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On August 26 2013 07:20 Alaric wrote:
... so much bullshit.
Trundle's Q was a QoL buff because of the animation scaling with AS and the mini-slow, the AD buff/debuff was unchanged.
His W was a buff standing dps-wise but I personally consider it a nerf because Tenacity+%MS buff was a very strong combo to let him chase people/gtfo when he got caught in the enemy jungle, even in the early game (think about how Mundo used his W's Tenacity, 'cept Trundle didn't max W first).
His E was a buff because it interrupts channels now, however I'd rather call it a bug fix as it always displaced people, but for some reason it didn't stop channels contrary to every other displacement in the game.
His ult had its numbers nerfed (unless he ults somebody with little MR and a ridiculously high HP pool, which won't happen in the early/midgame anyway) but was buffed in an "oompf!" way since it ramps up faster and lasts longer (especially at max effect).
Where the heck did you see his passive changed or his Q losing the debuff or having its cooldown changed? You guys even linked the wiki, dafuk.
His passive hits 6% at 15 instead of 16 and in general his passive ranked up a level sooner at a couple of the levels.
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I'm trying not to get carried away because clearly old Trundle was not at the top of his game when he got reworked, his pick rate was absolutely in the dumpster, but if I had to pick Trundle in a game today vs. a team with Zac I'd take old Trundle.
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The new changes to zac will be good enough I think. Not having tenacity on his ult is pretty huge, and makes it a lot more dangerous for him to engage and also won't be a ridiculous gank escape.
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On August 26 2013 07:12 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 07:11 cLutZ wrote:On August 26 2013 06:43 Amui wrote:
Zac I think is stupid simply because his kit is too good.
Can farm decently in 1v2 - check
Can initiate from ludicrous range - check
Has insane sustain, made even more ridiculous by SV - check
manaless - check
2, 3 are probably what I'd look at. Being able to force flashes from so far away with a non-ultimate level spell is just stupid. I'd also look at his passive being 3-3.5%. Makes him a lot more vulnerable in lane because he doesn't trend towards 100%, but rather 75-87.5% health. That would be a good step, but IMO it should be like Mundo's cleaver. You are punished pretty badly in HP for missing, and if you hit you only lose half the hp you would have. Make it 4% Current cost, 2% current regen. That way you are not rewarded for leaving 6 blobs (exaggeration) lying around then getting a huge HP spike. you realize that what you suggest would make it so zac has no sustain right?
Yep, a champion having free sustain without cost is a problem.
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On August 26 2013 07:23 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 07:12 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 26 2013 07:11 cLutZ wrote:On August 26 2013 06:43 Amui wrote:
Zac I think is stupid simply because his kit is too good.
Can farm decently in 1v2 - check
Can initiate from ludicrous range - check
Has insane sustain, made even more ridiculous by SV - check
manaless - check
2, 3 are probably what I'd look at. Being able to force flashes from so far away with a non-ultimate level spell is just stupid. I'd also look at his passive being 3-3.5%. Makes him a lot more vulnerable in lane because he doesn't trend towards 100%, but rather 75-87.5% health. That would be a good step, but IMO it should be like Mundo's cleaver. You are punished pretty badly in HP for missing, and if you hit you only lose half the hp you would have. Make it 4% Current cost, 2% current regen. That way you are not rewarded for leaving 6 blobs (exaggeration) lying around then getting a huge HP spike. you realize that what you suggest would make it so zac has no sustain right? Yep, a champion having free sustain without cost is a problem.
well it DOES have a cost. you get long term sustain at the price of short term health, positioning, and potential failure. I mean mundo has free sustain without cost as well. but that doesn't you know make him a problem. Zac is just more versatile than mundo is.
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The scary part is if Zac didn't have his respawn passive he'd still be a good as he is now, and would still be picked at the rate he is now.
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On August 26 2013 07:20 Alaric wrote:
... so much bullshit.
Trundle's Q was a QoL buff because of the animation scaling with AS and the mini-slow, the AD buff/debuff was unchanged.
His W was a buff standing dps-wise but I personally consider it a nerf because Tenacity+%MS buff was a very strong combo to let him chase people/gtfo when he got caught in the enemy jungle, even in the early game (think about how Mundo used his W's Tenacity, 'cept Trundle didn't max W first).
His E was a buff because it interrupts channels now, however I'd rather call it a bug fix as it always displaced people, but for some reason it didn't stop channels contrary to every other displacement in the game.
