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On July 12 2013 05:14 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 05:09 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 05:06 SHr3DD3r wrote:
Another classic Riot blunder with regard to the format. The spot distribution is stupid as well. Last year it was understandable to some degree. But again? You rather have arbitrary spot allocation based on how Riot feels about which region is better? lol; seriously people. You want them to hold qualifiers for these spots? Oh wait; that'd end up being the tournament. It is already arbitrary. Plus, we should place Riot's decision on a higher plane of judgement, since they are directly influencing the only major cross-regional compeititon. How can anybody tell me with a straight face that Riot's decisions coming into this tournament was impeccable? Shouldn't we discuss these things in detail so that it doesn't happen again next time round?
It's not arbitrary; its based on market representation
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Baa?21247 Posts
In the end, it's business. That's all there is to it.
You guys forget that ESPORTS, from OGN back in the day to Season 3 today, is primarily an ENTERTAINMENT industry, not some competitive organization like the Olympics.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2013 05:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
In the end, it's business. That's all there is to it.
You guys forget that ESPORTS, from OGN back in the day to Season 3 today, is primarily an ENTERTAINMENT industry, not some competitive organization like the Olympics.
I don't see the business sense in a format that favors NA/EUW though.
CIS and CN are the place where LoL is least entrenched and has the most competition. Those are the areas where Riot stands to gain the most in currying favor.
Let's also keep in mind that CN and CIS are probably where the viewership is most fickle. If GG or WE managed to not qualify for Worlds (unlikely for GG but a very real possibility for WE), you'd probably see a bigger viewership hit than for any other individual team to not make it into the tournament.
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On July 12 2013 05:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
In the end, it's business. That's all there is to it.
You guys forget that ESPORTS, from OGN back in the day to Season 3 today, is primarily an ENTERTAINMENT industry, not some competitive organization like the Olympics.
The Olympics is also an entertainment industry, which is why there is always a great deal of discussion when it comes to getting players from professional leagues in popular sports like hockey and basketball. The Olympics try to sell it as "Playing for your country" when in reality they're raking in the dollars while these guys get paid peanuts compared to their wages as a professional.
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On July 12 2013 05:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
In the end, it's business. That's all there is to it.
You guys forget that ESPORTS, from OGN back in the day to Season 3 today, is primarily an ENTERTAINMENT industry, not some competitive organization like the Olympics.
I hated it when Ongament fluctuated the participant numbers for the StarLeague based on whether Boxer qualified or not. I hated it when MBCGame fixed the maps just in favour of certain players just to achieve higher ratings when Warcraft 3 was having trouble taking off. I hate it now that Season 3 World Championship is ignoring Taipei Assassins' good showings in the previous season, and then forced them to play with players from the South East Asian regions in the All Stars Championship. It shouldn't be all about the viewership, even if it is business. There needs to be an illusion that what we're seeing is legitimate, and I'm not being tricked in the slightest. All of us can see that the only world-wide tournament is being milked mainly for marketability reasons, and it bothers me how many people seem to be fine with that.
Shouldn't we strive for the professional gaming scene to be even more respectable than the Olympics? Why are we defining ourselves to be an entertainment industry? Who is going to respect the competitive integrity of the professional gaming scene if even the most loyal fans are okay with everything being a sham?
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Because at the end of the day, entertainment=money and that has a large influence on RIOT i believe. Sure, they love the game, they love eSports, but it's still highly fixated around the money you make.
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Wow, they got the Staples Center for the finals. Literally huge.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On July 12 2013 04:37 NeoIllusions wrote:Best I can offer is maybe a ticket. :O
A flying ticket that is
hue hue hue.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On July 12 2013 04:48 TheYango wrote:
Continuing on the discussion about # of slots, the biggest quip I have isn't necessarily that Korea and CN have less slots, but that in order to give them less slots, Riot deliberately chose a less sensible number of teams to have in the tournament. WTF is a 14 team tournament?
A 16 team tournament is easier to create a format for AND would give an additional slot to KR/CN.
16 teams, groupstage with 4 groups of 4, put the top qualifier from NA/KR/CN/SEA in separate groups, then either top 2 advance to single elim Ro8 OR put top 2 in WB, bottom 2 in LB for double elim bracket.
Took me less than 2 minutes to create a more sensible tournament format.
