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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:29 IMoperator wrote: Man Diana and Zac are some of the most disgusting examples of power creep i've seen in a game lol. Any of Riots reworks of unused characters are pretty clear examples of power creep. Things like trundle, who was always pretty decent, but overshadowed by others who came after him, he then gets reworked into a essentially superman version of himself. | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
thresh is another good example though. he's like blitz but better in every way. Zed/Khazix vs. talon is pretty bad too. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
Can farm decently in 1v2 - check Can initiate from ludicrous range - check Has insane sustain, made even more ridiculous by SV - check manaless - check 2, 3 are probably what I'd look at. Being able to force flashes from so far away with a non-ultimate level spell is just stupid. I'd also look at his passive being 3-3.5%. Makes him a lot more vulnerable in lane because he doesn't trend towards 100%, but rather 75-87.5% health. | ||
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swim224
Botswana368 Posts
On August 26 2013 03:53 Kuja900 wrote: E is a much better max then Q imo, the root duration is really strong. You can't really liberally spam Q on a support's mana pool too. Most Zyra's take Q first too, does more for you at level 1. E first if invade of course. Why do you think taking Q first is better than E? I've found that being able to get a root + slow plant at level 2 allows you and your adc to get free autos because their adc can't get away. As for Q vs E max, I generally don't have mana issues if I max Q. As long as you stay at ~250 mana, you can still use your full combo without running oom. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:36 PrinceXizor wrote: Any of Riots reworks of unused characters are pretty clear examples of power creep. Things like trundle, who was always pretty decent, but overshadowed by others who came after him, he then gets reworked into a essentially superman version of himself. What are you talking about? Trundle is literally the worst possible example you could have used. They literally did not touch trundles kit at all... They made his ultimate weaker against super tanky opponents, and stronger in most situations, and then took his massive AD debuff away from his Q and gave him a miniscule slow instead. His kit, his numbers, his play-style all stayed exactly the same. He didn't even get any stronger. He was always this unduelable troll of a jungler that was great all early mid game and then fell off the face of the earth unless the comp was build around using his E as a disengage. That didn't change. All the Trundle rework did was try to make him a more appealing character to play, really. Thats it. | ||
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ExoFun
Netherlands2041 Posts
Everyone that want to read it and without the Reddit comment but a straight forward point of view of a respectable journalist.: http://www.cadred.org/News/Article/200298/ | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:47 iCanada wrote: What are you talking about? Trundle is literally the worst possible example you could have used. They literally did not touch trundles kit at all... They made his ultimate weaker against super tanky opponents, and stronger in most situations, and then took his massive AD debuff away from his Q and gave him a miniscule slow instead. His kit, his numbers, his play-style all stayed exactly the same. what are YOU talking about. just because i make a post doesn't give you the right to object to it without thinking or knowing anything about what you are saying. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Trundle | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:52 PrinceXizor wrote: what are YOU talking about. just because i make a post doesn't give you the right to object to it without thinking or knowing anything about what you are saying. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Trundle They literally barely changed Trundle at all. EDIT: I forgot about changing his W from giving him tenacity to healing, but honestly if anything that is a nerf lategame. His Q change is a nerf in 1v1's too. Me telling you Trundle was a bad example was literally just that, because it was a bad example of power creep. They just refreshed things and made it seem more nooby friendly. And still no one plays him becasuse he is boring. Trundle had been super super strong for a long long time. And hell, most of the super OP's in LoL usually end up being legacy champs that fell out of favour in the current metagame. For example, Nasus was batshit broken at the start of S3 despite literally never being played at all for like the entirety of S1 and S2. Wither just wrecked AD carries, completely. Since then he has been nerfed into the ground. Same with a champion like TF, Nunu, anivia, Singed, Karthus, Ryze. Only really thing that has "creeped" is Mobility. | ||
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Kitkatzy
United States213 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:45 swim224 wrote: Why do you think taking Q first is better than E? I've found that being able to get a root + slow plant at level 2 allows you and your adc to get free autos because their adc can't get away. As for Q vs E max, I generally don't have mana issues if I max Q. As long as you stay at ~250 mana, you can still use your full combo without running oom. Starting Q gives you a strong lvl 1 and 2. Q is extremely easy to hit compared to e, and it is does more damage + shorter cd + ranged plant. You can often push an adc out of lane with Q and then set up the lvl 3 kill when they return/overstay. | ||
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swim224
