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On October 26 2013 12:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 12:29 obesechicken13 wrote:On October 26 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Question for junglers: Why is the common route for mana junglers to be blue (with smite) -> wraiths -> golems -> red -> wraiths -> wolves or something similar where wolves are avoided until almost the last camp? Mana junglers try not to do blue with smite. They try to save it for red. It goes blue->red (smite) -> wraiths, etc... Yea, but why are wolves always kind of a last resort on the route? Why not: blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> gank top/mid as level 4 -> wraiths -> golems (smite is usually back up for this second round when using smite on red) -> b This is possible for yi at least if you skill q-e-w-q and it lets you go in to gank with nearly full hp still
Because if you do it that way it's more like:
Blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> Oh my red is already gone I'm level 2 and the enemy jungler is level 4 and gets 3 buffs.
Or
Blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> Oh my top laner is already dead.
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On October 26 2013 12:34 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 12:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 26 2013 12:29 obesechicken13 wrote:On October 26 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Question for junglers: Why is the common route for mana junglers to be blue (with smite) -> wraiths -> golems -> red -> wraiths -> wolves or something similar where wolves are avoided until almost the last camp? Mana junglers try not to do blue with smite. They try to save it for red. It goes blue->red (smite) -> wraiths, etc... Yea, but why are wolves always kind of a last resort on the route? Why not: blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> gank top/mid as level 4 -> wraiths -> golems (smite is usually back up for this second round when using smite on red) -> b This is possible for yi at least if you skill q-e-w-q and it lets you go in to gank with nearly full hp still Because then your top lane gets lvl 3 ganked. And this time it's legitimately your fault because your too busy jerking off in the jungle instead of ganking top. Or they walk into your jungle and rape you, cuz they lvl 3 and your lvl2 at wraiths.
Then you have your top play defensive around that time and you come in with level 4 + 3 vs 2 level 3's. And they need to do blue + red + another camp to hit 3, right? So you should be level 3 by the time they hit you as well since blue + wolves + wraiths gets you level 3.
On October 26 2013 12:35 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 12:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 26 2013 12:29 obesechicken13 wrote:On October 26 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Question for junglers: Why is the common route for mana junglers to be blue (with smite) -> wraiths -> golems -> red -> wraiths -> wolves or something similar where wolves are avoided until almost the last camp? Mana junglers try not to do blue with smite. They try to save it for red. It goes blue->red (smite) -> wraiths, etc... Yea, but why are wolves always kind of a last resort on the route? Why not: blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> gank top/mid as level 4 -> wraiths -> golems (smite is usually back up for this second round when using smite on red) -> b This is possible for yi at least if you skill q-e-w-q and it lets you go in to gank with nearly full hp still Because if you do it that way it's more like: Blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> Oh my red is already gone I'm level 2 and the enemy jungler is level 4 and gets 3 buffs. Or Blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> Oh my top laner is already dead.
Do jungles really play so aggressive to invade after blue + red?
I mean, if the meta is the same then top should know to play back and you just abuse the meta and come out ahead in most cases it seems.
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Wut. Yes. They do. Especially considering how ward happy lvl 1 supports are. It's pretty standard to invade and ward up enemy jungle and back out.
And asking your top lane to play passive early on is asking for him to forfeit lanes because they can't abuse lvl 2 or lvl3 power spike in match up
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Nice to see Chaox returning to competitive scene as a player!
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On October 26 2013 12:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 12:29 obesechicken13 wrote:On October 26 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Question for junglers: Why is the common route for mana junglers to be blue (with smite) -> wraiths -> golems -> red -> wraiths -> wolves or something similar where wolves are avoided until almost the last camp? Mana junglers try not to do blue with smite. They try to save it for red. It goes blue->red (smite) -> wraiths, etc... Yea, but why are wolves always kind of a last resort on the route? Why not: blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> gank top/mid as level 4 -> wraiths -> golems (smite is usually back up for this second round when using smite on red) -> b This is possible for yi at least if you skill q-e-w-q and it lets you go in to gank with nearly full hp still
That was a season 2 clear path when wraiths were worth more gold/xp, you could do wolves at 1:40 and they weren't up again after blue, and power farming was a legitimate option. Nowadays, unless you're playing a terrible ganker and your laners are prepared for you to not help them, it's expected to have the jungler help provide advantage to the lanes. Usually you can either gank or countergank somewhere. When you can't, you farm. But expecting to do 2 full jungle clears nowadays is pretty crazy, as your time is better spent elsewhere. Also, as you get better at jungling, you can position yourself at camps that allow you to react for a countergank if the other jungler "goes for it" while you are close.
