf and I remember he did pretty well against Renek. Thing about Renekton is that if he can't generate fury or if he has to waste Q cooldowns generating fury he's in a bad place. So champions that can abuse that like Olaf, Irelia, GP who can harass and outtrade him when he moves up to cs/generate fury tend to do well. In contrast, champs like Shen, Jax, Malphite, who either have weak early games or bad sustained harass get wrecked by Renekton. I dont know anything about GP matchups, but I love Irelia, and find that if the jungle pressure is equal it is much worse for Irelia, and in a 2v2 she is weaker, generally. She has a better lategame, but I don't thing her tenacity really outmatches his natural tankiness until she gets TF+1.5 tank items (like Randuins + Negatron or SV+Wardens). Olaf is much the same, his place in the game is dubious to me right now. I agree with the premise that Renekton can be dealt with, I just think he needs to be dealt with by a team, or just get terribly outplayed, so thats why I find him super annoying. That, plus, of course, manaless. Yea in my experience Renekton bullies Irelia really hard early, but with a dshield start and some jungle babysitting, if Irelia gets to level 6+ without being too far behind in exp or items she starts to bully Renekton, because Renekton simply can't deal with the sustained true damage harass and his slice and dice isn't very helpful for disengaging since Irelia has bladesurge. I'm also like 95% sure that the reason why Renekton surged in popularity, especially at Worlds and onwards, was because of Jax's surge in popularity and Renekton wrecks Jax. Jax's laning is pretty weak early on since his abilities hit like wet noodles until he gets items and levels. Jax can manfight virtually anyone in the game, but only after he gets significant farm and levels (by significant I mean Triforce, maybe Bork and at least level 6, probably more). Renekton was a priority toplane pick way before worlds. He and Shen are probably #1/2 toplane picks/bans since Summer Splits started, and its not hard to see why. Jax's surge came as a result of the TF buffs, plus the fact they he was basically a lategame Shen counter, because he outsplitpushes and outduels the fat ninja. Plus, if you have Jax vs. Renekton they would always 2v1, because at lvl 6 the matchup is kinda even (with Jax being better off as it goes on), which is kinda like the Irelia situation you described. Not true. Renekton was picked a total of 15 games in NA LCS Summer split and only 9 times in EU LCS Summer split both out of over 110 games. In OGN Summer, he was picked in 8 games out of 80. Renekton picked up a decent amount of steam in the LPL. Regardless, Renekton definitely was not a priority pick prior to Worlds outside of China. Do you know how many times he was banned? 15 games picked isn't high, but maybe he was banned a lot. edit: Looks like 32 games he was either picked or banned in worlds to me. http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Group_Stagehttp://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Bracket_Stage That's my point. He was not a priority pick/ban until worlds, which was was in part due to Jax's strength at worlds Renekton was banned once in NA LCS and 0 times in EU LCS and OGN Summer. On an unrelated note, I feel like I'm the only one excited that Esports is even more mainstream now with the OnGamers beta site seeing how it's part of CBS. Or did I miss the hype.
How was he a response to Jax, when He surged prior to Jax?
Edit:
Also you ignore all the other champions that were kinda toplaners, but were not strong at worlds: Rumble, Kennen, Elise (top), and most importantly: ZAC. The ZAC nerfs basically changed the entire meta because there was no longer this incredibly OP herbivore AP Bruiser.
