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United States47024 Posts
On May 10 2013 08:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I feel that when people say "melee carry" they imagine melee carries in the sense that PA/Void are melee carries in DotA. Champs who are melee, build damage and minimal tank items and go apeshit on the enemy team with big red numbers. This simply doesn't translate over to LoL well because there's no evasion effects since dodge was removed, and perhaps more importantly, there's no BKB.
LoL will probably and should probably never have "melee carries" the way I imagine most people think of it.
Those two heroes are both pretty bad examples because they both generally only build 1 pure damage item till lategame, and primarily build offensive/defensive hybrid items, not unlike bruisers do in LoL. The distinguishing factor is that the damage disparity between pure glass cannon and offensive/defensive hybrid itemization is far higher in LoL due to the vastly greater multiplicative damage scaling in LoL.
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I think the best test of "melee carry" is
Would you build a phantom dancer on him?
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On May 10 2013 08:42 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:40 TheYango wrote:
I think the fundamental reason why the term "carry" gets confused is because people assume it has to refer to a hero with game-ending lategame power when in neither DotA nor LoL is the term used solely for that meaning. In DotA, carry gets used as an overarching term to cover both semi-carries and hard carries. In LoL, half the champs referred to by the term "AP carry" aren't even that strong lategame anyway.
Essentially, they assume "carry" just to mean "hard carry" when it's a broader term than that. Colloquially, "carry" means "builds mainly damage and maybe one defensive item" while "bruiser" means "builds mostly defensive or half defensive items". I mean you call most mages "AP Carries", but Abyssal/Ryali/Zhona builds are often called "AP Bruiser builds".
That's the impression I get when people say they want melee carries. This type of champion simply just can't exist in LoL. The closest thing we had to that kind of melee carry was old Jax with his AD/AP->health passive with dodge.
That idea of a melee carry is imo a holdover from DotA, which was only possible due to tons of evasion/damage reduction effects like evasion, backtrack, illusions, dispersion, etc... on top of BKB. None of those things will ever make their way into LoL in a meaningful way, which means it's just not possible for a melee carry to exist in LoL.On May 10 2013 08:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I feel that when people say "melee carry" they imagine melee carries in the sense that PA/Void are melee carries in DotA. Champs who are melee, build damage and minimal tank items and go apeshit on the enemy team with big red numbers. This simply doesn't translate over to LoL well because there's no evasion effects since dodge was removed, and perhaps more importantly, there's no BKB.
LoL will probably and should probably never have "melee carries" the way I imagine most people think of it. Those two heroes are both pretty bad examples because they both generally only build 1 pure damage item till lategame, and primarily build offensive/defensive hybrid items, not unlike bruisers do in LoL. The distinguishing factor is that the damage disparity between pure glass cannon and offensive/defensive hybrid itemization is far higher in LoL due to the vastly greater multiplicative damage scaling in LoL.
Well the difference is that in LoL, offensive/defensive hybrid items are pretty shit comparatively or incredibly skewed towards defense. In DotA, stuff like Manta is a hybrid offense/defense item, but also increases damage potential for agi carries by a HUGE amount. Same with stuff like Armlet for str carries. Heck, even BKB has a significant offensive potential. You don't have those types of items in LoL. The closest thing you get is probably sunfire cape, and that item's offensive potential is pretty pathetic.
Honestly, I really can't think of any offensive/defensive hybrid items in LoL outside of Sunfire, Atmas, and Frozen Mallet and the latter are almost never built nowadays. Compare that to stuff like Manta, BKB, Armlet and it's no wonder that melee hard carries have an easier time existing in DotA than LoL.
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On May 10 2013 08:45 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:42 Requizen wrote:On May 10 2013 08:40 TheYango wrote:
I think the fundamental reason why the term "carry" gets confused is because people assume it has to refer to a hero with game-ending lategame power when in neither DotA nor LoL is the term used solely for that meaning. In DotA, carry gets used as an overarching term to cover both semi-carries and hard carries. In LoL, half the champs referred to by the term "AP carry" aren't even that strong lategame anyway.
