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Looks like we're back to status quo. Hope more of you lurkers unburrow and talk with us. :3 If you have any issues or comments about the new design, feel free to PM Neo. | ||
AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
On June 10 2013 07:24 onlywonderboy wrote: Fuck that, I don't need another Elo based ranking in my life I'm bad at. Need MoonBear to teach me all about the Pokemon meta. Sure you do, keeps you humble. =P What else are you going to do in queue anyways? | ||
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WilDMousE
Chile1335 Posts
On June 10 2013 07:31 AsmodeusXI wrote: Sure you do, keeps you humble. =P What else are you going to do in queue anyways? Moonbear is fake, he says he can eat cookies, but bears dont eat cookies in space! | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On June 10 2013 07:16 Badboyrune wrote: I've yet to play a multiplayer game where the benefits of adding stealth outweighed the balance issues and frustration that comes with it. I can't think of a single multiplayer game where I wouldn't have preferred to have stealth removed. I liked rogues in WoW during the TBC era. No one else did, but I played Pally. On June 10 2013 07:14 Jojo131 wrote: Does stealth for Eve work similarly to every other stealth champ? (just get a pink etc) If so then i could see the conflict, and even then it seems silly to argue "all 3 lanes shouldn't have to ward just to counter 1 champion" because if you think about it Eve (especially jungle) becomes pretty useless if she can't sneak up on anyone. The problem is one that I tried to mathcraft when M5 busted her out mid (they might have been GG at that time) and Rengar was also fairly strong. It tried to figure out how weak Eve needed to be to account for each ward normally bought to have to cost 50g extra. Then people pointed out that that didn't even account for it all because you need extra wards just to see things that you normally could see (like a midlane Karthus needs to put a pink in lane just to live, supports need oracles for every teamfight to prevent flanks). The TLDR is she needs to be like 100g/min weaker than non-stealth champs. Old Rengar needed to be like 25-50G/min weaker because of the extra cost of ganking him + the need for oracles. It was stupid. | ||
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caelym
United States6421 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On June 10 2013 07:47 wei2coolman wrote: But if she was 100g/min weaker than other champs. Then you wouldn't need to buy wards cuz she'll be such shit that you just crush her no matter when she shows up. Don't understand the complaint about stealth. It's like complaining you need to buy armor against khaziks cuz he does a lot of physical damage. Problematic to balance, yes. But, it's just a feature like any other ability. No, because theoretically that gold deficit of ~100g/min is what is imposed on the other team via buying pinks/oracles that would otherwise be unnecessary. The problem for Eve is that she has very little utility outside of a small slow on her Ultimate, so combat stats are of the essence to her being strong. Thus, balanced on the blade of a knife she will always be. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On June 10 2013 07:19 Jojo131 wrote: Spies in TF2 are pretty manageable, it's all a mind game. + Show Spoiler + Unless you play Pyro Spies in TF2 are really weird. I used to play TF2 a ton and spies could vary from being one of the most OP classes against pubbers/inexperienced players to being completely worthless against people who were really good. In competitive 6s the only time you would see a Spy was during huge stalemates on maps where playing Sniper wasn't as advantageous (such as being stalled on the mid point of Granary) and even then the likelihood of you getting a pick was really low, it took a lot of time, and if it happened to work it was a combination of luck and the other team not expecting it. Spy in TF2 is honestly a really good example of stealth being hard to balance in a competitive game. Although I'm sure people would argue that TF2 isn't a 'true' competitive game (especially now). | ||
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
On June 10 2013 07:42 caelym wrote: congrats necrosed! It's nice to see the coaches up there with the players during the award ceremony. BR Nationals will be really exciting. Thanks man! I was sad that there was no talk of the tournament here in TL, but I'm happy someone payed attention. :D really happy right now. We broke a tournament dry-spell of years with this one. | ||
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AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