His ult had its numbers nerfed (unless he ults somebody with little MR and a ridiculously high HP pool, which won't happen in the early/midgame anyway) but was buffed in an "oompf!" way since it ramps up faster and lasts longer (especially at max effect).
Where the heck did you see his passive changed or his Q losing the debuff or having its cooldown changed? You guys even linked the wiki, dafuk.
Ult damage was a buff at 2084 w/ max rank.
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On August 26 2013 06:36 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 06:29 IMoperator wrote:
Man Diana and Zac are some of the most disgusting examples of power creep i've seen in a game lol. Any of Riots reworks of unused characters are pretty clear examples of power creep. Things like trundle, who was always pretty decent, but overshadowed by others who came after him, he then gets reworked into a essentially superman version of himself.
Rather than going down the trundle rabit hole...
Compare akali to diana. Diana is basically akali 2.0,does exactly the same but better in almost every way.
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On August 26 2013 07:28 wei2coolman wrote:
The scary part is if Zac didn't have his respawn passive he'd still be a good as he is now, and would still be picked at the rate he is now.
That's a pretty bold thing to say. His passive is incredibly strong in team fights and makes him a terrible target despite being able to dish out so much damage. As it is now teams are letting other teams pick zac.
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On August 26 2013 07:22 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 07:20 Alaric wrote:
... so much bullshit.
Trundle's Q was a QoL buff because of the animation scaling with AS and the mini-slow, the AD buff/debuff was unchanged.
His W was a buff standing dps-wise but I personally consider it a nerf because Tenacity+%MS buff was a very strong combo to let him chase people/gtfo when he got caught in the enemy jungle, even in the early game (think about how Mundo used his W's Tenacity, 'cept Trundle didn't max W first).
His E was a buff because it interrupts channels now, however I'd rather call it a bug fix as it always displaced people, but for some reason it didn't stop channels contrary to every other displacement in the game.
His ult had its numbers nerfed (unless he ults somebody with little MR and a ridiculously high HP pool, which won't happen in the early/midgame anyway) but was buffed in an "oompf!" way since it ramps up faster and lasts longer (especially at max effect).
Where the heck did you see his passive changed or his Q losing the debuff or having its cooldown changed? You guys even linked the wiki, dafuk. His passive hits 6% at 15 instead of 16 and in general his passive ranked up a level sooner at a couple of the levels.
Welp, if that's true then shame on Riot, because it's not documented anywhere I looked.
Trundle had way smoother jungling when invading and counterjungling was a thing anyway, now he's better at fighting and ganking thanks to the slow, but the loss of Tenacity in exchange for improved healing isn't much for early counterjungling which was his thing.
He just got picked way more (and in the off lane) when the rework hit the servers because people realised how bonkers he is early on when you're foolish enough to try to stand your ground, and other people got wrecked because they didn't know about it.
Then some people learnt, others hit a wall while playing him, and he disappeared again.
It's not that he's weak, it's that his weird powercurve (you really want a bunch of CDR for his pillar and W and it also greatly increases his dps as with any champ who has a low cd aa-reset (see Nasus or Talon, dunno if I should quote Rengar since I don't have him and it's skewed with all the free AS he gets from his), but he's supposed to scale well off of farm because of his good base stats and the free stats/steroids his kit gives, however he's at peak during the midgame when bruisers' itemisation is the strongest and his Q debuff hits its peak in terms of % of enemies' AD) and lack of mobility makes him really awkward to fit into a comp, especially considering that the later basically puts him behind a metric ton of junglers currently (others who are picked despite that include stuff like Nasus, who's picked for reasons out of Trundle's reach).
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On August 26 2013 07:28 chinstrap wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 06:36 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 26 2013 06:29 IMoperator wrote:
Man Diana and Zac are some of the most disgusting examples of power creep i've seen in a game lol. Any of Riots reworks of unused characters are pretty clear examples of power creep. Things like trundle, who was always pretty decent, but overshadowed by others who came after him, he then gets reworked into a essentially superman version of himself. Rather than going down the trundle rabit hole... Compare akali to diana. Diana is basically akali 2.0,does exactly the same but better in almost every way.
I wouldn't call Diana better. Diana is tankier, but Akali has way more damage potential, and more jumps. Akali is pretty much full assassin.
