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On September 30 2013 09:53 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 07:45 wei2coolman wrote:
Not to mention Lux passive and much better bind than morgana. Also, her aoe much more useful than tormented soil. Lux probably not optimal as a support in highest tier of play, but if you want to carry as a support she's probably one of the best supports to do so. As a carry-support, yes. However, she requires AP to get going, and that means gold. Comparatively, Morgana's kit is significantly better in a vacuum or low-gold environment, because the damn CC-shield is just that damn strong when used properly, and as a counterpick to CC lanes and junglers (while her ultimate also works well as counterinitiate+peel against divers).
Of course the situation where morgana is strong, she is better than lux. But lux is better overall imo.
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Morgana's snare is much better than Lux snare, don't kid yourself.
Morgana's snare has a longer range, moves faster, and snares longer. And has a lower cooldown. And does more damage.
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Lux's can hit up to 2 so...
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That's not important when you're supporting.
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On September 30 2013 09:55 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 09:53 Lord Tolkien wrote:On September 30 2013 07:45 wei2coolman wrote:
Not to mention Lux passive and much better bind than morgana. Also, her aoe much more useful than tormented soil. Lux probably not optimal as a support in highest tier of play, but if you want to carry as a support she's probably one of the best supports to do so. As a carry-support, yes. However, she requires AP to get going, and that means gold. Comparatively, Morgana's kit is significantly better in a vacuum or low-gold environment, because the damn CC-shield is just that damn strong when used properly, and as a counterpick to CC lanes and junglers (while her ultimate also works well as counterinitiate+peel against divers). Of course the situation where morgana is strong, she is better than lux. But lux is better overall imo.
And I do disagree with that. Lux as a support shines when she can get gold, and basically transition into another (moderate) burst threat. There are vanishing few scenarios where you can rely on getting that amount of gold as a support. Her E has great theoretical power, but actually getting a 5 man shield proc when a large AoE burst comes down is rare, and by maxed E time, it "only" absorbs what equals one moderate AoE's worth of damage.
Basically, while Morgana has a niche in terms of supports (and is unparalleled in that niche, which again isn't all that uncommon nowadays with the amount of Leonas and Vis you're starting to see), Lux's niche is much more difficult to build about, because being gold starved as Lux makes you pretty bleh in terms of game impact, and very rarely can you guarantee consistent kills and gold income as a support (unless you're Sona and secure all the kills). And Gold on Lux=more ap=more poke/burst, while more gold on, say, Morgana=Zhonyas=Massive, Yolo Initiations (which has a much more significant impact on teamfights than a Support Lux with modest burst, with 1 AP item).
I use to play Support Lux in S2, but she really suffers in the current gold starved, ward heavy environment. Morgana Support is useful without gold, because the shield is that damn powerful.
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On September 30 2013 10:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Lux's can hit up to 2 so...
On September 30 2013 10:10 Ketara wrote:
That's not important when you're supporting.
That's most important when you're supporting (in a 2v2 lane).
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On September 30 2013 10:10 Ketara wrote:
That's not important when you're supporting.
It is, if you aim for the 2nd lock up through a minion.
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Being able to hit 1 person past a minion is pretty useful, even if hitting 2 people is unlikely.
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On September 30 2013 10:11 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 10:10 Ketara wrote:
That's not important when you're supporting. That's most important when you're supporting (in a 2v2 lane).
Eh, it requires them to be lined up or generally spaced together.
Most people aren't going to line up or bunch up when playing against a Lux. They'll space in a sane environment.
Plus, I'd prefer 3s of CC on a single target than 2s on one and 1s on another, but that's just me.
On September 30 2013 10:12 TheHumanSensation wrote:
Being able to hit 1 person past a minion is pretty useful, even if hitting 2 people is unlikely.
It's half CC/damage on the second target, however. 1s of snare and 30-130 damage (+.35AP) is piddly.
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Lux support is just B tier Zyra support. We've talked about this a few times.
Zyra snare has the same range and speed as Lux snare, but snares everything for 1.75 secs.
Zyra Q is better damage than Lux E because the cooldown is much lower.
Zyra gets passive CDR.
Zyra seeds are better for temporary vision than Lux E.
Zyra's ult is useful without building any AP because it's AoE CC while Lux's is just damage.
Zyra passive and plants do damage based on level, which give her better damage on no gold and more objective control on no gold.
Lux's shield, while awesome, is not good enough to make up for all that. Lux support is just B tier Zyra support.
