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Looks like we're back to status quo. Hope more of you lurkers unburrow and talk with us. :3 If you have any issues or comments about the new design, feel free to PM Neo. | ||
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zodde
Sweden1908 Posts
On June 10 2013 11:36 Shotcoder wrote: It's called a dodge penalty, you get it no matter what even with 0 LP. It doesn't affect your MMR at all, so what's it matter? I know that it's a dodge penalty, and i know it doesn't affect his MMR. Just didn't know you could go negative LP instead of getting demoted. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On June 10 2013 12:05 Nos- wrote: Should one look to trade or farm against a Khazix? I find it hard to whittle him down given his W's sustain and once he hits 6 or when he has jump he becomes very difficult to gank as well. I try to exert some early pressure but if I don't immediately push him out of lane he kind of just sticks around like a cockroach. matchup dependent obviously. but in most cases if you can't get to him before 6 he can wave clear from the safest range known to man. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On June 10 2013 11:55 zodde wrote: I know that it's a dodge penalty, and i know it doesn't affect his MMR. Just didn't know you could go negative LP instead of getting demoted. Yea you can't get demoted from dodging. They never used to show Negative point values, used to jsut show zero then when you got +16 it only gave you 13(as an example) | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
On June 10 2013 12:05 Nos- wrote: Should one look to trade or farm against a Khazix? I find it hard to whittle him down given his W's sustain and once he hits 6 or when he has jump he becomes very difficult to gank as well. I try to exert some early pressure but if I don't immediately push him out of lane he kind of just sticks around like a cockroach. He's really weak against most straight up bruisers before at least level 7, and even then he can't trade with most of them. He needs tear to have enough mana to harass with W and dumping 700 gold early game into a mana item means you are really weak in comparison. If you're talking about mid lane, as with most mages, you can't really stop him from farming. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11877 Posts
On June 10 2013 11:53 OutlaW- wrote: I've kinda touched on this with Darius, who has really strong laning but has no mobility and is pretty bad in teamfights. They were forced to nerf him mainly because of blind pick, because you couldn't simply blindly pick "random top laner" and expect not to get shit on. He had counterpicks that were able to manage him and take out his main strength (thus make him fairly useless and average) and you also couldn't rely on your jungler, Darius' greatest weakness. The fact that blind pick is the default pub mode means that you can't have too much variety in the game, you can't have champions who are really strong at things and really bad at things, because you can't pick around them. If you make a champion with great strength and great weakness, but you don't know how to abuse his weakness and the guy playing him is really good and knows how to abuse his strength, that champion will look disgustingly broken. With Blind pick, you can't pick a champion who happens to be really good vs him and have the game balanced that way. Having hard counters like that is also bad in draft mode, not only in blinds. If one champion is very good against most, but very bad against a few, you can never firstpick that champion, and never firstpick any one of the champions he is very good against unless he is banned. This greatly limits the range of champions that can actually be played if both sides pick rationally. It especially means that this champion will never see any play, because who would be stupid enough to pick one of the champions he shits if the enemy can still pick him afterwards, or picked him before. And who would be so stupid as to firstpick him and get shit on by one of the few champions that shit on him. Generally speaking, those binary relations are not really good design in my opinion, and this has nothing to do with the specifics of blind pick. | ||
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schmutttt
Australia3856 Posts
If they hit his base damage or scaling (Without changing the other) I think they'll crush him. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Every champion needs to be able to outplay every other champion in every matchup. Advantages and disadvantages and things being difficult is good, but strict hard countering is v. bad. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:16 Ketara wrote: Yeah I agree. Having a champion who just straight up counters another champion is bad game design. Every champion needs to be able to outplay every other champion in every matchup. Advantages and disadvantages and things being difficult is good, but strict hard countering is v. bad. Like Wukong vs Lee Sin... xD But in actuality, some counters I dislike being in the game even if there is potential counterplay. Teemo vs someone like Riven, perhaps. It's so incredibly frustrating, even when I manage to win the lane. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:16 Ketara wrote: Yeah I agree. Having a champion who just straight up counters another champion is bad game design. Every champion needs to be able to outplay every other champion in every matchup. Advantages and disadvantages and things being difficult is good, but strict hard countering is v. bad. I disagree. I like the idea of losing lane, but having to control how much you lose, and eventually can out scale or out play later. Sorta like akali in early level (before they gutted her q). Or things vayne and kogmaw in lane. I really like that kind of lane interaction, even though it's unfun to play for most people. Similar to 2v1 lane interactions. