EPT[Season 3] Postseason Discussion - Page 3
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WilDMousE
Chile1335 Posts
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
 I wouldn't even care about this if there were more cross-regional tournaments but there aren't. Too bad logistics hampers the creation of an pan-Asian LoL tournament because what I really want to see are the best Chinese and Korean teams going at it. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
Cons of 16 man: +1 KR, +1 CN?! (How to rig the brackets so some West team makes it.) | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On July 12 2013 12:22 Slow Motion wrote: Aren't PE and OMG more likely to make Worlds for China than WE or IG? It's kinda funny that WE and IG won't be at Worlds when you look at the NA and EU teams that will be there I wouldn't even care about this if there were more cross-regional tournaments but there aren't. Too bad logistics hampers the creation of an pan-Asian LoL tournament because what I really want to see are the best Chinese and Korean teams going at it. I think WE or iG are more likely to go to worlds than PE personally. OMG should definitely go though. It's still too early to tell, all four teams are strong. Part of me secretly hopes to see Wh1t3z and Tabe return to western audiences even if Royal Club's shots are pretty slim. | ||
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abcb
United States136 Posts
I do have to say though, EU + NA = 6, China + Korea + Southeast asia = 7. How is this event EU/NA heavy? If you want a format of 16 teams such as EU/NA/China/Korea/Southeast asia each gets 3 teams, then Asia region would field total of 9 teams vs. 6, at which point it may be better to just host an all-asian final instead. If the whole point of world championship is to have different regions play each other, then having 9/16 teams or 10/16 teams (if AU advances) will lessen that purpose. From what i can recall, top seed, from US, EU, KOR, and China gets a bye, the remaining 10 teams play group stage where 2 teams from each team will advance, then it's 8 team regular format. This pretty much guarantees that in each group of 5 teams in the group stage, no 2 teams will be from the same region. The break down can be (US #2, EU#3, CN#2, KOR #2, SEA#1) and (US#3, EU#2, SEA#2, KO#3, Wildcard). Not sure why this is so complicated for viewers to follow. Finally, if we do expand the teams to 16, and allow 4 groups of 4, there is a chance that we may see all asian teams in the quarterfinals. Where the current format guarantees at least 1 NA and 1 EU team in the quarter finals. On July 12 2013 11:41 Amarok wrote: That analogy doesn't really apply here. Discrepancies in the expenditure of sporting clubs don't de-legitimize a sport, but they do often make matches less entertaining. Many major sporting leagues have strictly regulated salary caps that attempt to keep competition even and exciting. Really that's the biggest problem with such a EU/NA heavy competition. The quality of games will be lower, making the spectacle less entertaining. Not to mention a 14 team tournament is terrible. The format will need to be complicated and difficult for the viewer to follow. That's the last thing a tournament needs. Anyone who follows cricket will know what a disaster some of their world cup formats have been. 16 teams, 4 groups of 4, Quarters, Semis, Final. Simple. You also get two extra extremely high quality teams added for viewing, improving the overall experience. Seems a no brainer to me. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2013 12:33 overt wrote: I think WE or iG are more likely to go to worlds than PE personally. OMG should definitely go though. It's still too early to tell, all four teams are strong. Part of me secretly hopes to see Wh1t3z and Tabe return to western audiences even if Royal Club's shots are pretty slim. I'd say WE, PE, iG, and Royal all have similar chances of going to Worlds. As of right now they're taking games off each other at similar rates. | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 12 2013 04:48 TheYango wrote: Continuing on the discussion about # of slots, the biggest quip I have isn't necessarily that Korea and CN have less slots, but that in order to give them less slots, Riot deliberately chose a less sensible number of teams to have in the tournament. WTF is a 14 team tournament? A 16 team tournament is easier to create a format for AND would give an additional slot to KR/CN. 16 teams, groupstage with 4 groups of 4, put the top qualifier from NA/KR/CN/SEA in separate groups, then either top 2 advance to single elim Ro8 OR put top 2 in WB, bottom 2 in LB for double elim bracket. Took me less than 2 minutes to create a more sensible tournament format. How are you always so right? @Letmelose, I see where you're coming from, you are clearly passionate about eSports and Riot isn't living up to those expectations. You'll certainly not see me praising the system. For example, 14 teams is hella dumb. I suppose the discussion about what can be improved is worth having, but I don't think we should let it ruin the Season 3 finals for ourselves as fans. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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abcb
United States136 Posts