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On August 26 2013 07:28 chinstrap wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 06:36 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 26 2013 06:29 IMoperator wrote:
Man Diana and Zac are some of the most disgusting examples of power creep i've seen in a game lol. Any of Riots reworks of unused characters are pretty clear examples of power creep. Things like trundle, who was always pretty decent, but overshadowed by others who came after him, he then gets reworked into a essentially superman version of himself. Rather than going down the trundle rabit hole... Compare akali to diana. Diana is basically akali 2.0,does exactly the same but better in almost every way.
Akali just sucks right now. But back when akali was balls broken, release diana was around that level.
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all arguments aside I'm pretty sure we can all agree new Trundle is not an example of power creep, or even in the vicinity of being mention-able in the conversation of power creep.
even the people who like new Trundle in the last few pages admit it is at a maximum a minor buff.
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On August 26 2013 07:37 Slusher wrote:
all arguments aside I'm pretty sure we can all agree new Trundle is not an example of power creep, or even in the vicinity of being mention-able in the conversation of power creep.
even the people who like new Trundle in the last few pages admit it is at a maximum a minor buff.
He's kind of a perfect example of it. because any of these other arguments are questionable because they are comparing two different champions. Trundle rework kept his playstyle and everything, just gave him a slight buff in everything about him except maybe the tenacity thing, but thats mostly questionable due to how invisible bonus healing/regen is as an effect. A general trend toward more and more powerful things is the definition of power creep. not to mention the rework happened because of general champion pool power creep as well.
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On August 26 2013 07:25 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 07:23 Gorsameth wrote:On August 26 2013 07:12 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 26 2013 07:11 cLutZ wrote:On August 26 2013 06:43 Amui wrote:
Zac I think is stupid simply because his kit is too good.
Can farm decently in 1v2 - check
Can initiate from ludicrous range - check
Has insane sustain, made even more ridiculous by SV - check
manaless - check
2, 3 are probably what I'd look at. Being able to force flashes from so far away with a non-ultimate level spell is just stupid. I'd also look at his passive being 3-3.5%. Makes him a lot more vulnerable in lane because he doesn't trend towards 100%, but rather 75-87.5% health. That would be a good step, but IMO it should be like Mundo's cleaver. You are punished pretty badly in HP for missing, and if you hit you only lose half the hp you would have. Make it 4% Current cost, 2% current regen. That way you are not rewarded for leaving 6 blobs (exaggeration) lying around then getting a huge HP spike. you realize that what you suggest would make it so zac has no sustain right? Yep, a champion having free sustain without cost is a problem. well it DOES have a cost. you get long term sustain at the price of short term health, positioning, and potential failure. I mean mundo has free sustain without cost as well. but that doesn't you know make him a problem. Zac is just more versatile than mundo is.
Mundo is a problem, in that he isn't really even niche right now, and that is because his health costs are actually real. That is the nuisance of ZAC, his health costs are fake, he is actually better off with his passive + HP costs than he would be if he had a Katarina or Zed cost system for his skills.
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On August 26 2013 07:40 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 07:37 Slusher wrote:
all arguments aside I'm pretty sure we can all agree new Trundle is not an example of power creep, or even in the vicinity of being mention-able in the conversation of power creep.
even the people who like new Trundle in the last few pages admit it is at a maximum a minor buff. He's kind of a perfect example of it. because any of these other arguments are questionable because they are comparing two different champions. Trundle rework kept his playstyle and everything, just gave him a slight buff in everything about him except maybe the tenacity thing, but thats mostly questionable due to how invisible bonus healing/regen is as an effect. A general trend toward more and more powerful things is the definition of power creep. not to mention the rework happened because of general champion pool power creep as well.
No, the rework happened because no one ever played him because he is boring to play.
It had nothing to do with strength. Even right before the rework he was the best pokecomp jungler in the game.
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On August 26 2013 07:28 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 07:20 Alaric wrote:
... so much bullshit.
Trundle's Q was a QoL buff because of the animation scaling with AS and the mini-slow, the AD buff/debuff was unchanged.
His W was a buff standing dps-wise but I personally consider it a nerf because Tenacity+%MS buff was a very strong combo to let him chase people/gtfo when he got caught in the enemy jungle, even in the early game (think about how Mundo used his W's Tenacity, 'cept Trundle didn't max W first).
His E was a buff because it interrupts channels now, however I'd rather call it a bug fix as it always displaced people, but for some reason it didn't stop channels contrary to every other displacement in the game.
