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[Patch 3.07: Nerf Everything Not Nami] General Discussion…

Forum Index > LoL General
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Looks like we're back to status quo. Hope more of you lurkers unburrow and talk with us. :3

If you have any issues or comments about the new design, feel free to PM Neo.
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 00:19:41
May 20 2013 00:15 GMT
#1201
On May 20 2013 08:55 cLutZ wrote:
LB is such a great champion, she just needs minor tweaks imo.

Faker would be totally down for her to get buffed hue. Idk, Faker proved she can work in a specific team comps at a pro level (at least countering Karthus) and she can still be a pub stomper. Her biggest issue is falling off late game but we already have champs with high assassination eary and late game and most people just complain about them lol.

On May 20 2013 09:15 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2013 09:00 Craton wrote:
I'd rather her left in obscurity.


Why? Id rather talon, kha, and zed be obscure than the fun and relatively easy to balance Leblanc.

What makes her easier to balance? AP instead of AD?
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 00:27:18
May 20 2013 00:27 GMT
#1202
1 game where he insanely counter picked his lane opponent doesnt prove much
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 00:35:07
May 20 2013 00:33 GMT
#1203
On May 20 2013 09:27 kongoline wrote:
1 game where he insanely counter picked his lane opponent doesnt prove much

I specifically said she was used as a counter, still servers more of a useful role than some champs :p
I was more curious as to how she is easier to balance.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17281 Posts
May 20 2013 00:36 GMT
#1204
Because everything that revolves against 100-0'ing someone should be deleted or left unplayable.
twitch.tv/cratonz
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 00:43:29
May 20 2013 00:36 GMT
#1205
On May 20 2013 09:15 onlywonderboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2013 08:55 cLutZ wrote:
LB is such a great champion, she just needs minor tweaks imo.

Faker would be totally down for her to get buffed hue. Idk, Faker proved she can work in a specific team comps at a pro level (at least countering Karthus) and she can still be a pub stomper. Her biggest issue is falling off late game but we already have champs with high assassination eary and late game and most people just complain about them lol.

Show nested quote +
On May 20 2013 09:15 cLutZ wrote:
On May 20 2013 09:00 Craton wrote:
I'd rather her left in obscurity.


Why? Id rather talon, kha, and zed be obscure than the fun and relatively easy to balance Leblanc.

What makes her easier to balance? AP instead of AD?


AP yes. Also crappy pushing(same with panth). So she has normal assassin bad late game and high Risk.


Edit. Plus she already has real utlity in the kit with E + the Q silence. Just shift the kit a little more in that direction instead of the high base damages she relies on now. She could be a control assassin ala Ahri.
Freeeeeeedom
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
May 20 2013 00:38 GMT
#1206
riot fucked up by introducing assassins with wave clear, escape mechanic, sustain and poke
lol wtf were they thinking
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
May 20 2013 00:42 GMT
#1207
On May 20 2013 09:36 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2013 09:15 onlywonderboy wrote:
On May 20 2013 08:55 cLutZ wrote:
LB is such a great champion, she just needs minor tweaks imo.

Faker would be totally down for her to get buffed hue. Idk, Faker proved she can work in a specific team comps at a pro level (at least countering Karthus) and she can still be a pub stomper. Her biggest issue is falling off late game but we already have champs with high assassination eary and late game and most people just complain about them lol.

On May 20 2013 09:15 cLutZ wrote:
On May 20 2013 09:00 Craton wrote:
I'd rather her left in obscurity.


Why? Id rather talon, kha, and zed be obscure than the fun and relatively easy to balance Leblanc.

What makes her easier to balance? AP instead of AD?


AP yes. Also crappy pushing(same with panth). So she has normal assassin bad late game and high Risk.


So what kind of tweeks would make her more viable? I'm just wondering since you seem invested in LB. Do you want her to still be a risky pick but not as risky? I realize this comment kinda sounds like I'm being a sarcastic asshole but I'm actually interested.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 00:48:22
May 20 2013 00:42 GMT
#1208
LB doesn't even fall off, that notion is a relic of a time when everyone and their brother was just cramming as many AOE ults on a team as possible and that was dominant strategy. Now teams run a lot of single target and assassins are quite viable.