Essentially, they assume "carry" just to mean "hard carry" when it's a broader term than that. Colloquially, "carry" means "builds mainly damage and maybe one defensive item" while "bruiser" means "builds mostly defensive or half defensive items". I mean you call most mages "AP Carries", but Abyssal/Ryali/Zhona builds are often called "AP Bruiser builds". That's the impression I get when people say they want melee carries. This type of champion simply just can't exist in LoL. The closest thing we had to that kind of melee carry was old Jax with his AD/AP->health passive with dodge. That idea of a melee carry is imo a holdover from DotA, which was only possible due to tons of evasion/damage reduction effects like evasion, backtrack, illusions, dispersion, etc... on top of BKB. None of those things will ever make their way into LoL in a meaningful way, which means it's just not possible for a melee carry to exist in LoL. Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:44 TheYango wrote:On May 10 2013 08:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
I feel that when people say "melee carry" they imagine melee carries in the sense that PA/Void are melee carries in DotA. Champs who are melee, build damage and minimal tank items and go apeshit on the enemy team with big red numbers. This simply doesn't translate over to LoL well because there's no evasion effects since dodge was removed, and perhaps more importantly, there's no BKB.
LoL will probably and should probably never have "melee carries" the way I imagine most people think of it. Those two heroes are both pretty bad examples because they both generally only build 1 pure damage item till lategame, and primarily build offensive/defensive hybrid items, not unlike bruisers do in LoL. The distinguishing factor is that the damage disparity between pure glass cannon and offensive/defensive hybrid itemization is far higher in LoL due to the vastly greater multiplicative damage scaling in LoL. Well the difference is that in LoL, offensive/defensive hybrid items are pretty shit comparatively or incredibly skewed towards defense. In DotA, stuff like Manta is a hybrid offense/defense item, but also increases damage potential for agi carries by a HUGE amount. Same with stuff like Armlet for str carries. Heck, even BKB has a significant offensive potential. You don't have those types of items in LoL. The closest thing you get is probably sunfire cape, and that item's offensive potential is pretty pathetic.
Atma's impaler pretty similar to those items, actually.
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what is a melee carry?
a miserable little pile of secrets. but enough talk.
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United States47024 Posts
We've actually had really good offensive/defensive hybrid items, it's just that Riot loves to nerf them. Wit's, Triforce, Cleaver, Atma's, etc.
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On May 10 2013 08:55 TheYango wrote:
We've actually had really good offensive/defensive hybrid items, it's just that Riot loves to nerf them. Wit's, Triforce, Cleaver, Atma's, etc.
I don't really consider Triforce/Cleaver defensive at all the same way I'm sure you wouldn't consider Sange/S&Y defensive items.
But still, my overarching point still stands. Hybrid offense/defense items in LoL are pretty shit comparatively and that definitely hurts being able to make melee carries. On top of that, hybrid offense/defense items in LoL are often skewed towards providing more defensive stats (when they don't they get nerfed hard like old Atma's) whereas in DotA, hybrid offensive/defensive items the skew is less obvious.
It's also probably a perception thing too. Most people (outside of experienced and high level players) probably consider stuff like Manta and Butterfly offensive items even though the defensive capabilities and stats on those items are probably much greater than their offensive capability. Contrast that to perception of LoL items. Most people would probably think of Wit's or Atma's as defensive items rather than offensive.
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On May 10 2013 08:55 TheYango wrote:
We've actually had really good offensive/defensive hybrid items, it's just that Riot loves to nerf them. Wit's, Triforce, Cleaver, Atma's, etc.
I still think Atma's really good. AT 3k HP, you get all your gold worth of stats from the item itself, then a free BF sword.
And seriously, what melee champion doesnt finish the game with over 3k HP every game?
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On May 10 2013 08:57 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:55 TheYango wrote:
We've actually had really good offensive/defensive hybrid items, it's just that Riot loves to nerf them. Wit's, Triforce, Cleaver, Atma's, etc. I still think Atma's really good. AT 3k HP, you get all your gold worth of stats from the item itself, then a free BF sword. And seriously, what melee champion doesnt finish the game with over 3k HP every game?
riven
the sequel to myst
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United States47024 Posts
And again, there's still the issue of multiplicative damage scaling.