On July 12 2013 12:58 sylverfyre wrote: What Yango said. 14 makes no fucking sense. 16 makes a standard tournament. Why aren't they giving CN and KR a third slot each? As I explained above, giving KR and CN and extra slot probably = all asian teams in round of 8, where the current format places for sure atleast 1 US and 1 EU team in round of 8. Seeing how EU and US has tons of audiences, it makes sense to have atleast 1 team from those 2 regions to be in round of 8. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On July 12 2013 12:39 abcb wrote: I was not arguing whether or not the current format made sense or that it would've been less entertaining than a 16 team format. I was simply stating that unfairness in professional sports are everywhere, and they do not de-legitimize the sports itself. I was merely comparing the fairness of baseball to fairness of letting Riot determining # of teams selected from each region. Who's saying LoL is de-legitimatized as an esport? It's a great competitive game with a huge following. It doesn't need to prove itself to anyone. But this is a shitty format for the pinnacle of the competition and should be called out as such. On July 12 2013 12:39 abcb wrote:I do have to say though, EU + NA = 6, China + Korea + Southeast asia = 7. How is this event EU/NA heavy? If you want a format of 16 teams such as EU/NA/China/Korea/Southeast asia each gets 3 teams, then Asia region would field total of 9 teams vs. 6, at which point it may be better to just host an all-asian final instead. If the whole point of world championship is to have different regions play each other, then having 9/16 teams or 10/16 teams (if AU advances) will lessen that purpose. EU and NA get an extra slot over all other regions. The All Star slot isn't a "Korean" slot and you know it. Stop deliberately misrepresenting the facts. I didn't suggest 3 extra slots. I suggested an extra slot for the two highest performing regions in the world. Is the soccer world cup blighted by the fact that later stages are generally dominated by European and South American teams? Of course not, having better teams progress makes for a more interesting tournament. Lastly since when is Australia in Asia? On July 12 2013 12:39 abcb wrote: From what i can recall, top seed, from US, EU, KOR, and China gets a bye, the remaining 10 teams play group stage where 2 teams from each team will advance, then it's 8 team regular format. This pretty much guarantees that in each group of 5 teams in the group stage, no 2 teams will be from the same region. The break down can be (US #2, EU#3, CN#2, KOR #2, SEA#1) and (US#3, EU#2, SEA#2, KO#3, Wildcard). Not sure why this is so complicated for viewers to follow. That it's needlessly complicated is the problem. Not to mention the best teams play fewer games, again lowering the quality of the matches. On July 12 2013 12:39 abcb wrote:Finally, if we do expand the teams to 16, and allow 4 groups of 4, there is a chance that we may see all asian teams in the quarterfinals. Where the current format guarantees at least 1 NA and 1 EU team in the quarter finals. This is the real reason they're doing it and it stinks. Giving a free ride to teams that don't deserve it is a stupid and corrupt way to run a professional competitive event with a global reach. Furthermore I think it highlights a lack of understanding in what makes people connect with competitive video games in the first place. Yeah there are team fanboys, but fundamentally people watch video games because they enjoy watching a game they love playing being played at the highest level. It's not like other sports where you have nationalistic/tribal responses accelerating the competitive instinct. Even if you make the assumption that an EG/TSM doing well is good for viewer numbers, having them bow out in the quarter finals is only marginally better than having them bow out of the group stage. It's certainly not going to be worth the accusations of favoritism that will come about as a result of this format. | ||
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abcb
United States136 Posts
I dunno, maybe my view is just way different regarding the teams distribution. From my point of view, there is ASIA and there is rest of the world. The team breakdown makes sense to me because EU/US gets 6, Asia gets 6 + 1 all star. That to me is perfectly fair and even. Your suggestion of 1 extra slot for the highest performing regions would essentially make it that Asia field 9 teams. It doesn't matter that 1 of the slot came from the all stars, the end result is you have an overwhelming # of asian teams vs the rest of the world. I guess we also view the games different. Personally I watch all stars to cheer on the region I want to win. For me it was CN and KR. If they all got knocked out early, then I lose interest. I mean what's the point of watching the game if you aren't passionate about the team who is playing it? For me, it's totally the emotional drama that comes with the competition, the up and downs of my favorite team, the roster changes, the free agency, the poaching of players, the rivalry that makes me want to watching the game. For pure mechanical skill play, there are plenty of diamond and challenge level solo queue stream everyday for that. Last but not the least, professional sports are full of free rides. World Cup host country automatic gets a bye so they don't have to play group stage. Initial NBA playoff always place the Rank #1 to play Rank #8, this is essentially giving them free rides since they get to play the statically weakest team. It also leads to more blowout of 3-0 vs. if the #1 team play against #2 team where the series might actually be decided by a game 5. I fail to see giving US and EU an extra slot is any different than what other professional sports are doing. On July 12 2013 13:12 Amarok wrote: Who's saying LoL is de-legitimatized as an esport? It's a great competitive game with a huge following. It doesn't need to prove itself to anyone. But this is a shitty format for the pinnacle of the competition and should be called out as such. EU and NA get an extra slot over all other regions. The All Star slot isn't a "Korean" slot and you know it. Stop deliberately misrepresenting the facts. I didn't suggest 3 extra slots. I suggested an extra slot for the two highest performing regions in the world. Is the soccer world cup blighted by the fact that later stages are generally dominated by European and South American teams? Of course not, having better teams progress makes for a more interesting tournament. Lastly since when is Australia in Asia? That it's needlessly complicated is the problem. Not to mention the best teams play fewer games, again lowering the quality of the matches. This is the real reason they're doing it and it stinks. Giving a free ride to teams that don't deserve it is a stupid and corrupt way to run a professional competitive event with a global reach. Furthermore I think it highlights a lack of understanding in what makes people connect with competitive video games in the first place. Yeah there are team fanboys, but fundamentally people watch video games because they enjoy watching a game they love playing being played at the highest level. It's not like other sports where you have nationalistic/tribal responses accelerating the competitive instinct. Even if you make the assumption that an EG/TSM doing well is good for viewer numbers, having them bow out in the quarter finals is only marginally better than having them bow out of the group stage. It's certainly not going to be worth the accusations of favoritism that will come about as a result of this format. