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On May 14 2013 13:12 TheLink wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 13:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
Because Purple Jungler typically opens Wolves Golems. So bot lane experience is less important than jungler experience. Sounds like this golem advantage isn't really an issue then.
Wolves are also significantly further from bot lane than golems. This is the major difference (plus wolves still have the stupidity of random damage and are harder to kite properly).
Edit, one more thing.
Assuming no laneswaps, the level 3 gank is much more potent on toplane than on botlane.
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On May 14 2013 13:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
Because Purple Jungler typically opens Wolves Golems.
That and the wolves cant be kited. Also, even if Golems stay still and get to auto you whole time, they do same damage but wolves have 25% crit chance can make it much more dangerous. If you unlucky on squishy bot lanes you can lose like half HP each.
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On May 14 2013 13:16 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 13:12 TheLink wrote:On May 14 2013 13:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
Because Purple Jungler typically opens Wolves Golems. So bot lane experience is less important than jungler experience. Sounds like this golem advantage isn't really an issue then. Wolves are also significantly further from bot lane than golems. This is the major difference (plus wolves still have the stupidity of random damage and are harder to kite properly).
Wolves are infinitely easier to fight than golems in my experience, hell you probably even have a jungler there to tank for you. Considering the bot lane helps their jungler fight wolves anyway I doubt the distance is relevent.
Basically all I'm saying is why does the bot lane walk away from wolves to let the jungler finish them off when it should be the other way round.
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On May 14 2013 13:19 TheLink wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 13:16 cLutZ wrote:On May 14 2013 13:12 TheLink wrote:On May 14 2013 13:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
Because Purple Jungler typically opens Wolves Golems. So bot lane experience is less important than jungler experience. Sounds like this golem advantage isn't really an issue then. Wolves are also significantly further from bot lane than golems. This is the major difference (plus wolves still have the stupidity of random damage and are harder to kite properly). Wolves are infinitely easier to fight than golems in my experience, hell you probably even have a jungler there to tank for you. Considering the bot lane helps their jungler fight wolves anyway I doubt the distance is relevent. Basically all I'm saying is why does the bot lane walk away from wolves to let the jungler finish them off when it should be the other way round.
No, they really not.
You can kill Golems taking basically zero damage considering the heal on killing them becauyse their MS is only 350. Wolves MS is 443. You cannot kite the Wolves, need tank them whole time.
That and the wolves have potential to do twice as much damage as golems do. AND they give like 30 less XP if I recall correctly.
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It doesn't matter that much, wolves grant less XP than golems so blue side hits level 2 first anyway and in a standard game blue side doesn't have to help their jungler so they can shove the wave faster/easier to guarantee an even quicker level 2.
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On May 14 2013 13:19 TheLink wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 13:16 cLutZ wrote:On May 14 2013 13:12 TheLink wrote:On May 14 2013 13:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
Because Purple Jungler typically opens Wolves Golems. So bot lane experience is less important than jungler experience. Sounds like this golem advantage isn't really an issue then. Wolves are also significantly further from bot lane than golems. This is the major difference (plus wolves still have the stupidity of random damage and are harder to kite properly). Wolves are infinitely easier to fight than golems in my experience, hell you probably even have a jungler there to tank for you. Considering the bot lane helps their jungler fight wolves anyway I doubt the distance is relevent. Basically all I'm saying is why does the bot lane walk away from wolves to let the jungler finish them off when it should be the other way round.
/Sigh.
Even if you take the wolves EXP, the 3-way shared is a loss for you compared to the 2-way shared of golems for blue.
So if you sharewolves exp you are still behind bot + your jungler is probably behind. Ganking top is preferable to ganking bot if bot is 2v2 so that set you behind again. The jungler can solo wraiths while you duo golems for a wraiths>Smiteless red, blue, wheras if red takes a smiteless his toplane can fall terrible behind if mid/top share wolves while this is going on.
Its a fairly large cascade of lvl 1 advantages if there are no laneswaps.
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On May 14 2013 12:24 iCanada wrote:
Why people stop playing Ahri?
Ahri stronk.
O.O
Her combo feels so rewarding to land. SO many tricks you can pull off with that R too. Flash-R-E coolest engage ever.
EDIT: I remembers, Froggen said she was unreliable damage and easu yo shut down or something, then everyone run like plague.
Iirc, when they nerfed Abyssal range back in S2(August 2012) people jumped ship.
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I know its still an advantage since if you take wolves then your jungler misses out. What I'm trying to say is that the jungler missing out is preferable to the bot lane missing out.
And apparently according to lolwiki wolves don't give less xp than golems, didn't know that. :S
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On May 14 2013 13:39 TheLink wrote:
I know its still an advantage since if you take wolves then your jungler misses out. What I'm trying to say is that the jungler missing out is preferable to the bot lane missing out.
And apparently according to lolwiki wolves don't give less xp than golems, didn't know that. :S
How is the jungler missing out preferable to the bot lane missing out? Where did you get this assumption?