His ult had its numbers nerfed (unless he ults somebody with little MR and a ridiculously high HP pool, which won't happen in the early/midgame anyway) but was buffed in an "oompf!" way since it ramps up faster and lasts longer (especially at max effect).
Where the heck did you see his passive changed or his Q losing the debuff or having its cooldown changed? You guys even linked the wiki, dafuk. Ult damage was a buff at 2084 w/ max rank.
I checked, and yeah, actually it may be more or less even or maybe a slight buff depending on targets. Basically needs 1100 HP at level 6 to beat it, and 1500 at level 11. No champ gets so much from his natural HP pool, but it should be within reach if they itemise early health, and since the s3 changes made it more accessible and cheaper anyway, these cases shouldn't be irrealistic (maybe not at the level 6/11 itself, but since pre-rework stayed at the same value until you could rank it again compared to the new one... ).
On August 26 2013 07:25 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 07:23 Gorsameth wrote:On August 26 2013 07:12 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 26 2013 07:11 cLutZ wrote:On August 26 2013 06:43 Amui wrote:
Zac I think is stupid simply because his kit is too good.
Can farm decently in 1v2 - check
Can initiate from ludicrous range - check
Has insane sustain, made even more ridiculous by SV - check
manaless - check
2, 3 are probably what I'd look at. Being able to force flashes from so far away with a non-ultimate level spell is just stupid. I'd also look at his passive being 3-3.5%. Makes him a lot more vulnerable in lane because he doesn't trend towards 100%, but rather 75-87.5% health. That would be a good step, but IMO it should be like Mundo's cleaver. You are punished pretty badly in HP for missing, and if you hit you only lose half the hp you would have. Make it 4% Current cost, 2% current regen. That way you are not rewarded for leaving 6 blobs (exaggeration) lying around then getting a huge HP spike. you realize that what you suggest would make it so zac has no sustain right? Yep, a champion having free sustain without cost is a problem. well it DOES have a cost. you get long term sustain at the price of short term health, positioning, and potential failure. I mean mundo has free sustain without cost as well. but that doesn't you know make him a problem. Zac is just more versatile than mundo is.
Mundo's passive is nowhere near enough to make up for his health costs, especially early, and his ult is... surprise, an ult, taking an ability slot and with its own cooldown that you've got to burn to sustain (it was admittedly a bit ridic' before the nerf when you could spam it super often with a bit of CDR and Mundo loving early kindlegem so much).
In fact Mundo has a pretty risky first clear because he tends to make himself low through his costs. Because of the nature of flat costs he tends to ignore them come late game (although long poke sessions with Cleaver spam have their toll if you don't hit them enough), but comparing his "sustain" to Zac pre-6, or even pre-11, is beyond bold.
Mundo doesn't rely on heals either, it's more that the damage he won't take by killing something faster through Q and E is greater than the health he pays to use these. Zac doesn't give a fuck, he'll just press any button because it's going to heal him anyway as long as he picks up the blob.
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On August 26 2013 07:40 PrinceXizor wrote: except maybe the tenacity thing, but thats mostly questionable due to how invisible bonus healing/regen is as an effect.
No.
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On August 26 2013 07:43 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 07:40 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 26 2013 07:37 Slusher wrote:
all arguments aside I'm pretty sure we can all agree new Trundle is not an example of power creep, or even in the vicinity of being mention-able in the conversation of power creep.
even the people who like new Trundle in the last few pages admit it is at a maximum a minor buff. He's kind of a perfect example of it. because any of these other arguments are questionable because they are comparing two different champions. Trundle rework kept his playstyle and everything, just gave him a slight buff in everything about him except maybe the tenacity thing, but thats mostly questionable due to how invisible bonus healing/regen is as an effect. A general trend toward more and more powerful things is the definition of power creep. not to mention the rework happened because of general champion pool power creep as well. No, the rework happened because no one ever played him because he is boring to play. It had nothing to do with strength. Even right before the rework he was the best pokecomp jungler in the game.
The only riot messages on the topic were about wanting to rework his story because they wanted him to be involved, and to improve him generally in terms of play. nothing about him being boring at all.
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On August 26 2013 07:46 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 07:40 PrinceXizor wrote: except maybe the tenacity thing, but thats mostly questionable due to how invisible bonus healing/regen is as an effect. No.
Px being px.
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EPT