Leblanc has 4 damaging abilities with outstanding base damage and scaling. Her Q is 330base + .9 when procced, on a 6 second cd for gods sake, thats ridiculous. She also has the longest diving/pick potential in the game and a two second silence + two 2.2 second roots if you need utility in a teamfight. She actually has far less problems lategame than many other assassins because she has absolutely absurd mobility and escape, it's nearly impossible to protect a squishy from someone who can come in from 2000 range and execute her entire combo and blink out in less than a second.

LB's problem is her shitty waveclear.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Capped
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 01:26:51
May 20 2013 00:47 GMT
#1209
Hey guys, im writing some guides for my clan mates to help them along in PvP a bit, they're all bots players with little to no knowledge of the things ive written about. They're starting to play alot more ARAM / 3's / Normals now so i figured i'd take the time to write up some basics for them.

Mind reading through them and correcting any mistakes ive made? Im not exactly pro-tier here.

Harrassment (Non sexual lul)

+ Show Spoiler +
Harrass is a huge part of LoL, its done from early to end game and by all roles in different forms, i'll split it into a few categories and give a short overview.

Harrassment is when you want to disrupt / hurt the enemy, wanting to kill them is something different, which usually stems from good harrass, if you get a good engage on harrass, going all-in for the kill is common.

1) Carries (ADC / Mid / Top)
2) Jungler.
3) Support.
4) After Lane-Phase

1) Carries

So carries have a couple rules when they are going to harrass and is pretty easy to follow.

1) Will i go even or come out ahead.
2) Will he lose CS?
3) Will I lose CS?

Will you do equal or more damage to your opponent then what he will do to you? Including actual damage and CS loss. Its a simple thing to follow.

For example - You engage toplane and deal 20% hp and take 15% hp damage yourself. You lose 3 CS and they lose 5. That is a good harrass / trade.
Another example is choosing to auto attack caitlyn as ezreal bot, you hit him with 1 skill and an AA (Auto attack), the support stuns you and you take 2 AA's and caitlyns Q. Bad trade.

Jungler

A junglers harrass is usually just coming into lane and forcing the enemy to back off. If a lane is struggling just walking into lane and hanging around (like sitting in a brush and making sure they know your there) can give the lane enough time to recover and catch up / get ahead on CS.

Try not to camp the lane too much as the longer you sit there, the further you get behind yourself. 15-20 seconds of presence is often enough if you're not planning to gank.

Support

Supports focus on harrass, they have nothing to do early game other then harrass and ward. A supports harrass will be on disrupting the enemy ADC, making them lose CS and opening them up to harrass from your ADC. They can do this by just walking around looking angry (Leona / Alistar) making the ADC back off and lose a CS or getting aggressive and letting the ADC poke them (A taric stun.)

If you're getting aggressive its important to ask yourself if your ADC is in the position to take advantage of it, just like when you go all-in for a kill. Ask yourself this.
1)Are they in range to take a potshot?
2)Are either of you low enough to have it turned around on you if they decide to fight.

Harrass "Presence" in lane is just that, make yourself known. As a leona i like to walk around throwing random E's at the ADC when they are about to take a last hit forcing them to back off and lose it. This is lane presence. Often just walking up to them can make them run scared, because they fear what you COULD do.

A support AFK in brush is a bad support. Yes, even a soraka.

4) After lane phase

Once laning phase is over, harrassment takes on two forms - Pushing and Poke.

Poke - Poke is just that, when you're in that 5v5 mid situation where your all dancing around taking potshots at eachother, those potshots are poke. Being able to damage the enemy before a fight so you have an innate advantage when it happens.
Firing off long range skills / aoe's / Auto attacks is what sums up poke, doing damage before the fight happens.

Pushing - Pushing is difficult to explain, it can be used for and against a team so i'll explain both

Pushing advantage - If the enemy team is all focused on pushing bot. 1/2 players of your team could go and push top lane while the others defend, its infinitely harder for their team to engage you under a tower while your team free-pushes the other lane and gets towers / CS while the enemy are being useless elsewhere.

Pushing Disadvantage - 1-2 members of your team are pushing botlane. The enemy see's this and rushes to baron and starts it. You cant react fast enough because 1-2 members are out of place and you'll be fighting at a disadvantage so you either take a bad fight knowing you'll lose or you give them a free baron. (This works for dragon too.)

Thats all im confident enough to tell you, for fear of typing pure bullshit thats wrong.


