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Looks like we're back to status quo. Hope more of you lurkers unburrow and talk with us. :3 If you have any issues or comments about the new design, feel free to PM Neo. |
On May 20 2013 02:20 Shikyo wrote:
His waveclear also is NP after 6 and he doesn't need a blue as all Swains rush Athenes as well.
Just. Stop. Please.
Swain is a good lane bully that has low range and a heavy reliance on farm because his ult is entirely worthless if he can get 100-0, be it 1v1, during a gank or a teamfight, he also has shit wave clearing and last hitting (lack of a short cooldown nuke to help last hit under tower, his Q and E being DoTs and even R is periodic damage) so his strengths are somewhat easy to circumvent for most champions who can just push (they don't even need to instaclear) from afar since they won't need to ever get in his effective range and can abuse his poor pushing ability to out-roam him.
He's pretty strong against any melee champ without a gap closer or a way to stick after it is used (or who actually cares about sticking to him, making poke and kill or burst champs like currently popular Jayce/Kha'Zix/Zed unhindered if not outright strong against him), and the way his damage works means that you're not "wasting" it if you first target the bruiser who jumps in the fray, saving your next rotation for the squishy that will expose himself, especially compared to ult-reliant burst mages like Viktor or Annie (of course he's also weaker than Anivia/TF/Lux in this aspect).
Mobility creep hurts him.
Inexisting mana costs creep hurts him (and he can't just rush Tear because then he'll get burst down before he can start healing, contrary to pokers like Kha/Jayce and not having the range+natural tankiness of Urgot).
Pushing creep hurts him (who was the last released champ who can't push easily? Well, I guess I can somewhat concede Zac, he's still better than a bunch though).
Powercreep hurts him because the more defense he has to itemise not to die outright the less AP/MPen he has.
Morellonomicon buffs hurt him.
So he tends to get weaker every time the pool expands, and the current FotM don't really offer him strong match-ups so he's not really situationally good either.
Still a strong counterpick and a fearful sight if fed, but you can't first pick like you would Orianna or the other team will have a bunch of ways to make your day hell.
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Ahri is becoming popular again, he does well vs. Ahri, thats all I can really add to what Alaric said, besides pls don't rush Grail lol.
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On May 20 2013 02:23 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 02:21 Artok wrote:On May 20 2013 02:20 Shikyo wrote:
Swain EQ -> autos -> W the escape route trading is really strong against ranged mages as well if he can get close. His waveclear also is NP after 6 and he doesn't need a blue as all Swains rush Athenes as well. Remember Anivia waveclear is awful before 6 as well. I don't think he's awful but there's usually better options short ranged sustained damage ap mages that have to be in the middle of fight and have only skillshot cc are awful sadly You mean vlad, minus the cc?
vlad with mana, no escape and no aoe amp, seems about right
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Well a Swain just got picked in my game, Diamond III, if you're interested (I'm top and I guess he'll mid but we'll see) :
http://www.twitch.tv/mr_tolkien
EDIT : Holy balls my Darius sucks
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That flash into the bush by Zac was pretty amazing.
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Swain's W is waveclear by the way. Standard strenght as well. You can max it if you need it. You're making him seem completely unviable but that just isn't the case, he's matchup dependent of course but the game's pretty well balanced.
Comparing Swain to Vlad is sort of funny, in that specific matchup for example Swain just kills Vlad for free over and over and zones him from lvl 1. Swain's early laning is far better. Zhonyas Hourglass has gotten stronger and it allows Swain to not get instantly exploded in teamfights. The addition of Spirit of the Spectral Wraith also helps him. Furthermore, it's not like he even is melee and needs to run into an entire team 1v5, sheesh. I also don't really understand why he's supposed to dive a squishy or why he's bad against tanks, maybe someone can explain that.
Yup, I do believe in nearly every champion being viable currently.
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On May 20 2013 03:08 Shikyo wrote:
Swain's W is waveclear by the way. Standard strenght as well. You can max it if you need it. You're making him seem completely unviable but that just isn't the case, he's matchup dependent of course but the game's pretty well balanced.
Comparing Swain to Vlad is sort of funny, in that specific matchup for example Swain just kills Vlad for free over and over and zones him from lvl 1. Swain's early laning is far better. Zhonyas Hourglass has gotten stronger and it allows Swain to not get instantly exploded in teamfights. The addition of Spirit of the Spectral Wraith also helps him. Furthermore, it's not like he even is melee and needs to run into an entire team 1v5, sheesh. I also don't really understand why he's supposed to dive a squishy or why he's bad against tanks, maybe someone can explain that.
Yup, I do believe in nearly every champion being viable currently.
If you max w on swain you'll get outraded by every single champ in the game.How can you max it lol.The whole point of swain is to zone opponent from cs by freezing since you can't push and aren't safe vs ganks at all.
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So... just played against a Quinn directly for the first time since she got buffed, and I understand better why people said it was huge. The "interrupt" acts the same as the root the moment she casts it, you can't flash (even preemptively), and if you start a dash or something before she casts it she'll stop it.