Going off of this, even if they still wanted to give the #1 team from KR/CN/NA/SEA a bye to the quarterfinal, they could still split the remaining 12 teams in several ways
two groups of 6, top 2 from each group advances
four groups of 3, top 1 from each group advances
two groups of 6, top 4 from each group advances; these 8 teams play each other in a bo3 in a pre-quarterfinal (1st vs 4th, 2nd vs 3rd), and 4 teams advances from that to face the 4 seeds in the real quarterfinal
yeah 16 teams would've been much better, hope everything isn't set in stone and that this can still happen
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United States23455 Posts
I know the extra Europe and NA teams are because of business and money, but still makes me laugh. I guess it's more canon fodder for the three Korean teams.
Also, I guessed Staples Center a few months back as the finals place. As an LA resident, it should be awesome. 18,000 fans would be a really awesome sight.
It is kinda silly that Europe will have three teams, but due to their failure at ASG, they will all be in the group stages. Really feel like China with WE/iG/OMG could have needed that third spot.
Hopefully, they give Korea three spots next year if it is being held in Korea. Should be a bonus for host region.
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Is there a date yet? I'm not sure if I'll be in school again by the time this starts, so I can't buy tickets yet.
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I think I can go again. I hope ^_^
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On July 12 2013 08:59 RagequitBM wrote:
Is there a date yet? I'm not sure if I'll be in school again by the time this starts, so I can't buy tickets yet.
Oct 4th is the finals.
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Riot may not wanted to screw over the taiwan region but the decision may not be up to Riot but up to Tencent.
As you know, Riot was bought out by Tencent for 400+ mill, Tencent is a chinese MAINLAND corporation that have many dealing with the PRC government (virtually all of Tencent operations/company require PRC government regulatory approval). For example, twitter is banned in china, but Tencent's own version of twitter/fb is allowed because they follow government's censorship requirements and gotten approval for it.
Taiwan is a very sensitive touchy subject in mainland china. Chinese people are generally pretty upset about claims to regions that they believe that's theirs, and they will backlash against nations that also claims that land. For example, the giant backlash against japanese car makers because Japan and China was fighting over an island in the eastern china sea. It is very possible that Tencent/Riot purposely lower taiwan's entry/standing publically to show that they value Mainland China > taiwan so that there won't be any potential backlash against them.
On July 12 2013 05:05 Letmelose wrote:
I will reply stuff from the general discussions thread here.
1) My response to onlywonderboy's post:
The essence of my premise is still somewhat valid, I feel. Are you watching a global competition for the chance to see the best from the world (well, you can see in week-in-week-out during Champions League these days, but in the past, the World Cup was the only chance to see the best players from all over the world), or are you just in it to see how far your home team can make it? Whenever I see watch the World Cup, there's a clear divide between the fans, those that tune in for the joy of supporting Korea for a big occasion such as the World Cup, and those who watch it for what it is. The numbers will obviously be overwhelmingly in favour of those casual fans who watch to beat their drum, but we need to be very cautious to how much we cater towards those fans before the competition becomes more of a show.
Sorry to be so pessemistic, but I can't seem to criticize Riot in a orderly manner. I feel like there needs to be the illusion that what we're seeing is legitimate, even if it is not. So what's fair? For one thing, I feel how Riot has dealt with the spot allocations for Taiwan is unfair. I don't think how the tournament has been structured is fair, and is way too bracket dependent for the only competition that has all regions participating in it. Even the regional qualifications is structured better than the main tournament itself in some cases, which is just ridiculous. The storyline, the hype, and the views for the actual tournament is going to be great regardless of what Riot does because of the paucity in cross-regional competitions. However, Riot is focusing too much on things being a good show, rather trying to ghost a legitimate global competition. Seriously, can you tell me with a straight face that the brackets, the seedings, and the qualifications are of the same calibre (in terms of competitive integrity, not production value) as some of the regional competitions?
2) My response to thenexusp's post:
It's a multitude of things, and they have irked me for a while, as my post history probably shows. It's going to take forever to explain if my recent series of posts does not make any sense to you.
3) My response to jpak's post:
Don't get me wrong, I'll still be watching every single moment I can watch of the Season 3 World Championship, but I feel there's a lot of issues that needs to be touched upon.