Creep Score (CS)

+ Show Spoiler +
Creep Score (CS) Is the number of minions killed. It is vital that you keep these numbers in-line, as each kill grants gold and gold = items = power = kills = win.

At 10 minutes, a total of 108 minions will have entered (and died) in lane. This can be multiplied for higher timings (15, 20 etc) This is disregarding the farming of jungle creeps (Mid - Wraiths most predominantly.)

So:

10 Mins - Total minions = 108
15 Mins - Total minions = 162
20 Mins - Total minions = 216
30 Mins - Total minions = 324

Now, past the 10 minute mark everything goes to shit and the game runs at different paces so saying "have X CS by 20 min" is unreliable. Prior to 10 mins, everyones in lane doing their own thing.

The general rule for CS at 10 min is above 70. Always try and get above 70 CS by 10 minutes. This allows for 30% of the total CS available to you to be lost in fights / ganks / harrass / b2b's (back to base)

If your just freefarming and no action is taking place / you dont have to back then 100 CS at 10 mins is entirely possible.

So try to have:

70 CS - 10 Min
100 CS - 13-14 Min
175+ CS - 20 min (Varies)

Last Hitting

Last Hitting is waiting untill you can 1 hit kill (1HKO) a minion and then doing so. This grants you full EXP and Gold with the following advantages.

Now you all infamously took the piss out of me when we all played bots for doing this (Hi multi.) but its extremely useful in PvP for these reasons.

-Its the most effective and reliable way of scoring CS.
-It doesnt push lane super hard and open you up to ganks.
-It gives you time to harrass, poke and position against the enemy.

Last Hitting is the best way to play in lanes due to these advantages. You'll get more gold, be less open to ganks and be able to concentrate more on what you / your enemy are doing then slowly chipping away at those creeps. Knowing when to CS and when to harrass an enemy champion takes practice.

Using skills to kill minions is often stupid. Especially as an ADC. Exceptions are things like Morgana's W and skills equivilent, which are freefarm mechanics. Or top laners being shoved out of lane. Like an olaf using his Q to pick up CS so he doesnt die / take insane poke. Save your mana for dem champions.

The way the minions work, a good 80% of the time they will focus down one minion which means you wont lose CS from having 2-3 die at the same time.

Once lanes start stacking this becomes unreliable and you are forced to use AA's (Auto attacks) to even it out, this is advanced and even i dont know what im doing with it because its pretty hard, but the general principle is:

Use auto attacks to even out a lane so you can last hit them all. For instance - 2 minions at 80% losing 10% hp every 2 seconds. You would hit one of them for 20% so that they would be 60% - 80% and dropping 10% at the same time, so that they get low at different times and you can kill them both one after the other.

Pushing lane / sieging.

All of this goes out the window once you want to push the lane to tower and start sieging.

This is sorta related but more a harassment technique. Shoving to the enemy tower causes them to lose CS, it is infinitely harder to CS under tower as it hits for a crap ton of damage, wheras you can practically carry on doing your thang (at risk of ganks.)


General tips and tricks

+ Show Spoiler +
So i figured i'd start a thread for us all to suggest our tips n tricks for LoL.

- In ARAM its a good idea to have someone on the team build aegis / bulwark - it gives that extra bit of added def / MR to everyone and as your ALWAYS teamfighting, its very efficient, also nobody ever builds armor / MR so you'll give them at least something. Generally someone who is melee / tanky so that the others can go ragemode.

- The above also applies to items that offer team buffs (Zekes Herald, Wisdom of the ancients etc)

- Use the correct runes / masteries for champions, it helps ALOT. You can find the optimal ones in a good build on TSM's or any respected build website.

- Before you jump into a teamfight (Initiate) drop a ping on who your going to target so that 1) Your team knows you're going to fight and 2) your team knows how to focus. How many times have you initiated only to have your team walk off or attack someone completely different leaving you dead and 3 of them at 50% hp.

- Always keep wards up in your lane in a Summoners Rift 5v5. To prevent ganks and know enemy position.
Blue: http://www.snickersnacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/blue_wards.png
Purple: http://www.snickersnacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/purple_wards.png

- Ties in with the above - Always keep wards up when you're pushing lane so you dont get sandwiched and bumfiddled.