Her E is actually an extremely good setup skill for other cc/skillshots (provided you don't dash to your death, that is, so mostly laning and ganks I guess). o_o
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not saying Swain is inherently bad, in a game with ~115 champions you can be mid tier and have roughly 50 better champions, this is his problem.
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On May 20 2013 03:10 Alaric wrote:
So... just played against a Quinn directly for the first time since she got buffed, and I understand better why people said it was huge. The "interrupt" acts the same as the root the moment she casts it, you can't flash (even preemptively), and if you start a dash or something before she casts it she'll stop it.
Her E is actually an extremely good setup skill for other cc/skillshots (provided you don't dash to your death, that is, so mostly laning and ganks I guess). o_o
Singed will still fling Quinn though which still cements Singed as #1 Quinn counter in the game. I'm pretty certain Volibear flip won't flip you though if you E to him. But yeah Quinn's good. It took quite a few months for Draven and Varus to catch on and it'll probably take Quinn just as long (or perhaps longer). The fact that they nerfed three ADCs this patch kind of helps her too.
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On May 20 2013 03:20 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 03:10 Alaric wrote:
So... just played against a Quinn directly for the first time since she got buffed, and I understand better why people said it was huge. The "interrupt" acts the same as the root the moment she casts it, you can't flash (even preemptively), and if you start a dash or something before she casts it she'll stop it.
Her E is actually an extremely good setup skill for other cc/skillshots (provided you don't dash to your death, that is, so mostly laning and ganks I guess). o_o Singed will still fling Quinn though which still cements Singed as #1 Quinn counter in the game. I'm pretty certain Volibear flip won't flip you though if you E to him. But yeah Quinn's good. It took quite a few months for Draven and Varus to catch on and it'll probably take Quinn just as long (or perhaps longer). The fact that they nerfed three ADCs this patch kind of helps her too.
League community is rather terrible at recognizing that something is good and starting to play it.Not a big fan of quinn tbh.The blind is pretty good but they should make it like corki's bomb imo.Because if you just stay in creeps it's rather easy to outtrade her.
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On May 19 2013 23:01 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2013 22:53 Shikyo wrote:On May 19 2013 22:50 Letmelose wrote:It's been quite a while since I last saw Uzi, and I must say his Vayne mechanics has been quite underwhelming considering how high I thought his level was. And why is it that every time I tune in to watch some high quality Chinese games everyone farms up to six items before doing anything?  It's pretty much the chinese tradition to farm until 60min before fighting Now I understand why iG throws so much. I would gouge my eyeballs out purely from frustration if I had to play like this every single game. I personally thought it wouldn't be so bad if China won the All Stars Championship since it would be more likely we'll get to enjoy the talents of players such as Uzi, Cool, and LoveLin. Now I'll be praying everyday that Korea takes it. Imagine the group stages filled with teams like Evil Geniuses, Team We, and OMG. They will bore their oppositon into submission.
Watch the IG vs OMG game instead (linked in this thread earlier). Chinese games tend to have a lot more skirmishes than all in's. You tend to see a LOT more map movement despite the fewer earlier fights over dragon because teams often shift to guarantee or equal advantages elsewhere. I don't think it's quite the farmfest you raise it to be but it can at times be less exciting if two teams are closer matched because of the position jockeying rather than the rock'em sock'em robot fights that can be a bit more thrilling.
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On May 20 2013 03:20 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 03:10 Alaric wrote:
So... just played against a Quinn directly for the first time since she got buffed, and I understand better why people said it was huge. The "interrupt" acts the same as the root the moment she casts it, you can't flash (even preemptively), and if you start a dash or something before she casts it she'll stop it.
Her E is actually an extremely good setup skill for other cc/skillshots (provided you don't dash to your death, that is, so mostly laning and ganks I guess). o_o Singed will still fling Quinn though which still cements Singed as #1 Quinn counter in the game. I'm pretty certain Volibear flip won't flip you though if you E to him. But yeah Quinn's good. It took quite a few months for Draven and Varus to catch on and it'll probably take Quinn just as long (or perhaps longer). The fact that they nerfed three ADCs this patch kind of helps her too.
This happened to me and OMG I HATED IT SO MUCH. Singed support (trololol) made it so I couldn't use my E at all as a kiting tool because it basically shoves you SO out of position. (Your vault goes AFTER his flip as long as he queued the move on you at some point).
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On May 20 2013 03:28 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 03:20 overt wrote:On May 20 2013 03:10 Alaric wrote:
So... just played against a Quinn directly for the first time since she got buffed, and I understand better why people said it was huge. The "interrupt" acts the same as the root the moment she casts it, you can't flash (even preemptively), and if you start a dash or something before she casts it she'll stop it.
Her E is actually an extremely good setup skill for other cc/skillshots (provided you don't dash to your death, that is, so mostly laning and ganks I guess). o_o Singed will still fling Quinn though which still cements Singed as #1 Quinn counter in the game. I'm pretty certain Volibear flip won't flip you though if you E to him. But yeah Quinn's good. It took quite a few months for Draven and Varus to catch on and it'll probably take Quinn just as long (or perhaps longer). The fact that they nerfed three ADCs this patch kind of helps her too. League community is rather terrible at recognizing that something is good and starting to play it.Not a big fan of quinn tbh.The blind is pretty good but they should make it like corki's bomb imo.Because if you just stay in creeps it's rather easy to outtrade her.