Botswana368 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:59 Couvre wrote: Starting Q gives you a strong lvl 1 and 2. Q is extremely easy to hit compared to e, and it is does more damage + shorter cd + ranged plant. You can often push an adc out of lane with Q and then set up the lvl 3 kill when they return/overstay. Ok, I'll try it tonight in some inhouses to see the difference myself. I'll report back with the results  | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:56 iCanada wrote: They literally barely changed Trundle at all. EDIT: I forgot about changing his W from giving him tenacity to healing, but honestly if anything that is a nerf lategame. His Q change is a nerf in 1v1's too. his Q change? you mean the 1 second reduction on the cooldown, the animation fix that prevented it from hindering your dps, and the added slow? he reduces practically the same amount of ad (5 less at max level). the net buff on his Passive and his pillar, and the net buff on his ultimate. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:56 iCanada wrote: They literally barely changed Trundle at all. EDIT: I forgot about changing his W from giving him tenacity to healing, but honestly if anything that is a nerf lategame. His Q change is a nerf in 1v1's too. the change to his W is most certainly a nerf because the old one stacked with mercs. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:43 Amui wrote: Zac I think is stupid simply because his kit is too good. Can farm decently in 1v2 - check Can initiate from ludicrous range - check Has insane sustain, made even more ridiculous by SV - check manaless - check 2, 3 are probably what I'd look at. Being able to force flashes from so far away with a non-ultimate level spell is just stupid. I'd also look at his passive being 3-3.5%. Makes him a lot more vulnerable in lane because he doesn't trend towards 100%, but rather 75-87.5% health. That would be a good step, but IMO it should be like Mundo's cleaver. You are punished pretty badly in HP for missing, and if you hit you only lose half the hp you would have. Make it 4% Current cost, 2% current regen. That way you are not rewarded for leaving 6 blobs (exaggeration) lying around then getting a huge HP spike. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 26 2013 07:11 cLutZ wrote: That would be a good step, but IMO it should be like Mundo's cleaver. You are punished pretty badly in HP for missing, and if you hit you only lose half the hp you would have. Make it 4% Current cost, 2% current regen. That way you are not rewarded for leaving 6 blobs (exaggeration) lying around then getting a huge HP spike. you realize that what you suggest would make it so zac has no sustain right? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:52 PrinceXizor wrote: what are YOU talking about. just because i make a post doesn't give you the right to object to it without thinking or knowing anything about what you are saying. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Trundle Passive went unchanged. Q- has a slight improvement in early scaling for less base damage, negligible slow, and animation QoL change. W- Increased AS in later ranks and healing amp while losing Tenacity E- Interrupt QoL change with duration nerf. R- Increased ult damage/drain, faster/higher early resist drain, and longer duration in exchange for less late game resist steal. It's a lot of the changes come with tradeoffs in exchange for QoL fixes that didn't require a rework. I think it's a net positive, but when you take all the changes into account, not by much. On August 26 2013 06:56 iCanada wrote: They literally barely changed Trundle at all. EDIT: I forgot about changing his W from giving him tenacity to healing, but honestly if anything that is a nerf lategame. His Q change is a nerf in 1v1's too. Me telling you Trundle was a bad example was literally just that, because it was a bad example of power creep. They just refreshed things and made it seem more nooby friendly. And still no one plays him becasuse he is boring. Trundle had been super super strong for a long long time. And hell, most of the super OP's in LoL usually end up being legacy champs that fell out of favour in the current metagame. For example, Nasus was batshit broken at the start of S3 despite literally never being played at all for like the entirety of S1 and S2. Wither just wrecked AD carries, completely. Since then he has been nerfed into the ground. Same with a champion like TF, Nunu, anivia, Singed, Karthus, Ryze. Only really thing that has "creeped" is Mobility. Nasus is also a bad example. He was batshit broken because in addition to what he already had, Riot forced him into relevance. V3.02: Siphoning Strike Fixed a bug where Siphoning Strike critical strikes were dealing more damage than intended. Mana cost reduced to 20 at all ranks from 20/25/30/35/40. Fury of the Sands Now increases attack range by 50 and cast range by 100 while active. Mana cost reduced to 100 from 150. V3.01: Siphoning Strike: Permanent damage bonus is now doubled to 6 when killing a champion, large minion or large monster | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
edit:and it seems the 2 day ban didn't change anything. Heyoka plz. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 26 2013 07:12 PrinceXizor wrote: you realize that what you suggest would make it so zac has no sustain right? Exactly. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Trundle's Q was a QoL buff because of the animation scaling with AS and the mini-slow, the AD buff/debuff was unchanged. His W was a buff standing dps-wise but I personally consider it a nerf because Tenacity+%MS buff was a very strong combo to let him chase people/gtfo when he got caught in the enemy jungle, even in the early game (think about how Mundo used his W's Tenacity, 'cept Trundle didn't max W first). His E was a buff because it interrupts channels now, however I'd rather call it a bug fix as it always displaced people, but for some reason it didn't stop channels contrary to every other displacement in the game. His ult had its numbers nerfed (unless he ults somebody with little MR and a ridiculously high HP pool, which won't happen in the early/midgame anyway) but was buffed in an "oompf!" way since it ramps up faster and lasts longer (especially at max effect). Where the heck did you see his passive changed or his Q losing the debuff or having its cooldown changed? You guys even linked the wiki, dafuk. | ||
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