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On November 08 2013 14:28 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 13:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 12:49 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 08 2013 12:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 10:53 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 10:08 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 09:31 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 07:39 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 06:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I also don't think renekton is a problem. He definitely has counters and bad matchups; the issue is that the current fotm top laners are all handily beaten by renekton. What are these counters? My experience is he is always annoying unless played by a baddie. His lategame is not horrifying compared to some of the other toplaners, but what games are decided lategame anyways? In my experience, Irelia does pretty well against Renekton if she can survive the first 3~4 levels w/out getting too far behind, which isn't too hard with a dshield start and early jungle pressure. I've also been able to regularly stomp Renektons in high plat with GP, although a good part of that could be because they don't know how to play against GP and GP can at least go even in almost every lane. Basically, if you can punish Renekton when he's trying to generate fury it's a favorable matchup. Renekton's damage output is pathetic w/out enraged abilities. Koreasilver mentioned Olaf and I remember he did pretty well against Renek. Thing about Renekton is that if he can't generate fury or if he has to waste Q cooldowns generating fury he's in a bad place. So champions that can abuse that like Olaf, Irelia, GP who can harass and outtrade him when he moves up to cs/generate fury tend to do well. In contrast, champs like Shen, Jax, Malphite, who either have weak early games or bad sustained harass get wrecked by Renekton. I dont know anything about GP matchups, but I love Irelia, and find that if the jungle pressure is equal it is much worse for Irelia, and in a 2v2 she is weaker, generally. She has a better lategame, but I don't thing her tenacity really outmatches his natural tankiness until she gets TF+1.5 tank items (like Randuins + Negatron or SV+Wardens). Olaf is much the same, his place in the game is dubious to me right now. I agree with the premise that Renekton can be dealt with, I just think he needs to be dealt with by a team, or just get terribly outplayed, so thats why I find him super annoying. That, plus, of course, manaless. Yea in my experience Renekton bullies Irelia really hard early, but with a dshield start and some jungle babysitting, if Irelia gets to level 6+ without being too far behind in exp or items she starts to bully Renekton, because Renekton simply can't deal with the sustained true damage harass and his slice and dice isn't very helpful for disengaging since Irelia has bladesurge. I'm also like 95% sure that the reason why Renekton surged in popularity, especially at Worlds and onwards, was because of Jax's surge in popularity and Renekton wrecks Jax. Jax's laning is pretty weak early on since his abilities hit like wet noodles until he gets items and levels. Jax can manfight virtually anyone in the game, but only after he gets significant farm and levels (by significant I mean Triforce, maybe Bork and at least level 6, probably more). Renekton was a priority toplane pick way before worlds. He and Shen are probably #1/2 toplane picks/bans since Summer Splits started, and its not hard to see why. Jax's surge came as a result of the TF buffs, plus the fact they he was basically a lategame Shen counter, because he outsplitpushes and outduels the fat ninja. Plus, if you have Jax vs. Renekton they would always 2v1, because at lvl 6 the matchup is kinda even (with Jax being better off as it goes on), which is kinda like the Irelia situation you described. Not true. Renekton was picked a total of 15 games in NA LCS Summer split and only 9 times in EU LCS Summer split both out of over 110 games. In OGN Summer, he was picked in 8 games out of 80. Renekton picked up a decent amount of steam in the LPL. Regardless, Renekton definitely was not a priority pick prior to Worlds outside of China. Do you know how many times he was banned? 15 games picked isn't high, but maybe he was banned a lot. edit: Looks like 32 games he was either picked or banned in worlds to me. http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Group_Stagehttp://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Bracket_Stage That's my point. He was not a priority pick/ban until worlds, which was was in part due to Jax's strength at worlds Renekton was banned once in NA LCS and 0 times in EU LCS and OGN Summer. On an unrelated note, I feel like I'm the only one excited that Esports is even more mainstream now with the OnGamers beta site seeing how it's part of CBS. Or did I miss the hype. How was he a response to Jax, when He surged prior to Jax?
What? Renekton didn't surge prior to Jax... Renekton was picked early on during the Summer Split as a hold-over from Spring Split where he was immensely popular. Then as Summer Split developed, the meta changed to favor tanky utility top laners like Zac and Shen. Renekton went virtually unplayed for the latter portion of Summer Split. Then during Worlds, Renekton was virtually unpicked or banned in the group stages*. Renekton was largely ignored until the bracket stage when Jax became highly contested following Najin's stellar performance with Jax in their matches against SKT T1.