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On September 30 2013 10:15 Ketara wrote:
Lux support is just B tier Zyra support. We've talked about this a few times.
Zyra snare has the same range and speed as Lux snare, but snares everything for 1.75 secs.
Zyra Q is better damage than Lux E because the cooldown is much lower.
Zyra gets passive CDR.
Zyra seeds are better for temporary vision than Lux E.
Zyra's ult is useful without building any AP because it's AoE CC while Lux's is just damage.
Zyra passive and plants do damage based on level, which give her better damage on no gold and more objective control on no gold.
Lux's shield, while awesome, is not good enough to make up for all that. Lux support is just B tier Zyra support.
Kind of feel the same.
Morgana support, on the other hand, has no comparative competitors, because CC shield+3s Snare+Ultimate gives her a large amount of both CC and extremely strong utility, without any AP (though AP is nice), and shines particularly well versus certain team comps.
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Zyra is still better overall by a mile than morgana, even if she doesn't give the exact same utilities.
Your ult is completely useless outside of lane without zhonyas. It's even useless for zoning because you die instantly.
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On September 30 2013 10:15 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Lux support is just B tier Zyra support. We've talked about this a few times.
Zyra snare has the same range and speed as Lux snare, but snares everything for 1.75 secs.
Zyra Q is better damage than Lux E because the cooldown is much lower.
Zyra gets passive CDR.
Zyra seeds are better for temporary vision than Lux E.
Zyra's ult is useful without building any AP because it's AoE CC while Lux's is just damage.
Zyra passive and plants do damage based on level, which give her better damage on no gold and more objective control on no gold.
Lux's shield, while awesome, is not good enough to make up for all that. Lux support is just B tier Zyra support.
We weren't even talking about Lux vs Zyra >.>
Obviously Zyra stronger than Lux, no one is denying that...
Mostly just talking about how lux in isolation still has her benefits, and how she works in comparison to Morgana.
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I think both are pretty terrible supports but the strength of lux over morgana is dependable damage/harass whereas morgana has none if she doesn't land her bind. Also morgana has terrible AA range.
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On September 30 2013 10:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Zyra is still better overall by a mile than morgana, even if she doesn't give the exact same utilities.
Your ult is completely useless outside of lane without zhonyas. It's even useless for zoning because you die instantly.
Overall she's better but if you draft with/against specific comps/lanes morg E is beyond retarded.
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On September 30 2013 10:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Zyra is still better overall by a mile than morgana, even if she doesn't give the exact same utilities.
Zyra is significantly more useful overall as a blind pick support, and functions as a generalist due to her overall utility as a long range support that provides decent damage and alot of CC.
The reason you pick a Morgana support is because the enemy team has major single target lockdown. So picking her against a Leona/Vi combo, or against a Nautilus, or a Taric, basically neuters their kill potential, both in lane against ganks and Leona pressure, as well as in teamfights by preventing picks and allowing Vi/Nautilus/whomever to be readily peeled during these dives. Basically, picking a Morgana against some of these supports/champs renders these champions utterly, utterly useless. Leona can't CC train someone, Vi cannot ever lock anyone up (because all phys damage), etc.
In contrast, a Leona/Vi combo will probably kill Zyra (and Lux) lanes repeatedly, because once level 6 hits you're fked because double gap closers on Vi (1 which cannot be stopped) plus flash and Leona's lockdown=dead.
Much like Fiddle support, Morgana support is niche and specialist: but in the instances she can be used as a counterpick, is absurdly strong. You don't pick Morgana when the enemy team has a J4 jungle, for instance, but you can definitely pick it against an Ahri/Vi/Leona/Malphite/Varus team, when her power against such a teamcomp spikes dramatically.
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I always do so bad as fiddle support, even vs other shitters
Idk why
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On September 30 2013 10:35 UniversalSnip wrote:
I always do so bad as fiddle support, even vs other shitters
Idk why
He's made of paper, almost as much as Sona or Soraka. And without a reliable heal if you don't manage drain well, he kinda has issues unless you play right.
Or maybe you suck.
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Fk drain level qe only. Also fiddle has close to zero offensive kill potential
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On September 30 2013 10:38 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 10:35 UniversalSnip wrote:
I always do so bad as fiddle support, even vs other shitters
Idk why He's made of paper, almost as much as Sona or Soraka. And without a reliable heal if you don't manage drain well, he kinda has issues unless you play right. Or maybe you suck.
Who needs to be tanky if they're too busy being feared to attack you? :D
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EPT