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United States7639 Posts
If the top lane minions aren't right at the tower when the level 3 gank is coming and you want your top to "play safe" so he doesn't die to the inevitable 1v2 situation, he is going to get zoned and lose out on farm and exp. Lane farm and exp is always better than small jungle camps. You're better off heading up there to back him up and get a good counter gank off than letting your top starve while you spend time getting negligible exp/gold from small camps.
I would say 90% of my games have the opponent jungle -> level 3 gank top thing.
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On October 26 2013 12:49 smOOthMayDie wrote:
Nice to see Chaox returning to competitive scene as a player!
What?
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The blue (or red) => red (or blue) => L3 gank is basically standard as far as I am concerned. It's a very fast L3 gank, which means the laners they want to gank will have the minimum XP (so it has a higher chance of working). You ignore wolves and shit because in order to hit L3 without taking both blue and red it's slow as hell, and you need to clear out your entire jungle to hit L4 if you want to L4 gank.
In fact even if you don't want to L3 gank, you will probably want to be positioned to countergank just in case the enemy jungler wants to L3 gank himself.
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I really want Urgot to be good and he's just NOT. Sigh.
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I guess it just feels a bit strange since most people around me arent that great yet (I never get counter-jungled). I have been doing the farm jungle like crazy with yi and keep an eye out for possible scenarios for ME to gank (or to help push the enemy champion back to put the lane closer to the middle), and otherwise farm. Yi's speed usually has me ahead on levels and sometimes gold pretty quickly.
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On October 26 2013 13:15 Ketara wrote:
I really want Urgot to be good and he's just NOT. Sigh.
He needs coordinated 5s to be useful. New triforce would prolly be pretty bonkers on him. If he could get to that point
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On October 26 2013 12:53 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 12:49 smOOthMayDie wrote:
Nice to see Chaox returning to competitive scene as a player! What?
Return to competitive League of Legends
On October 6th, 2013, Chaox announced that he is offically looking for a competitive team
http://lol.gamepedia.com/Chaox
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On October 26 2013 13:21 smOOthMayDie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 12:53 Gahlo wrote:On October 26 2013 12:49 smOOthMayDie wrote:
Nice to see Chaox returning to competitive scene as a player! What? Return to competitive League of Legends On October 6th, 2013, Chaox announced that he is offically looking for a competitive team http://lol.gamepedia.com/Chaox
Uhh.. I think gahlo was referring to the fact that he just played in NESL with team NiD(Napkins in Disguise).
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On October 26 2013 13:20 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 13:15 Ketara wrote:
I really want Urgot to be good and he's just NOT. Sigh. He needs coordinated 5s to be useful. New triforce would prolly be pretty bonkers on him. If he could get to that point
Maybe if his mana costs weren't criminally retarded.
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On October 26 2013 12:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 12:34 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2013 12:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 26 2013 12:29 obesechicken13 wrote:On October 26 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Question for junglers: Why is the common route for mana junglers to be blue (with smite) -> wraiths -> golems -> red -> wraiths -> wolves or something similar where wolves are avoided until almost the last camp? Mana junglers try not to do blue with smite. They try to save it for red. It goes blue->red (smite) -> wraiths, etc... Yea, but why are wolves always kind of a last resort on the route? Why not: blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> gank top/mid as level 4 -> wraiths -> golems (smite is usually back up for this second round when using smite on red) -> b This is possible for yi at least if you skill q-e-w-q and it lets you go in to gank with nearly full hp still Because then your top lane gets lvl 3 ganked. And this time it's legitimately your fault because your too busy jerking off in the jungle instead of ganking top. Or they walk into your jungle and rape you, cuz they lvl 3 and your lvl2 at wraiths. Then you have your top play defensive around that time and you come in with level 4 + 3 vs 2 level 3's. And they need to do blue + red + another camp to hit 3, right? So you should be level 3 by the time they hit you as well since blue + wolves + wraiths gets you level 3. Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 12:35 Ketara wrote:On October 26 2013 12:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 26 2013 12:29 obesechicken13 wrote:On October 26 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Question for junglers: Why is the common route for mana junglers to be blue (with smite) -> wraiths -> golems -> red -> wraiths -> wolves or something similar where wolves are avoided until almost the last camp? Mana junglers try not to do blue with smite. They try to save it for red. It goes blue->red (smite) -> wraiths, etc... Yea, but why are wolves always kind of a last resort on the route? Why not: blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> gank top/mid as level 4 -> wraiths -> golems (smite is usually back up for this second round when using smite on red) -> b This is possible for yi at least if you skill q-e-w-q and it lets you go in to gank with nearly full hp still Because if you do it that way it's more like: Blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> Oh my red is already gone I'm level 2 and the enemy jungler is level 4 and gets 3 buffs. Or Blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> Oh my top laner is already dead. Do jungles really play so aggressive to invade after blue + red? I mean, if the meta is the same then top should know to play back and you just abuse the meta and come out ahead in most cases it seems.