*The exception to this are the games involving OMG and Royal because the Chinese scene was the sole scene where Renekton never rotated out of the meta as the Chinese scene favors strong and early aggressive picks, which Renekton is perfect for. It's also worth noting that Royal and OMG pick/banned Renekton virtually every game they played.
On November 08 2013 14:28 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 13:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 12:49 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 08 2013 12:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 10:53 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 10:08 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 09:31 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 07:39 cLutZ wrote:On November 08 2013 06:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I also don't think renekton is a problem. He definitely has counters and bad matchups; the issue is that the current fotm top laners are all handily beaten by renekton. What are these counters? My experience is he is always annoying unless played by a baddie. His lategame is not horrifying compared to some of the other toplaners, but what games are decided lategame anyways? In my experience, Irelia does pretty well against Renekton if she can survive the first 3~4 levels w/out getting too far behind, which isn't too hard with a dshield start and early jungle pressure. I've also been able to regularly stomp Renektons in high plat with GP, although a good part of that could be because they don't know how to play against GP and GP can at least go even in almost every lane. Basically, if you can punish Renekton when he's trying to generate fury it's a favorable matchup. Renekton's damage output is pathetic w/out enraged abilities. Koreasilver mentioned Olaf and I remember he did pretty well against Renek. Thing about Renekton is that if he can't generate fury or if he has to waste Q cooldowns generating fury he's in a bad place. So champions that can abuse that like Olaf, Irelia, GP who can harass and outtrade him when he moves up to cs/generate fury tend to do well. In contrast, champs like Shen, Jax, Malphite, who either have weak early games or bad sustained harass get wrecked by Renekton. I dont know anything about GP matchups, but I love Irelia, and find that if the jungle pressure is equal it is much worse for Irelia, and in a 2v2 she is weaker, generally. She has a better lategame, but I don't thing her tenacity really outmatches his natural tankiness until she gets TF+1.5 tank items (like Randuins + Negatron or SV+Wardens). Olaf is much the same, his place in the game is dubious to me right now. I agree with the premise that Renekton can be dealt with, I just think he needs to be dealt with by a team, or just get terribly outplayed, so thats why I find him super annoying. That, plus, of course, manaless. Yea in my experience Renekton bullies Irelia really hard early, but with a dshield start and some jungle babysitting, if Irelia gets to level 6+ without being too far behind in exp or items she starts to bully Renekton, because Renekton simply can't deal with the sustained true damage harass and his slice and dice isn't very helpful for disengaging since Irelia has bladesurge. I'm also like 95% sure that the reason why Renekton surged in popularity, especially at Worlds and onwards, was because of Jax's surge in popularity and Renekton wrecks Jax. Jax's laning is pretty weak early on since his abilities hit like wet noodles until he gets items and levels. Jax can manfight virtually anyone in the game, but only after he gets significant farm and levels (by significant I mean Triforce, maybe Bork and at least level 6, probably more). Renekton was a priority toplane pick way before worlds. He and Shen are probably #1/2 toplane picks/bans since Summer Splits started, and its not hard to see why. Jax's surge came as a result of the TF buffs, plus the fact they he was basically a lategame Shen counter, because he outsplitpushes and outduels the fat ninja. Plus, if you have Jax vs. Renekton they would always 2v1, because at lvl 6 the matchup is kinda even (with Jax being better off as it goes on), which is kinda like the Irelia situation you described. Not true. Renekton was picked a total of 15 games in NA LCS Summer split and only 9 times in EU LCS Summer split both out of over 110 games. In OGN Summer, he was picked in 8 games out of 80. Renekton picked up a decent amount of steam in the LPL. Regardless, Renekton definitely was not a priority pick prior to Worlds outside of China. Do you know how many times he was banned? 15 games picked isn't high, but maybe he was banned a lot. edit: Looks like 32 games he was either picked or banned in worlds to me. http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Group_Stagehttp://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Bracket_Stage That's my point. He was not a priority pick/ban until worlds, which was was in part due to Jax's strength at worlds Renekton was banned once in NA LCS and 0 times in EU LCS and OGN Summer. On an unrelated note, I feel like I'm the only one excited that Esports is even more mainstream now with the OnGamers beta site seeing how it's part of CBS. Or did I miss the hype. Also you ignore all the other champions that were kinda toplaners, but were not strong at worlds: Rumble, Kennen, Elise (top), and most importantly: ZAC. The ZAC nerfs basically changed the entire meta because there was no longer this incredibly OP herbivore AP Bruiser.