-Again the above, Always try to know where the enemy jungle and other lanes are. Make an internal checklist.
Lane 1 - Check
Lane 2 - Check
Jungler visible / not nearby - Check
Then push.

- Dont trade kills (1 for 1 etc) if your ahead, it just feeds up the other team because your worth more.

- Suicide is often worth it to claim an opponents bounty (kill streak) - think your worth 150g, they are worth 500g.

- Did i mention wards.

- Use proper builds. "Winging" it is usually suboptimal and leads to you being ineffective. There are plenty of websites for good builds.


Good LoL Websites

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.solomid.net

Good website for builds and pro-streams. Only use builds that are Featured or Approved.

http://www.lolking.net/

Shows yours and other player's game stats + Other stuff i havent used before.

http://www.championselect.net/

Shows you counterpicks. What champions are good and bad vs others.

[OUTDATED]
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/rune-tips-what-secondary-and-primary-means-and-more-24255

Runes, a guide on them, primary, secondary, best for each role etc - Outdated but still useful.
Useless wet fish.
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
May 20 2013 00:52 GMT
#1210
Probuilds.net and Lolpro are good sites for finding skill and builds without having to go through bronze scrubs, especially Probuilds.

also you're is the contraction of you are, not your.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Dark_Chill
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada3353 Posts
May 20 2013 00:53 GMT
#1211
On May 20 2013 09:42 sob3k wrote:
LB doesn't even fall off, that notion is a relic of a time when everyone and their brother was just cramming as many AOE ults on a team as possible and that was dominant strategy. Now teams run a lot of single target and assassins are quite viable.

Leblanc has 4 damaging abilities with outstanding base damage and scaling. Her Q is 330base + .9 when procced, on a 6 second cd for gods sake, thats ridiculous. She also has the longest diving/pick potential in the game and a two second silence + two 2.2 second roots if you need utility in a teamfight.

LB's problem is her shitty waveclear.


Don't see why that problem is a bad thing though. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, and you're saying that it's good that she has that problem.
Leblanc is always going to be a bitch to balance because of how much damage she does if you don't shut her down. She requires coordination to deal with. She revolves around bursting someone down and then getting the hell out. She's a low level nightmare.
Shifting some of her base damage over to either utility or possibly more scaling damage would definitely make her a better champ, as she's pretty much exactly what you'd want in an assassin.
CUTE MAKES RIGHT
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
May 20 2013 00:56 GMT
#1212
Too much info imo.Just teach them to play champs they like and know what they do/what to itemize/why wards are good/look at mini map/try to cs as much as possible/don't engage when people aren't there(minimap again I guess).

If these guys don't understand last hitting you really should take it slow lol.

Otherwise they are good tips.
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
May 20 2013 00:57 GMT
#1213
Hmm, there's a bug where you can TP to Zac's blob to make it invincible, guaranteeing his respawn. Pretty frustrating.
I am the Town Medic.
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 01:00:47
May 20 2013 00:57 GMT
#1214
LB definitely doesn't need more scaling damage. She can output 4ap every 20 seconds with 20%cdr (DFG and masteries).
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
May 20 2013 01:00 GMT
#1215
On May 20 2013 09:42 onlywonderboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2013 09:36 cLutZ wrote:
On May 20 2013 09:15 onlywonderboy wrote:
On May 20 2013 08:55 cLutZ wrote:
LB is such a great champion, she just needs minor tweaks imo.

Faker would be totally down for her to get buffed hue. Idk, Faker proved she can work in a specific team comps at a pro level (at least countering Karthus) and she can still be a pub stomper. Her biggest issue is falling off late game but we already have champs with high assassination eary and late game and most people just complain about them lol.

On May 20 2013 09:15 cLutZ wrote:
On May 20 2013 09:00 Craton wrote:
I'd rather her left in obscurity.


Why? Id rather talon, kha, and zed be obscure than the fun and relatively easy to balance Leblanc.

What makes her easier to balance? AP instead of AD?


AP yes. Also crappy pushing(same with panth). So she has normal assassin bad late game and high Risk.


So what kind of tweeks would make her more viable? I'm just wondering since you seem invested in LB. Do you want her to still be a risky pick but not as risky? I realize this comment kinda sounds like I'm being a sarcastic asshole but I'm actually interested.