If anything, the jungler hitting level 3~4 at the right timing is much much more important than the bot lane hitting level 2 a creep wave earlier. The jungler has considerably more impact on the laning phase than the bot lane does by far. Why would you want to gimp your jungler just so your bot lane doesnt have to play safe for a few waves?
The jungler's strongest point is hitting level 4 before everyone else on the map because of early game jungle exp then ganking with it. Stealing his wolves makes his first gank that much weaker. The reason why blue side taking golems and/or mid lane taking wraiths before going to lane is fine is because those camps will respawn by the time the jungler gets to them. There is no net loss of exp for anyone, only a gain. If the purple side bot lane jacks wolves exp there is only a net loss in exp for the team.
Golem advantage is an issue for winning bot lane, but shifting that purple side disadvantage onto the jungler is not a solution. It merely moves the problem somewhere else. The only real playstyle fix is to either lane swap or simply play a bot lane composition that isn't hindered by hitting level 2 a wave later. The best fix would be to have Riot make golems spawn at 1:55 for both sides.
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Junglers ganking at lvl 4? Since when? What on earth ...
In like the last 100 games or whatever the jungler's gank timing is lvl 3 and you need no normal monster camps for that.
Actually in most progames the jungle pattern goes:
shared small camp
1. buff
2. buff
gank or camp
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That sounds fair enough. It's not really a net loss since you're only moving xp rather than losing it but I can accept an argument on jungle xp being more important than lane xp.
Purple side can:
Have less xp on bot lane
Have less xp on jungler
Have jungler start red and bot start wolves (this is under my belief that bot lanes can fight wolves easily which was contested earlier)
I just want to show that purple side is making one of these decisions. It isn't automatically a losing bot lane.
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On May 14 2013 13:56 TheLink wrote:
That sounds fair enough. It's not really a net loss since you're only moving xp rather than losing it but I can accept an argument on jungle xp being more important than lane xp.
Purple side can:
Have less xp on bot lane
Have less xp on jungler
Have jungler start red and bot start wolves (this is under my belief that bot lanes can fight wolves easily which was contested earlier)
I just want to show that purple side is making one of these decisions. It isn't automatically a losing bot lane.
It's a net loss. Two people sharing exp generates more exp than 1 person taking the exp. Riot changed this sometime in S1 or S2 I don't quite remember. If you have 3 people sharing the exp, it's so diluted it honestly makes next to no difference.On May 14 2013 13:52 Shikyo wrote:
Junglers ganking at lvl 4? Since when? What on earth ...
In like the last 100 games or whatever the jungler's gank timing is lvl 3 and you need no normal monster camps for that.
Actually in most progames the jungle pattern goes:
shared small camp
1. buff
2. buff
gank or camp
A full clear of every camp then wolves camp one more time gets you level 4 ahead of everyone else on the fastest junglers. On every popular jungler doing just hte buffs with no small camps won't get you level 3. You need at least one small camp on top of both buffs to hit level 3.
In pro games, if there's a lane swap the jungler will usually secure both buffs and fully clear the jungle, hitting level 3 or 4 depending on the game. Then they either sit in the off laner's lane and basically act as a second support for the team OR they sit in the duo lane and shove towers or dive. In the event that there's no lane swap, they clear and gank as normal.
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So then have the AD and Support stand next to the big wolf as its about to die if you like while the jungler backs off, its not particularly hard to manipulate into any combination, although now we're starting to deal with fairly small numbers.
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On May 14 2013 14:04 TheLink wrote:
So then have the AD and Support stand next to the big wolf as its about to die if you like while the jungler backs off, its not particularly hard to manipulate into any combination, although now we're starting to deal with fairly small numbers.
That still doesn't address the fact that you're not solving the problem. All you're doing is shifting the disadvantage to the jungler because now the jungler is one camp behind the enemy jungler, which is still a net loss for the team. Blue side bot lane taking golems is not a net loss for the team because by the time the jungler gets to golems, it will have respawned, making for no time/exp lost.
Not to mention the fact that wolves' aggro patterns are a lot weirder than golems. Because wolves have a significantly higher movement speed, sometimes they don't lose aggro correctly. I'm sure you've had those games where the laner gets too close to wolves and they just chase them around.
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On May 14 2013 14:00 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 13:56 TheLink wrote:
That sounds fair enough. It's not really a net loss since you're only moving xp rather than losing it but I can accept an argument on jungle xp being more important than lane xp.
Purple side can:
Have less xp on bot lane
Have less xp on jungler
Have jungler start red and bot start wolves (this is under my belief that bot lanes can fight wolves easily which was contested earlier)
I just want to show that purple side is making one of these decisions. It isn't automatically a losing bot lane. It's a net loss. Two people sharing exp generates more exp than 1 or 3+ people taking the exp. Riot changed this sometime in S1 or S2 I don't quite remember. Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 13:52 Shikyo wrote:
Junglers ganking at lvl 4? Since when? What on earth ...
