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On July 25 2013 02:25 Slayer91 wrote:
shen jungle clears too slowly
anyone can countergank but he can only do it once every so often anyway
what happens if your lanes are losing without ganks?
There is no one who counterganks like Shen. Closest you could get is Pantheon. Otherwise you need to rely on gamesense and wards to countergank eg. being better than your enemy.
And I don't think his normal ganks would be unpassable. His E is a gap closer and a hard CC for a decent amount of time. True they are pretty bad pre 6. His E barely closes more distance than say Udyr's bear form and 25 less than Xin. Then he has his passive and max Q for some damage.
On July 25 2013 02:26 nafta wrote:
Also a shen without farm is kinda useless.
Not really. A Jax without farm is useless because he scales off autos and lots of things cause autos to scale. Same with a yi.
Fewer things scale with defences eg. armor and hp so your scaling doesn't accelerate as fast.
Shen's not a great splitpusher because he's able to duel people, but rather because of his ult. He can't duel shit unless he has like 50% more gold than say Jax, but Jax can't kill him either before Shen taunts away or Shen's allies arrive.
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i wouldn't underestimate shens reliance on gold. Shen is actaully a really strong duelist with just sunfire and tank items. an underfed shen can be stopped split pushing by killinghim, farmed shen cant be killed because he can escape much better
shens ganks arent great because he has no cc excpet taunt, xin can e and still have a knockup, udyr can bear and then stun.
shens counterganks are just "he can ult X" its not that unpredictable
besides he can do that from top lane anyway
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Before the buff -> buff clear path trend, I counter jungled stole red against a jungle shen as jungle amumu, that's how slow shen clears.
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shen jungle is fine, but it's better these days to put him top and get an aggressive (either for ganking or control) jungler like lee sin, elise, or nunu. the reasons can be discussed and argued forever but the basic idea is that active control of the game is better than reactive, and although shen ganks are fine his jungle and map control are godawful
also a splitpusher who can win duels is worth a lot more to the team than one that has to run away. even against a global like shen, the other team can just send a stronger champion with cc to counterpush and force shen to be very very careful about where he ults from, which greatly hurts his ability to stop the push
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I remember someone did a study when the new jungle was made (buff to the important monsters and nerfs to the smaller monsters) and Shen had the slowest cleartime out of everyone. Second slowest was volibear and then volibear got a buff.
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Reason why Shen jungle sucks ass:
1) He is not a great duelist early game, which means that there is a higher chance of being exposed to counter-jungling by strong champions such as Elise.
2) Being a weak duelist also means that covering for lanes is limited, since any two versus two situations will go in the enemy team's favour. If you are being counter-ganked, that basically means you're screwed.
3) Shen has a poor clearing time, which means that your timings for your ganks will be slower.
4) If your team survived the early game until Shen hits level six (where he will start to shine), they probably would have won even harder with a champion that had more early game presence. Split-pushing, counter-ganking with your ultimate are powerful tools that will solidify your team's lead, but only under the assumption that your team was good enough to survive the early game. If you are behind, Shen is one of the more impotent champions around, and you'll find yourself not being able to do much to help change the tempo of the game.
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You're also underleveled from the jungle which does affect how strong your Stand United is.
The infamous CLG vs SK game in S2 Worlds, SK's Shen Jungle was only level 14/15 in end game. He was missing 600 damage on his shield and you can only imagine how bad the timing was on his level 2 Stand United.
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I've been playing shen a lot since the kha changes and I noticed sometimes my ult is cancelled without teleporting me (I don't flash or get interrupted). What causes this? I thought you couldn't choose to not teleport.
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On July 25 2013 03:15 Masq wrote:
I've been playing shen a lot since the kha changes and I noticed sometimes my ult is cancelled without teleporting me (I don't flash or get interrupted). What causes this? I thought you couldn't choose to not teleport.
from wikia:: Shen will not teleport to the target if they are silenced at the exact moment when Stand United ends. The shield still applies along with the cooldown.
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if you spam move command while tping you can cancel the ult i think
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me as pantheon and vlad both collaborated and gave our kills to the warwick jungle.
he proceeded to ocarry the game by doing whatever he wanted. reverse priority op
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On July 25 2013 03:55 Kenpachi wrote:
me as pantheon and vlad both collaborated and gave our kills to the warwick jungle.
he proceeded to ocarry the game by doing whatever he wanted. reverse priority op
This should be the new thing. Laners get all farm, Jungles get all kills. Everyone wins!