Damage scaling in DotA only has 2 reliably purchasable multiplicative scaling stats--damage and attack speed. Crit is a one-off stat available on 1 major item,and likewise armor reduction exists on 2 major items (and armor reduction only exists as flat reduction, so does not scale that well against higher armor values).
LoL has crit as a stackable stat up to 100%, and has % armor reduction as a purchasable stat that stacks favorably with flat reduction. This makes glass cannon builds far more favorable because the difference between 4 damage items and 2-3 damage items is far higher in LoL than DotA.
Furthermore, the presence of magic immunity forces ranged carries to itemize for defensive options as well. You have to have the defensive stats to handle a 10s unpeelable threat as ranged, so rarely are you able to go 100% glass cannon. In a sense, people have got the difference between LoL and DotA wrong--it's not that melees can go glass cannon in DotA and can't in LoL; rather, ranged CAN go glass cannon in LoL but CAN'T in DotA.
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On May 10 2013 08:57 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:55 TheYango wrote:
We've actually had really good offensive/defensive hybrid items, it's just that Riot loves to nerf them. Wit's, Triforce, Cleaver, Atma's, etc. I still think Atma's really good. AT 3k HP, you get all your gold worth of stats from the item itself, then a free BF sword. And seriously, what melee champion doesnt finish the game with over 3k HP every game?
Problem with Atma's is that it's just inferior as the single damage item when compared to Bork and Triforce. People only bought it before the nerfs because Warmogs+Atma's gave silly amounts of hp/armor/AD really early.
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On May 10 2013 08:44 thenexusp wrote:
I think the best test of "melee carry" is
Would you build a phantom dancer on him?
That's a dumb test. In S2 I'd say the test was "do you get a big serious offense item first, and build more offensive/mixed offense-defense items on a typical day?" (Yes, this means Jax Riven and Irelia classify as melee carries.
On May 10 2013 08:59 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:57 iCanada wrote:On May 10 2013 08:55 TheYango wrote:
We've actually had really good offensive/defensive hybrid items, it's just that Riot loves to nerf them. Wit's, Triforce, Cleaver, Atma's, etc. I still think Atma's really good. AT 3k HP, you get all your gold worth of stats from the item itself, then a free BF sword. And seriously, what melee champion doesnt finish the game with over 3k HP every game? riven the sequel to myst
Sure she does. 2200 base health, 800 shield value. Every 5 seconds.
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On May 10 2013 08:04 Amui wrote:
Well mobility creep has taken a firm grasp on this game. That much is for certain.
Also utility creep. This guy has a knockup(stronger than suppress), and a slow. Honestly Riot's design team either needs to tone down every champ in the game, or else they'd need to rework a large majority of the older champs to maintain usefulness.
Some of the old champs are awesome. Well specialized. You could put sion's ult on any other champ and they'd turn into an ad carry. They just have high mana costs.
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Man, he just looks goofy...he's like a butterfly? Also giant fucking hands is Riots new triangle feet.
Aside from the look, this champ is stale as shit. His ult man....uhhhh wut? I fell asleep reading the description...
Morello: Alright folks, Aatrox is out in three days, lets get all our work together and polished up.
Design Team: No problem, we're just finishing up a in-depth analysis of whether or not a generic line skillshot slow combined with a generic jump will be too disruptive to the game.
Morello: Rightly so, we can't be too careful when working with such revolutionary concepts.
Design Team: Here you go, a write-up of his full and completed skillset, polished to a dull sheen!
Morello: Awesome, this all looks extremely balanced. Great work folks. Next on the agenda is that new Teemo skin the community has been clamoring for.
-Morello flips through the file-
Morello: Uh.....Wait up a second, Q...W...E... did you leave his ult paperwork on your desk? We're gonna need that.