I think people gank at level 3 because there's basically nothing else to do after clearing blue/red. The only way to get to level 4 is to clear the golem camp or wait another minute, but clearing the golem camp isn't ideal since it is positioned in such a place that you really have to commit to get it, so most of the time, golem is the end route when there's nothing else to do.
It's advisable to try to gank at level 3 than to go golem for level 4. Not only it takes much longer time to get to level 4 (clear blue/red/wolf/wraith/golem compared to blue/red/(wraith)), but you kind of miss all the timing. Ganking at level 3, even if it's a success one or not, gain you one of these:
+ A kill
+ A summer spell burn
+ if the enemy feel afraid and get zoned out, your top/mid laner basically have 2 free waves since you're camping and waiting a minute for the neutral camp to respawn anyway.
+ if you gank and they have to burn 2 healthpot for example, that's basically you're swapping a golem camp for mid advantage (35+35 = 55+15), you lose your hp, but you have to go back to base anyway, so it doesn't really matter if you do it right.
One thing to mention that doing wolves at level 2 is very random, since wolves can do crit attack. If you do at level 2 and is unlucky, the wolf can burn you a couple of healthpot for free, which is kind of stupid. You should try to do the first wolf when you're about to go back to base or full health
The only good jungle route to get access to lvl 4 fast is when you're on the red side, which by clearing golem, you'll also have access to top lane. If you're blue and try to get to lvl 4 fast by clearing golem, you'll end up at bot, which is kind of useless at that point of the time.
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its so easy to get fb with lvl 3 gank on a lane that starts dorans ring mid or dorans shield top
if ur not doing that the other jungler is doing that and if hes successful ur already very behind
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On October 26 2013 13:27 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 13:21 smOOthMayDie wrote:On October 26 2013 12:53 Gahlo wrote:On October 26 2013 12:49 smOOthMayDie wrote:
Nice to see Chaox returning to competitive scene as a player! What? Return to competitive League of Legends On October 6th, 2013, Chaox announced that he is offically looking for a competitive team http://lol.gamepedia.com/Chaox Uhh.. I think gahlo was referring to the fact that he just played in NESL with team NiD(Napkins in Disguise).
Seemed like he was 'What?'ing my statement instead.
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On October 26 2013 12:50 Kiett wrote:
If the top lane minions aren't right at the tower when the level 3 gank is coming and you want your top to "play safe" so he doesn't die to the inevitable 1v2 situation, he is going to get zoned and lose out on farm and exp. Lane farm and exp is always better than small jungle camps. You're better off heading up there to back him up and get a good counter gank off than letting your top starve while you spend time getting negligible exp/gold from small camps.
I would say 90% of my games have the opponent jungle -> level 3 gank top thing.
Oh god this. As someone who mains top it makes me cry when my jungler decides to afk farm rather than coming top with double buffs and I have to zone myself unless I know their jungler is elsewhere or I'm extremely confident I won't die to a gank. I don't even expect or need them to get a successful gank off, just show presence so enemy jungler thinks twice.
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On October 26 2013 13:27 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 13:21 smOOthMayDie wrote:On October 26 2013 12:53 Gahlo wrote:On October 26 2013 12:49 smOOthMayDie wrote:
Nice to see Chaox returning to competitive scene as a player! What? Return to competitive League of Legends On October 6th, 2013, Chaox announced that he is offically looking for a competitive team http://lol.gamepedia.com/Chaox Uhh.. I think gahlo was referring to the fact that he just played in NESL with team NiD(Napkins in Disguise).
Nah, I made the mistake of playing this game instead of watching it.
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I think Urgot being unjustifiably bad is going to be my new bandwagon thing.
Here's some level 1 damage numbers I want to compare for you guys.
Ezreal Q: 28 mana, 114 damage, 1100 range.
Lucian Q: 60 mana, 99 damage, 1100 range.
Jinx W: 50 mana, 124 damage, 1500 range, 30% slow. (this is with the current nerfs)
Cait Q: 50 mana, 123 damage, 1300 range.
Varus Q: 70 mana, 140 damage, 1475 range.
Urgot Q: 40 mana, 69 damage, 1000 range.
Why in the flying fuck does Urgot's Q have the lowest range of all that, with the worst damage to mana spent ratio? By the way, it also has the worst AD ratio, the slowest missile speed, and can't go through minions.
What the fuck power creep Riot plz.
Buff Urgot.
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EPT