Because the discussion that was going on was literally just about Renekton being a priority pick prior to Worlds, which is untrue. Yes, he fell out of favor because of many reasons including Zac's release, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
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Is there a good video any of you know of that has a good explination on how to capatalize on a big advantage in lane to help win the game for your team? I've been having a streak of games (like 12-13 in a row, quite a few before 2 free wins I got from AFK's) where I win game almost every game pretty badly (one game I was forced to mid instead of top, and I'm not a good mid laner!) and I still lose game pretty horribly. Obviously I did something good in lane, but it seems like there has to be more I can do to win the game when I win top lane and I just dont know what.
If anyone can link me to something, that would be great !
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take tower take dragon invade jungle
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On November 08 2013 12:00 HazMat wrote:
Anyone taking part in my community montage? Should I make a thread?
edit: ya i didnt think so
To what are you referring?
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So, slight random aside: Mancloud mentioned on his stream last night/this morning (around 12:25am CST) that the Janna buff to her shield (in season 4 PBE) turned Riven into some one-shotting combo machine. The thing he'd said was Janna shield and Riven with Hydra and BT and possibly LW (basically things most Riven people would build on her). Janna E gave like +100 AD, and Riven then using her R made Riven gain something like +500 AD for a few seconds, so she could literally R x 2 then dive in with Q+E and Hydra + W and Q some more and basically 1 (technically 1.5)v5 a team no contest.
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On November 08 2013 03:34 AsnSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 03:11 Sponkz wrote:On November 08 2013 02:27 zulu_nation8 wrote:
They should kick Genja No, yellowpete needs to learn how you position yourself properly. When he learns, they can kick Genja LOL. lol speaking of yellowpete ![[image loading]](https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/903483_607796995932620_1705518910_o.jpg)
He plays for TSM now? How'd he piss Regi off so soon?
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Sept 15: 4 Renke Picks, 1 Renek Ban. 0 Jax
16: 1 Renkek Pick
17: 2 Pick, 1 Ban Renek
19: 1 Renek Ban
20: 1 Pick 1 Ban Renek. 1 Pick Jax
21: 4 Renek Picks. 1 Renek Ban
Basically, in the groups, toplane was a cornucopia of: Shen, Renketon, ZAC, Rumble, Vlad, and Kennen. with 1 Jax pick. Then people slowly worked towards what was ideal...In quarters it got somewhat established.
Shen: 6 Pick/3 Ban
Renenk:4/2
Jax: 1/3 (all 3 bans in NJS by Gambit)
After that, it was on. IN SKTT1 vs. NJS Jax/Shen/Renekton all had 100% Pick/Ban Rates, and in Fnatic v,s Royal Shen had 100%, Renekton 3/4, Jax was picked 1/4 games with no bans.
Finals was 100% Ban of both Shen and Renekton and 100% Pick of Jax. Your pattern of event makes no sense. From facts.