I wouldn't call myself "invested", I just think she is cool and the kind of assassin/mage that actually has a place in the game. That place would be clear if we killed of Khazix and Zed (who have no place in the game). She has her E which is a ultility skillshot that she needs to hit, her W which is a super expensive jump, with trickeration ability, and she has her Q, which currently is a bit too binary for my liking.

What we want is a Leblanc with the ability to fish with E, and if she hits be able to do punishing (but perhaps not instagib) damage if E lands, but also be able to use the threat of E>R>E to control where fights occur. Waveclear is a problem for LB, but that is the appropriate weakness for her, which is not as big a tradeoff if there are not other champs that have said strengths without that weakness.
Freeeeeeedom
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 01:19:37
May 20 2013 01:07 GMT
#1216
On May 20 2013 09:38 kongoline wrote:
riot fucked up by introducing assassins with wave clear, escape mechanic, sustain and poke
lol wtf were they thinking

Because instead of accepting the lopsided design of assassins (powerful solo-killing/ganking, weak sieging/poking/teamfighting), and balancing them around their unique strengths/weaknesses, they decided to just make a bunch of assassin kits that do everything.
Moderator
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 01:08:24
May 20 2013 01:07 GMT
#1217
On May 20 2013 09:36 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2013 09:15 onlywonderboy wrote:
On May 20 2013 08:55 cLutZ wrote:
LB is such a great champion, she just needs minor tweaks imo.

Faker would be totally down for her to get buffed hue. Idk, Faker proved she can work in a specific team comps at a pro level (at least countering Karthus) and she can still be a pub stomper. Her biggest issue is falling off late game but we already have champs with high assassination eary and late game and most people just complain about them lol.

On May 20 2013 09:15 cLutZ wrote:
On May 20 2013 09:00 Craton wrote:
I'd rather her left in obscurity.


Why? Id rather talon, kha, and zed be obscure than the fun and relatively easy to balance Leblanc.

What makes her easier to balance? AP instead of AD?


AP yes. Also crappy pushing(same with panth). So she has normal assassin bad late game and high Risk.

lol. Panth has crappy pushing lol

Lategame panth is all about splitpushing with your E.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
May 20 2013 01:11 GMT
#1218
On May 20 2013 09:42 sob3k wrote:
LB's problem is her shitty waveclear.

They're related issues. A champ with poor wave clear farms slowly, which means that she will have less gold, and thus, less items in a game where both sides are farming. Hence the idea that she's poor lategame because if the tempo of the game stalls out, she won't farm as quickly or efficiently as champs that can instaclear waves and rapidly have the creep wave on the other side of the map. If she's not getting kills and snowballing the game, she will get outfarmed.

This isn't true of the newer assassins like Zed and Kha'zix because both of them clear creep waves extremely quickly.
Moderator
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
May 20 2013 01:14 GMT
#1219
On May 20 2013 10:07 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2013 09:36 cLutZ wrote:
On May 20 2013 09:15 onlywonderboy wrote:
On May 20 2013 08:55 cLutZ wrote:
LB is such a great champion, she just needs minor tweaks imo.

Faker would be totally down for her to get buffed hue. Idk, Faker proved she can work in a specific team comps at a pro level (at least countering Karthus) and she can still be a pub stomper. Her biggest issue is falling off late game but we already have champs with high assassination eary and late game and most people just complain about them lol.

On May 20 2013 09:15 cLutZ wrote:
On May 20 2013 09:00 Craton wrote:
I'd rather her left in obscurity.


Why? Id rather talon, kha, and zed be obscure than the fun and relatively easy to balance Leblanc.

What makes her easier to balance? AP instead of AD?


AP yes. Also crappy pushing(same with panth). So she has normal assassin bad late game and high Risk.

lol. Panth has crappy pushing lol

Lategame panth is all about splitpushing with your E.


LOL. Lategame splitpush pushing is nearly irrelevant. Please use your E on the wave during a tower siege or during the laning phase.

I dare you.
Freeeeeeedom
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
May 20 2013 01:20 GMT
#1220
On May 20 2013 09:38 kongoline wrote:
riot fucked up by introducing assassins with wave clear, escape mechanic, sustain and poke
lol wtf were they thinking

Fucking Zed man. Honestly. :s

Kha's actually fine as is minus his evo'd W's current state. Riot's looking to change that anyways.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
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