4) My response to NeoIllusions:
I was always empathetic towards the Taiwanese region in my posts, even back when I was bitching about "competitive integrity" way back when the decisions for All Stars Championship. People seem to not catch on that vibe, especially with my usual biases being towards Korea, naturally. Korea has benefited immensely due to the general interest from the English speaking world, and the success the team had in All Stars Championship. However, the Taiwanese region has been screwed over by Riot, and that is the injustice, that I feel is upsetting me the most. Taiwanese teams have never gotten a chance. The sole representative of their region, Taipei Assassins could not have performed any better in Season 2 World Championship. Surely that must count for more than some random event in China?
5) My response to Dan HH:
I'm not sure whether restructuring the tournament to be double-elimination would solve everything, but surely it cannot be denied that the way the brackets are structured makes way for really random results? I think even some of the smaller scale competitions held in various regions are designed better than Season 3 World Championship. And that is a disgrace when you consider the paucity in cross-regional competitions.
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That's the nature of the business though. In order to fund the event, the game, the players, the teams, they need to attract advertising, sponsorships, and new players. You can have the most professional league, but if there are no viewers, then that game will simply fade away or become super niche.
The same thing happens in NBA too, I mean lakers sellout for a reason, the clippers... not so much, people pay what they want to see, and owners/associations recognizes that and actively try to sign free agent that can 1) win (attract more viewership) or 2) have very strong following so more people will buy season ticket or watch it on tv. Take Jermey Lin for example, he is a GOOD player, but he ain't no Kobe/Jordan/Labron. His current contract is 3 years for 25 mill. Is he worth that much purely on his skill alone? Many would say no way, but business wise, it makes complete sense. He has a huge asian following in the US, huge following in ASIA, huge market for his merchandise. Houston will probably make back way more than they signed him for on tv broadcast rights and merchandise alone. Is NBA less legitimate because players are sometime signed for financial reasons vs talent?
Another good example of unfairness in professional sports is baseball payroll. Is baseball less legitimate as a sport because yankee are allowed to spend 10x on payroll vs. the Astros? Is baseball less respected as a sport because of the payroll gap?
On July 12 2013 05:31 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 05:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
In the end, it's business. That's all there is to it.
You guys forget that ESPORTS, from OGN back in the day to Season 3 today, is primarily an ENTERTAINMENT industry, not some competitive organization like the Olympics. I hated it when Ongament fluctuated the participant numbers for the StarLeague based on whether Boxer qualified or not. I hated it when MBCGame fixed the maps just in favour of certain players just to achieve higher ratings when Warcraft 3 was having trouble taking off. I hate it now that Season 3 World Championship is ignoring Taipei Assassins' good showings in the previous season, and then forced them to play with players from the South East Asian regions in the All Stars Championship. It shouldn't be all about the viewership, even if it is business. There needs to be an illusion that what we're seeing is legitimate, and I'm not being tricked in the slightest. All of us can see that the only world-wide tournament is being milked mainly for marketability reasons, and it bothers me how many people seem to be fine with that. Shouldn't we strive for the professional gaming scene to be even more respectable than the Olympics? Why are we defining ourselves to be an entertainment industry? Who is going to respect the competitive integrity of the professional gaming scene if even the most loyal fans are okay with everything being a sham?
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I hope I can get 2 tickets, I missed out on tickets for the dota championships  .
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On July 12 2013 10:00 abcb wrote:
Another good example of unfairness in professional sports is baseball payroll. Is baseball less legitimate as a sport because yankee are allowed to spend 10x on payroll vs. the Astros? Is baseball less respected as a sport because of the payroll gap?
That analogy doesn't really apply here. Discrepancies in the expenditure of sporting clubs don't de-legitimize a sport, but they do often make matches less entertaining. Many major sporting leagues have strictly regulated salary caps that attempt to keep competition even and exciting. Really that's the biggest problem with such a EU/NA heavy competition. The quality of games will be lower, making the spectacle less entertaining.
Not to mention a 14 team tournament is terrible. The format will need to be complicated and difficult for the viewer to follow. That's the last thing a tournament needs. Anyone who follows cricket will know what a disaster some of their world cup formats have been.
16 teams, 4 groups of 4, Quarters, Semis, Final. Simple. You also get two extra extremely high quality teams added for viewing, improving the overall experience. Seems a no brainer to me.
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On July 12 2013 10:09 BlueBird. wrote:I hope I can get 2 tickets, I missed out on tickets for the dota championships .
Most of it going on at a college arena, then the finals at the fucking home of the Lakers. Unreal amount of tickets. Should be pretty easy.
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EPT