If the enemy stands in the creeps you Q the creeps and blind them? You realize it's an AoE right? So if the enemy ADC is standing in the ranged or melee minions you can just Q minions and you blind the ADC. Or you can EautoQauto for like 50% of their health while they're blinded (this is risky though and can't be done against every support). You have to be careful what you pick Quinn into because certain supports, mostly just Leona and Thresh, can give her a ton of trouble. But E sets up so much easy CC for your support and having a blind on an ADC is OP.
Her ult is more useful than people initially gave it credit for too. At level 6 you can all-in and you're going to win the trade with the enemy ADC (although if you have a bad support or if they have Leona/Thresh you probably can't all-in). In team fights it's probably the best clean up ult. It saves your life a lot from people who dive you too.
She'll take longer to catch on than Draven/Varus did but she'll catch on for sure.
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So, if I get it well, it goes
- Quinn casts E
- her target is interrupted
- she dashes, collides and slows
- the interrupt stops and the target can resume actions while she bounces back
Meaning you can't flash/dash during the cast, but spells that can be queued (like Fling) will be executed after the interrupts ends, so during the bounce back?
^ in my game I was Graves with Blitz against Quinn/Leona, she did a bunch of damage (not half, but I was running 13 in the defense tree and there's my passive) but dblade+vamp+lifesteal quints helped me sustain back up pretty fast. I'd probably have lost those fights really hard if Leona followed up on the Es though, and I ended up getting carried by Blitz's plays and some ganks.
Also I went BT first while she was shooting for IE, so once it was stacked, since Leona never engaged I would just fire W after Quinn jumped me and use the slow to auto - point-blank Q - R her and we'd outdamage. I think if Leona had been decent at the champ the trades would have hurt a lot more (or outright killed me before I could kill them).
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She's gotten better bottom but the recent buffs just made top Quinn even better than it was before.
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On May 20 2013 03:39 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 03:28 nafta wrote:On May 20 2013 03:20 overt wrote:On May 20 2013 03:10 Alaric wrote:
So... just played against a Quinn directly for the first time since she got buffed, and I understand better why people said it was huge. The "interrupt" acts the same as the root the moment she casts it, you can't flash (even preemptively), and if you start a dash or something before she casts it she'll stop it.
Her E is actually an extremely good setup skill for other cc/skillshots (provided you don't dash to your death, that is, so mostly laning and ganks I guess). o_o Singed will still fling Quinn though which still cements Singed as #1 Quinn counter in the game. I'm pretty certain Volibear flip won't flip you though if you E to him. But yeah Quinn's good. It took quite a few months for Draven and Varus to catch on and it'll probably take Quinn just as long (or perhaps longer). The fact that they nerfed three ADCs this patch kind of helps her too. League community is rather terrible at recognizing that something is good and starting to play it.Not a big fan of quinn tbh.The blind is pretty good but they should make it like corki's bomb imo.Because if you just stay in creeps it's rather easy to outtrade her. If the enemy stands in the creeps you Q the creeps and blind them? You realize it's an AoE right? So if the enemy ADC is standing in the ranged or melee minions you can just Q minions and you blind the ADC. Or you can EautoQauto for like 50% of their health while they're blinded (this is risky though and can't be done against every support). You have to be careful what you pick Quinn into because certain supports, mostly just Leona and Thresh, can give her a ton of trouble. But E sets up so much easy CC for your support and having a blind on an ADC is OP. Her ult is more useful than people initially gave it credit for too. At level 6 you can all-in and you're going to win the trade with the enemy ADC (although if you have a bad support or if they have Leona/Thresh you probably can't all-in). In team fights it's probably the best clean up ult. It saves your life a lot from people who dive you too. She'll take longer to catch on than Draven/Varus did but she'll catch on for sure.
I know it is aoe obviously.But it isn't very big.Maybe the quinns I played against were just terrible at using the champ.I mean if I can win laning phase as vayne with equal supports generally I consider the champ to have really bad laning ^^.I can see how she is good vs some bruisers though so there is potential at least.
Generally I'm a player that plays not so popular champs but quinn never really seemed that good or interesting to me .Only exception is varus after the "nerf" which was actually a buff lol.
edit:Yeah I am talking about adc quinn but now I realize that might not be best role for her.
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The chalice passive does not make up for not having blue buff on Swain. It helps a lot but there's a huge difference between having blue buff and not having it even if you have chalice.
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On May 20 2013 03:56 koreasilver wrote:
The chalice passive does not make up for not having blue buff on Swain. It helps a lot but there's a huge difference between having blue buff and not having it even if you have chalice.
This, especially when it comes to farming under turret. If you have blue, you can afford to sit in burd form and get dem minions, but your mana dies if you that with just chalice.
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I've tried maxing W first on Swain.... it's just..... so bad.....
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EPT