Except Support. Fuck Support.
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On July 25 2013 02:31 Alaric wrote:
Also Shen is pretty bad at carrying smite and aura items like Aegis because he won't be there at the start of the fight anyway when you try to splitpush with nashor/baron threat.
People are building Bulwark shen all the time toplane. Its super strong.
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On July 25 2013 04:07 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:31 Alaric wrote:
Also Shen is pretty bad at carrying smite and aura items like Aegis because he won't be there at the start of the fight anyway when you try to splitpush with nashor/baron threat. People are building Bulwark shen all the time toplane. Its super strong.
I've noticed this trend too, I don't get it, looks on paper like a shit choice but I'm open to an explanation.
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On July 25 2013 04:07 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:31 Alaric wrote:
Also Shen is pretty bad at carrying smite and aura items like Aegis because he won't be there at the start of the fight anyway when you try to splitpush with nashor/baron threat. People are building Bulwark shen all the time toplane. Its super strong.
That might be because Bulwark is overpowered and not because it would be a strategically good idea if Bulwark wasn't overpowered.
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On July 25 2013 04:09 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:07 cLutZ wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 Alaric wrote:
Also Shen is pretty bad at carrying smite and aura items like Aegis because he won't be there at the start of the fight anyway when you try to splitpush with nashor/baron threat. People are building Bulwark shen all the time toplane. Its super strong. That might be because Bulwark is overpowered and not because it would be a strategically good idea if Bulwark wasn't overpowered.
That + You get it faster + if you have a CDR hungry jungler he can go SotAG>Locket.
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doesnt matter anymore R.I.P. Bullwark welcome Aegis of the iron solari
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On July 25 2013 04:13 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:09 Ketara wrote:On July 25 2013 04:07 cLutZ wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 Alaric wrote:
Also Shen is pretty bad at carrying smite and aura items like Aegis because he won't be there at the start of the fight anyway when you try to splitpush with nashor/baron threat. People are building Bulwark shen all the time toplane. Its super strong. That might be because Bulwark is overpowered and not because it would be a strategically good idea if Bulwark wasn't overpowered. That + You get it faster + if you have a CDR hungry jungler he can go SotAG>Locket.
It'd actually be a better idea with the new Locket because the aura isn't the primary part of the items power anymore, Shen will be able to ult in and activate Locket as soon as he gets there, shielding the entire team.
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On July 25 2013 04:08 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:07 cLutZ wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 Alaric wrote:
Also Shen is pretty bad at carrying smite and aura items like Aegis because he won't be there at the start of the fight anyway when you try to splitpush with nashor/baron threat. People are building Bulwark shen all the time toplane. Its super strong. I've noticed this trend too, I don't get it, looks on paper like a shit choice but I'm open to an explanation.
Opens your jungler to get other options, which is really good when your jungler benefits heavily from a strong early/mid offensive item like Haunting Guise (Elise, Evelynn) Still is very strong for increasing your dueling power vs. an AP opponent (You weren't going to get your Sunfire first anyway, so the fact that it delays Sunfire is irrelevant.) You are basically guaranteed at being there for major teamfights via ulti, and thus your Aura will be there also..
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On July 25 2013 03:01 Letmelose wrote:
Reason why Shen jungle sucks ass:
1) He is not a great duelist early game, which means that there is a higher chance of being exposed to counter-jungling by strong champions such as Elise.
2) Being a weak duelist also means that covering for lanes is limited, since any two versus two situations will go in the enemy team's favour. If you are being counter-ganked, that basically means you're screwed.
3) Shen has a poor clearing time, which means that your timings for your ganks will be slower.
4) If your team survived the early game until Shen hits level six (where he will start to shine), they probably would have won even harder with a champion that had more early game presence. Split-pushing, counter-ganking with your ultimate are powerful tools that will solidify your team's lead, but only under the assumption that your team was good enough to survive the early game. If you are behind, Shen is one of the more impotent champions around, and you'll find yourself not being able to do much to help change the tempo of the game.
I think it's pretty easy for a team comp to cover a lot of Shen Jungle's weaknesses. Strong roaming mids can cover it up quite a bit; also considering how 1v2's are popular; Shen isn't so bad at helping those kinds of lanes as well.
Also hearing about TSM's 1v1 mechanic training is interesting.
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EPT