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
5 Africa, 13 Europe, 3 North America, 4 South America, 4 Asia. 1 Goes to a playoff of SA/NA and 1 to a Asia/Oceania Playoff. Plus always the host country. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On July 12 2013 13:34 abcb wrote: Last but not the least, professional sports are full of free rides. World Cup host country automatic gets a bye so they don't have to play group stage. Initial NBA playoff always place the Rank #1 to play Rank #8, this is essentially giving them free rides since they get to play the statically weakest team. It also leads to more blowout of 3-0 vs. if the #1 team play against #2 team where the series might actually be decided by a game 5. I fail to see giving US and EU an extra slot is any different than what other professional sports are doing. The World Cup host country getting an automatic slot isn't really analogous here as no LoL team is getting a free ride.That event is a real world sporting example that you can draw parallels from though. It's a global sporting event with a lengthy qualifying process and sure enough the strongest region dominates the qualification slots. 13 slots are given to Europe (nearly half the total), and while you might argue Asia deserves fewer slots and South America more it's clear that the overall strength of the qualification regions is the main reason for the allocation. The NBA analogy is just silly. Of course #1 plays #8. Playing the weakest team in the playoffs is the reward for finishing the regular season as the most consistently strong team. That's what a good competitive tournament structure does, rewards the best performing teams, a good example of structures set up to ensure teams don't get free rides. I have pretty fundamental disagreements with the rest of your post, but I've outlined those points and won't belabor them. | ||
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
More importantly: Europe gets 13 world cup spots? Man that's crazy. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
On July 12 2013 13:42 cLutZ wrote: Just as an FYI b/c somone referenced it: World Cup is: 5 Africa, 13 Europe, 3 North America, 4 South America, 4 Asia. 1 Goes to a playoff of SA/NA and 1 to a Asia/Oceania Playoff. Plus always the host country. And why is that? Skill level. Of course it's not PURELY skill level, it's a world cup after all, but the weaker regions are less represented...host country excluded. If you give NA 1 extra spot for hosting that's cool but yeah... | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On July 12 2013 14:00 bittman wrote: More importantly: Europe gets 13 world cup spots? Man that's crazy. Why is it crazy? The strongest teams come primarily from this region. The quality of the competition would be much lower if it was a more even distribution. | ||
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niukasu1990
1007 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:41 abcb wrote: Riot may not wanted to screw over the taiwan region but the decision may not be up to Riot but up to Tencent. As you know, Riot was bought out by Tencent for 400+ mill, Tencent is a chinese MAINLAND corporation that have many dealing with the PRC government (virtually all of Tencent operations/company require PRC government regulatory approval). For example, twitter is banned in china, but Tencent's own version of twitter/fb is allowed because they follow government's censorship requirements and gotten approval for it. Taiwan is a very sensitive touchy subject in mainland china. Chinese people are generally pretty upset about claims to regions that they believe that's theirs, and they will backlash against nations that also claims that land. For example, the giant backlash against japanese car makers because Japan and China was fighting over an island in the eastern china sea. It is very possible that Tencent/Riot purposely lower taiwan's entry/standing publically to show that they value Mainland China > taiwan so that there won't be any potential backlash against them. You are thinking too much | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
SA and Africa "region" gets 0 slots compared to EU/NA/Asia "region"? What is this?! Or we can arrange it by population then. Then China gets 4 slots, US get 1 slots. Perfectly fair to me. + Show Spoiler + And that's still one too many for US gameplay wise. Trying to justfiy the slots is either 1) You understand why Riot wants EU/NA to make it further in 2) Dumb rationalizations. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2013 14:39 cascades wrote: 1) You understand why Riot wants EU/NA to make it further in And I don't agree with it. Let's be clear about this, the viewership in China absolutely dwarfs Western viewership AND Chinese viewers are more fickle than viewers from other countries. WE failing to make it to Worlds (very possible) will probably result in the largest possible viewership hit of any team not making it to Worlds. In fact, I would venture that a no-WE Worlds would potentially result in a larger loss of viewership than a no-NA/EU Ro8. | ||
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