In like the last 100 games or whatever the jungler's gank timing is lvl 3 and you need no normal monster camps for that.
Actually in most progames the jungle pattern goes:
shared small camp
1. buff
2. buff
gank or camp A full clear of every camp then wolves camp one more time gets you level 4 ahead of everyone else on the fastest junglers. On every popular jungler doing just hte buffs with no small camps won't get you level 3. You need at least one small camp on top of both buffs to hit level 3.
Thus, as he said, wolf->blue->red or wraith->red->blue.
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On May 14 2013 14:11 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 14:00 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 14 2013 13:56 TheLink wrote:
That sounds fair enough. It's not really a net loss since you're only moving xp rather than losing it but I can accept an argument on jungle xp being more important than lane xp.
Purple side can:
Have less xp on bot lane
Have less xp on jungler
Have jungler start red and bot start wolves (this is under my belief that bot lanes can fight wolves easily which was contested earlier)
I just want to show that purple side is making one of these decisions. It isn't automatically a losing bot lane. It's a net loss. Two people sharing exp generates more exp than 1 or 3+ people taking the exp. Riot changed this sometime in S1 or S2 I don't quite remember. On May 14 2013 13:52 Shikyo wrote:
Junglers ganking at lvl 4? Since when? What on earth ...
In like the last 100 games or whatever the jungler's gank timing is lvl 3 and you need no normal monster camps for that.
Actually in most progames the jungle pattern goes:
shared small camp
1. buff
2. buff
gank or camp A full clear of every camp then wolves camp one more time gets you level 4 ahead of everyone else on the fastest junglers. On every popular jungler doing just hte buffs with no small camps won't get you level 3. You need at least one small camp on top of both buffs to hit level 3. Thus, as he said, wolf->blue->red or wraith->red->blue.
Read his post. He said "In like the last 100 games or whatever the jungler's gank timing is lvl 3 and you need no normal monster camps for that."
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 14 2013 13:08 TheLink wrote:
Why can't purple side bot lane do wolves to help counteract golems?
You can, the thing is that it's almost impossible to get 3 camps down at 1:40 on purple side if you don't laneswap, either your top misses out or your bot does. The only way you can get all 3 is when your middle laner can solo wraiths = Diana/Zed (don't think any other standard middle laners can).
On May 14 2013 13:52 Shikyo wrote:
Junglers ganking at lvl 4? Since when? What on earth ...
Ever since it's standard to either start with a ward on solo lane or let yourself get pushed on for the first few minutes if you go wardless (cloth+5)
On May 14 2013 14:00 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 13:56 TheLink wrote:
That sounds fair enough. It's not really a net loss since you're only moving xp rather than losing it but I can accept an argument on jungle xp being more important than lane xp.
Purple side can:
Have less xp on bot lane
Have less xp on jungler
Have jungler start red and bot start wolves (this is under my belief that bot lanes can fight wolves easily which was contested earlier)
I just want to show that purple side is making one of these decisions. It isn't automatically a losing bot lane. It's a net loss. Two people sharing exp generates more exp than 1 person taking the exp. Riot changed this sometime in S1 or S2 I don't quite remember. If you have 3 people sharing the exp, it's so diluted it honestly makes next to no difference.
You don't share wolves xp with both bot laners if you start wolves, because then you don't hit lvl3 after killing blue and red.
On May 14 2013 14:11 koreasilver wrote:
Thus, as he said, wolf->blue->red or wraith->red->blue.
Golems->Red->Blue on purple side if you don't want to laneswap yet your duo lane needs full wolves xp for whatever reason. Share Golems with your top laner, middle laner gets nothing.
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^ I was almost certain that even if they have it warded(the position is easy to scout / predict btw) ganking / camping is still beneficial.
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On May 14 2013 14:47 Shikyo wrote:
^ I was almost certain that even if they have it warded(the position is easy to scout / predict btw) ganking / camping is still beneficial.
If you're talking about pro games it honestly depends on a ton of factors. If there's a laneswap the jungler absolutely has to show up after taking both buffs and maybe a few small camps because otherwise it opens up that lane to getting dove and/or the tower being pushed down. In the event of no laneswap sometimes the jungler will just pressure the lane, but generally after they clear the jungle and manage to hit level 4.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 14 2013 14:47 Shikyo wrote:
^ I was almost certain that even if they have it warded(the position is easy to scout / predict btw) ganking / camping is still beneficial.
No.
As noted above tohugh, laneswap changes absolutely everything. If lanes are 1v2 2v1, you do things despite wards because there are points at which you can guarantee numbers advantage no matter what.
Actually just try farming and not ganking AT ALL until you hit lvl6 and you'll be surprised just how effective it is. It's not likely to be ideal, but it's probably closer to ideal than ganking over wards is.
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EPT