On June 10 2013 08:02 necrosed wrote: Thanks man! I was sad that there was no talk of the tournament here in TL, but I'm happy someone payed attention. :D really happy right now. We broke a tournament dry-spell of years with this one. Congrats. Always great to have a TL poster do something awesome. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 10 2013 07:52 cLutZ wrote: No, because theoretically that gold deficit of ~100g/min is what is imposed on the other team via buying pinks/oracles that would otherwise be unnecessary. The problem for Eve is that she has very little utility outside of a small slow on her Ultimate, so combat stats are of the essence to her being strong. Thus, balanced on the blade of a knife she will always be. You can't make that comparson because by nature the value of stealth is variable based on the tempo of the game, and the teams in question. Stealth by nature has higher value in spread out games with gank opportunities and solo farming. It has lower value in games with heavy teamfighting and 5-man gameplay because intrinsically in those situations the amount of coverage you need is lower and the opportunities for an invisible champion are less. This spread is where the dynamic gameplay of stealth champions comes from. It's also not the only ability that has this sort of property. The problem is: 1) As with many things, it's problematic in the context of blind pick because of how it's effect on the game is so variable based on a team's game plan 2) Riot tends to like to tone down the lopsidedness of these mechanics with heavily defined strengths and weaknesses, and it's actually quite hard to do that with stealth because of how fixed the fundamentals of the mechanic are. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On June 10 2013 08:03 wei2coolman wrote: I don't think you understand. If she isn't a threat. Then people won't need to buy wards. Arguably pre remake eve fell under this issue. Sure she had better stealth properties, but was so weak that enemy didn't even need to buy wards. Thats why shes "balanced on the blade of the knife". She needs to be a big enough threat to compel the purchase of the pink wards, but not so strong that those purchases make her team stronger than the other team (obviously not counting things like outplays etc). Edit: On June 10 2013 08:05 TheYango wrote: You can't make that comparson because by nature the value of stealth is variable based on the tempo of the game, and the teams in question. Stealth by nature has higher value in spread out games with gank opportunities and solo farming. It has lower value in games with heavy teamfighting and 5-man gameplay because intrinsically in those situations the amount of coverage you need is lower and the opportunities for an invisible champion are less. This spread is where the dynamic gameplay of stealth champions comes from. It's also not the only ability that has this sort of property. The problem is: 1) As with many things, it's problematic in the context of blind pick because of how it's effect on the game is so variable based on a team's game plan 2) Riot tends to like to tone down the lopsidedness of these mechanics with heavily defined strengths and weaknesses, and it's actually quite hard to do that with stealth because of how fixed the fundamentals of the mechanic are. Just identifying and expounding on the examples I've previously discussed. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
If you don't like the format of blind pick why not just play draft normals? I think the biggest problem with blind is merely that it's what new players are forced to play so it can teach people new to the game bad habits (like not having to worry about counter-pick and such). I'm not sure how to fix this without ruining Riot's business model though. I would agree that draft normals should be what new players are heavily encouraged to play instead of forcing all of them into blind pick. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On June 10 2013 08:25 overt wrote: Blind pick is fine imo. If you want to try hard you play ranked. If you want to play casually you play draft normals. If you want to just dick around you play blind. I wouldn't want them to change blind purely because it's the game mode I play when I don't care about winning or losing but when I want to just dick around and not try. If you don't like the format of blind pick why not just play draft normals? I think the biggest problem with blind is merely that it's what new players are forced to play so it can teach people new to the game bad habits (like not having to worry about counter-pick and such). I'm not sure how to fix this without ruining Riot's business model though. I would agree that draft normals should be what new players are heavily encouraged to play instead of forcing all of them into blind pick. I dont think new players are going to care about counterpicks one way or the other until they actually start wanting to play more serious. Even if draft mode was the default, it wouldn't really help new players care more about counterpicks anyway if they dont know every/many champions yet. Likewise, banning champions is also not going to make much sense to new players if they dont know much about the champions yet. | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Like srsly. OR just make blink pick in stages like picks in a draft game. Then players are at least more adjusted to the system | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 10 2013 08:25 overt wrote: Blind pick is fine imo. If you want to try hard you play ranked. If you want to play casually you play draft normals. If you want to just dick around you play blind. I wouldn't want them to change blind purely because it's the game mode I play when I don't care about winning or losing but when I want to just dick around and not try. I don't see how being able to see what the other team picks suddenly makes normals more tryhard. The problem is that if you have to balance the games for normal games (which like it or not, Riot has to do to some degree), it does weird things when you have to account for a champion being picked blind and not being able to pick against their weaknesses. | ||
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