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:27 wei2coolman wrote: I disagree. I like the idea of losing lane, but having to control how much you lose, and eventually can out scale or out play later. Sorta like akali in early level (before they gutted her q). Or things vayne and kogmaw in lane. I really like that kind of lane interaction, even though it's unfun to play for most people. Similar to 2v1 lane interactions. A champion who has a disadvantage in lane but scales better into late game if they don't lose badly enough is not being hard countered. A hard counter would be if they cannot fight them in lane at all and also scale worse. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:29 Ketara wrote: A champion who has a disadvantage in lane but scales better into late game if they don't lose badly enough is not being hard countered. There is no hard counter in LoL then. Unless you play nonviable champions. And at worse lane swap is a good strategy. Look at game 2 of eu vs na in all stars. They got out picked in lane, played lane swaps smartly, and negated a lot of tough lanes. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:13 schmutttt wrote: I hope if they nerf jayce they take away his bonus armor/mr from melee form. It'll make him squishier (He already dies real fast if you catch him). If they hit his base damage or scaling (Without changing the other) I think they'll crush him. I think they need to make him less of a ridiculously safe pick. Its impossible to denie Jayce farm. Personally I'd either remove some of his damage from the Shockblast-Accelerationgate combo, or make it deal less damage to minions. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I wouldn't be surprised if Jayce lost his bonus armor/mr in hammer form, since Nid and Elise both lost theirs. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:35 Ketara wrote: Yeah I'd agree, LoL's design team seems to take quite a few pains to make sure that the game doesn't have any really strict hard counters. I wouldn't be surprised if Jayce lost his bonus armor/mr in hammer form, since Nid and Elise both lost theirs. Wrong move imo. They need to just take some of his strength in his ranged form and give it to his melee form. The difference between elise and nidalee was their melee form was deadly good all game long. Jayce's melee form falls off hard. Mostly used as utility for knockback or running away. Would love to see some hits on his ranged form and buffs on his melee form. Perhaps buff his defensive buff in melee form makes players more comfortable staying in melee form longer. Also changing what his melee w does. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:45 wei2coolman wrote: Wrong move imo. They need to just take some of his strength in his ranged form and give it to his melee form. The difference between elise and nidalee was their melee form was deadly good all game long. Jayce's melee form falls off hard. Mostly used as utility for knockback or running away. Would love to see some hits on his ranged form and buffs on his melee form. Perhaps buff his defensive buff in melee form makes players more comfortable staying in melee form longer. Also changing what his melee w does. I disagree. I think the strength of his ranged form is what makes him fun to play and watch, it's his core. If you simply buffed his melee (bruiser) form and nerfed his ranged form, he would be just another bruiser but with a ranged form for small harass. I don't like that. Let Jayce be Jayce, don't just gut his core gameplay aspect.. Champions should have variety, not all be the same blobs that all do the same thing | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:47 OutlaW- wrote: I disagree. I think the strength of his ranged form is what makes him fun to play and watch, it's his core. If you simply buffed his melee (bruiser) form and nerfed his ranged form, he would be just another bruiser but with a ranged form for small harass. I don't like that. Let Jayce be Jayce, don't just gut his core gameplay aspect.. His core game mechanic is to have 6 awesome abilities. But players only really using 4 of them. And only 2 of them consistently in late game. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:45 wei2coolman wrote: Wrong move imo. They need to just take some of his strength in his ranged form and give it to his melee form. The difference between elise and nidalee was their melee form was deadly good all game long. Jayce's melee form falls off hard. Mostly used as utility for knockback or running away. Would love to see some hits on his ranged form and buffs on his melee form. Perhaps buff his defensive buff in melee form makes players more comfortable staying in melee form longer. Also changing what his melee w does. yeah his w seems to be kinda.. randomly there tbh. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:49 wei2coolman wrote: His core game mechanic is to have 6 awesome abilities. But players only really using 4 of them. And only 2 of them consistently in late game. I think his core gameplay is farming ridiculous amounts of money and obliterating people with EQ, and when the situation allows it, go ham on their asses with melee form. You're basically saying that you would like him to become more "jack of all trades, master of none" instead of the fun and exciting niche that he is right now. I disagree. I would rather die than let that happen | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:51 OutlaW- wrote: I think his core gameplay is farming ridiculous amounts of money and obliterating people with EQ, and when the situation allows it, go ham on their asses with melee form. You're basically saying that you would like him to become more "jack of all trades, master of none" instead of the fun and exciting niche that he is right now. I disagree. I would rather die than let that happen That is currently his gameplay. The question is if that is adjustable without ruining Jayce. For example, right now is is too late to change Karthus from his Q,R, and death mechanics. On the other hand, most people would probably accept A change to Zed's ultimate. Additionally, no one has responded to my Eve critique. | ||
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