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On November 08 2013 16:21 cLutZ wrote:Sept 15: 4 Renke Picks, 1 Renek Ban. 0 Jax 16: 1 Renkek Pick 17: 2 Pick, 1 Ban Renek 19: 1 Renek Ban 20: 1 Pick 1 Ban Renek. 1 Pick Jax 21: 4 Renek Picks. 1 Renek Ban Basically, in the groups, toplane was a cornucopia of: Shen, Renketon, ZAC, Rumble, Vlad, and Kennen. with 1 Jax pick. Then people slowly worked towards what was ideal...In quarters it got somewhat established. Shen: 6 Pick/3 Ban Renenk:4/2 Jax: 1/3 (all 3 bans in NJS by Gambit) After that, it was on. IN SKTT1 vs. NJS Jax/Shen/Renekton all had 100% Pick/Ban Rates, and in Fnatic v,s Royal Shen had 100%, Renekton 3/4, Jax was picked 1/4 games with no bans. Finals was 100% Ban of both Shen and Renekton and 100% Pick of Jax. Your pattern of event makes no sense. From facts.
.....................
you seriously ignored my entire post didn't you.
let me break it down for you. again.
Renekton next to no play before Worlds in NA, EU, KR. (This is my main point - go reread my posts).
World Group stages: I'm gonna ignore GG.eu and Mineski games because they were, quite honestly, stompfests and any of the other teams could've beaten them with anything. Early on in the group stages, Renekton was literally only picked up in OMG's games because China loves Renekton. The croc gets picked up sparingly by other regions here and there, but is far from a staple pick, especially compared to Shen, Zac, Aatrox. Hell, Singed saw as much play as Renekton in group stages if you ignore OMG's games.
World Group brackets: By this time, Renekton is being played more in part of how strong OMG is doing with him and other regions are catching on. He was still completely ignored by EU and NA teams during quarterfinals. In semis, Ozone starts showing SKT up with Jax, cementing Renekton's place in the meta. Royal v. Fnatic obviously has Renekton cause China.
The rest is history.
But again. My original point. RENEKTON WAS NOT A STAPLE PICK BEFORE WORLDS. I also have re-iterate the fact that Worlds stats for Renekton are skewed (at least early on) because China did very well at Worlds and China is the outlier region in terms of actually playing Renekton during the summer season. I am in no way implying Renekton wasn't a major player at Worlds and post-Worlds. Rather, Renekton was NOT a staple pick in 3 of the 4 major regions until Worlds (read: China + Jax).
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On November 08 2013 16:43 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 16:21 cLutZ wrote:Sept 15: 4 Renke Picks, 1 Renek Ban. 0 Jax 16: 1 Renkek Pick 17: 2 Pick, 1 Ban Renek 19: 1 Renek Ban 20: 1 Pick 1 Ban Renek. 1 Pick Jax 21: 4 Renek Picks. 1 Renek Ban Basically, in the groups, toplane was a cornucopia of: Shen, Renketon, ZAC, Rumble, Vlad, and Kennen. with 1 Jax pick. Then people slowly worked towards what was ideal...In quarters it got somewhat established. Shen: 6 Pick/3 Ban Renenk:4/2 Jax: 1/3 (all 3 bans in NJS by Gambit) After that, it was on. IN SKTT1 vs. NJS Jax/Shen/Renekton all had 100% Pick/Ban Rates, and in Fnatic v,s Royal Shen had 100%, Renekton 3/4, Jax was picked 1/4 games with no bans. Finals was 100% Ban of both Shen and Renekton and 100% Pick of Jax. Your pattern of event makes no sense. From facts. ..................... you seriously ignored my entire post didn't you. let me break it down for you. again. Renekton next to no play before Worlds in NA, EU, KR. (This is my main point - go reread my posts). World Group stages: I'm gonna ignore GG.eu and Mineski games because they were, quite honestly, stompfests and any of the other teams could've beaten them with anything. Early on in the group stages, Renekton was literally only picked up in OMG's games because China loves Renekton. The croc gets picked up sparingly by other regions here and there, but is far from a staple pick, especially compared to Shen, Zac, Aatrox. Hell, Singed saw as much play as Renekton in group stages if you ignore OMG's games. World Group brackets: By this time, Renekton is being played more in part of how strong OMG is doing with him and other regions are catching on. He was still completely ignored by EU and NA teams during quarterfinals. In semis, Ozone starts showing SKT up with Jax, cementing Renekton's place in the meta. Royal v. Fnatic obviously has Renekton cause China. The rest is history. But again. My original point. RENEKTON WAS NOT A STAPLE PICK BEFORE WORLDS. I also have re-iterate the fact that Worlds stats for Renekton are skewed (at least early on) because China did very well at Worlds and China is the outlier region in terms of actually playing Renekton during the summer season. I am in no way implying Renekton wasn't a major player at Worlds and post-Worlds. Rather, Renekton was NOT a staple pick in 3 of the 4 major regions until Worlds (read: China + Jax).