-Designers frantically make eye contact and exchange desperate hand signals-
Design Team: ...fuck
Morello: Oh lord no.
Design Team: ...
Morello: Jesus Christ, there's no time to put together and test an interesting and unique ultimate at this point! This calls for emergency measures! C'mon team...think, what does everyone like on an ult?
Designer: Erm...maybe like a several layer spellshield, but as each layer is broken Aatrox receives temporary buffs or creates a slowing explosion, making him difficult to kite and requiring teamwork and decision making to make sure...
Morello: Don't be retarded.
The Rest of the Design Team: AOE damage in a big circle!
Morello: Great Scott! We've pulled it off again! Brilliant! Write that down on a sheet of notebook paper and we're good to go! Do you have a pencil?....No, wait, lets toss a little zest into the mix! What are the most boring champion steroids in the game?
Design Team: Attack Speed Buffs!
Morello: Oh god its beautiful. Ship him lads!
-Design Team begins to load the skill write-up into the Programmatron 3000-
-Morello begins to walk back to his throne, then violently turns and sprints back into the design office-
Morello: No, wait...stop! I've had a stroke of genius! Hear THIS! Not just any damage in a big circle.........Percent health damage!
-The Design Team cowers in fear-
Design Team: We're so sorry sir....Its too late, the programmatron is already begun to modulate. It cannot be stopped!
-The manic grin fades from Morello's face-
Morello: Fine then...we'll just have to put it on the next champion...
Morello: ...and the one after that.
Morello: ...and then the next four to eight that follow
-Morello begins to walk away again, mumbling to himself under his breath as he goes.-
Morello Champions....champions with four...four skills that deal percent damage...no...five....five skills....ranged mode ...........and free armor pen...................manaless.............resets.....................
At least that's what I imagine happened.
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On May 10 2013 09:00 TheYango wrote:
And again, there's still the issue of multiplicative damage scaling.
Damage scaling in DotA only has 2 reliably purchasable multiplicative scaling stats--damage and attack speed. Crit is a one-off stat available on 1 major item,and likewise armor reduction exists on 2 major items (and armor reduction only exists as flat reduction, so does not scale that well against higher armor values).
LoL has crit as a stackable stat up to 100%, and has % armor reduction as a purchasable stat that stacks favorably with flat reduction. This makes glass cannon builds far more favorable because the difference between 4 damage items and 2-3 damage items is far higher in LoL than DotA.
Furthermore, the presence of magic immunity forces ranged carries to itemize for defensive options as well. You have to have the defensive stats to handle a 10s unpeelable threat as ranged, so rarely are you able to go 100% glass cannon. In a sense, people have got the difference between LoL and DotA wrong--it's not that melees can go glass cannon in DotA and can't in LoL; rather, ranged CAN go glass cannon in LoL but CAN'T in DotA.
Possibly, but without the ability to go glass cannon for ranged carries teamfights would like never end lategame as some bruisers smash their faces against each other.
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On May 10 2013 09:18 sob3k wrote:
-Design Team begins to load the skill write-up into the Programmatron 3000-
While funny, as a programmer, never joke about this. If I had a machine that did this for me, I would be... well unemployed, but also happy.
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On May 10 2013 09:25 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 09:18 sob3k wrote:
-Design Team begins to load the skill write-up into the Programmatron 3000-
While funny, as a programmer, never joke about this. If I had a machine that did this for me, I would be... well unemployed, but also happy.
Don't joke about what makes Req... happy?
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Well, I originally called him a melee carry in the sense that the description said he was an auto-attacker.
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On May 10 2013 09:33 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 09:25 Requizen wrote:On May 10 2013 09:18 sob3k wrote:
-Design Team begins to load the skill write-up into the Programmatron 3000-
While funny, as a programmer, never joke about this. If I had a machine that did this for me, I would be... well unemployed, but also happy. Don't joke about what makes Req... happy?
I want to press a button and have all of my busy work completed QQ
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Blood Thirst grants Aatrox plenty of sustain as he tangos with enemy initiators and tanks.
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EPT