I think your point stands. Renekton was largely underplayed prior to worlds. Westrice was well known in NA for using him after the Irelia nerfs. edit: to clarify, the irelia nerfs where her W healing was halved when not active.
Whenever someone asked why Renekton was so underplayed in solo queue people always said they didn't know. Just that his late game wasn't great.
Anyways you seem way too invested in this discussion. If someone doesn't read what you wrote or misinterprets your meaning multiple times, there's no point.
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On November 08 2013 16:54 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 16:43 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 08 2013 16:21 cLutZ wrote:Sept 15: 4 Renke Picks, 1 Renek Ban. 0 Jax 16: 1 Renkek Pick 17: 2 Pick, 1 Ban Renek 19: 1 Renek Ban 20: 1 Pick 1 Ban Renek. 1 Pick Jax 21: 4 Renek Picks. 1 Renek Ban Basically, in the groups, toplane was a cornucopia of: Shen, Renketon, ZAC, Rumble, Vlad, and Kennen. with 1 Jax pick. Then people slowly worked towards what was ideal...In quarters it got somewhat established. Shen: 6 Pick/3 Ban Renenk:4/2 Jax: 1/3 (all 3 bans in NJS by Gambit) After that, it was on. IN SKTT1 vs. NJS Jax/Shen/Renekton all had 100% Pick/Ban Rates, and in Fnatic v,s Royal Shen had 100%, Renekton 3/4, Jax was picked 1/4 games with no bans. Finals was 100% Ban of both Shen and Renekton and 100% Pick of Jax. Your pattern of event makes no sense. From facts. ..................... you seriously ignored my entire post didn't you. let me break it down for you. again. Renekton next to no play before Worlds in NA, EU, KR. (This is my main point - go reread my posts). World Group stages: I'm gonna ignore GG.eu and Mineski games because they were, quite honestly, stompfests and any of the other teams could've beaten them with anything. Early on in the group stages, Renekton was literally only picked up in OMG's games because China loves Renekton. The croc gets picked up sparingly by other regions here and there, but is far from a staple pick, especially compared to Shen, Zac, Aatrox. Hell, Singed saw as much play as Renekton in group stages if you ignore OMG's games. World Group brackets: By this time, Renekton is being played more in part of how strong OMG is doing with him and other regions are catching on. He was still completely ignored by EU and NA teams during quarterfinals. In semis, Ozone starts showing SKT up with Jax, cementing Renekton's place in the meta. Royal v. Fnatic obviously has Renekton cause China. The rest is history. But again. My original point. RENEKTON WAS NOT A STAPLE PICK BEFORE WORLDS. I also have re-iterate the fact that Worlds stats for Renekton are skewed (at least early on) because China did very well at Worlds and China is the outlier region in terms of actually playing Renekton during the summer season. I am in no way implying Renekton wasn't a major player at Worlds and post-Worlds. Rather, Renekton was NOT a staple pick in 3 of the 4 major regions until Worlds (read: China + Jax). I think your point stands. Renekton was largely underplayed prior to worlds. Westrice was well known in NA for using him after the Irelia nerfs. Whenever someone asked why Renekton was so underplayed in solo queue people always said they didn't know. Just that his late game wasn't great. Anyways you seem way too invested in this discussion. If someone doesn't read what you wrote or misinterprets your meaning multiple times, there's no point.
yea I think you're right.
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EPT
