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On May 10 2013 08:21 MoonBear wrote:
% costs have a problem where you simply buy regen and not a lot of hp and your regen completely crushes the hp costs and again it becomes negligible. Fundamentally hp costs are either negligible or absolutely painful to have and there is very little middle ground (and if it exists, it is a very small strip of land between two steep trenches). I am leaning towards the idea that hp costs are simply a limiting resource mechanic for early-game and act as an inconvenience mid-late.
That being said, I still think Aatrox's passive very clever in design and form. I hope the numbers are also good so it becomes skill rewarding to chain skills into the passive in fights.
I think he has scope for being a good carry but the fundamental issue of getting into melee range and not getting 5-man focused, cc'ed and exploded remains. Hm.
That's kind of moot because health regen does not help you in teamfight - health and/or resistance does. The whole point of % health is that flat health cost makes you more tanky AND your spells relatively cheaper.
On May 10 2013 08:22 Mondeezy wrote:
Can someone explain his passive? Is it essentially a morde shield type deal that only procs on death?
If so, that sounds awesome, and he looks awesome.
It's like what Requizen said. In lane you use your health-costing abilities to build up a reserve, which will be used up and heal you when you die. It's a little similar to Mordekaiser's shield.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 10 2013 08:22 Mondeezy wrote:
Can someone explain his passive? Is it essentially a morde shield type deal that only procs on death?
If so, that sounds awesome, and he looks awesome.
You use skills and store up a buffer of hp. When your hp drops to 0, you instead insta-revive with that buffer of hp. So you chain skills again, build up buffer again. Die cause you're low and get revived again. Chain skills again and proceed to tear through your enemies. With something like a BT or BotRK you can heal as well too and keep fighting. It is very flavourful and is in line with his lore and the idea of coming back from the brink of defeat to fight and crush your enemies.
That is ofc best case scenario.
On May 10 2013 08:24 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:21 MoonBear wrote:
% costs have a problem where you simply buy regen and not a lot of hp and your regen completely crushes the hp costs and again it becomes negligible. Fundamentally hp costs are either negligible or absolutely painful to have and there is very little middle ground (and if it exists, it is a very small strip of land between two steep trenches). I am leaning towards the idea that hp costs are simply a limiting resource mechanic for early-game and act as an inconvenience mid-late.
That being said, I still think Aatrox's passive very clever in design and form. I hope the numbers are also good so it becomes skill rewarding to chain skills into the passive in fights.
I think he has scope for being a good carry but the fundamental issue of getting into melee range and not getting 5-man focused, cc'ed and exploded remains. Hm. That's kind of moot because health regen does not help you in teamfight - health and/or resistance does. The whole point of % health is that flat health cost makes you more tanky AND your spells relatively cheaper.
So you buy resistances and enjoy the HP regen at the same time I assume. See HP regen as like a perma-Irelia's W and the whole idea of building resistance stats. His passive adds a shield-from-death effect too so regen, lifesteal and resistances makes sense here too.
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On May 10 2013 08:24 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:22 Mondeezy wrote:
Can someone explain his passive? Is it essentially a morde shield type deal that only procs on death?
If so, that sounds awesome, and he looks awesome. You use skills and store up a buffer of hp. When your hp drops to 0, you instead insta-revive with that buffer of hp. So you chain skills again, build up buffer again. Die cause you're low and get revived again. Chain skills again and proceed to tear through your enemies. With something like a BT or BotRK you can heal as well too and keep fighting. It is very flavourful and is in line with his lore and the idea of coming back from the brink of defeat to fight and crush your enemies. That is ofc best case scenario.
I'm pretty sure there's going to be an internal CD so you can't chain proc it in a fight.
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Going to suck balls if it there an internal CD. That would mean he's basically copy paste champion with zero thought :<
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On May 10 2013 08:24 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:22 Mondeezy wrote:
Can someone explain his passive? Is it essentially a morde shield type deal that only procs on death?
If so, that sounds awesome, and he looks awesome. You use skills and store up a buffer of hp. When your hp drops to 0, you instead insta-revive with that buffer of hp. So you chain skills again, build up buffer again. Die cause you're low and get revived again. Chain skills again and proceed to tear through your enemies. With something like a BT or BotRK you can heal as well too and keep fighting. It is very flavourful and is in line with his lore and the idea of coming back from the brink of defeat to fight and crush your enemies. That is ofc best case scenario. Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:24 Sufficiency wrote:On May 10 2013 08:21 MoonBear wrote:
% costs have a problem where you simply buy regen and not a lot of hp and your regen completely crushes the hp costs and again it becomes negligible. Fundamentally hp costs are either negligible or absolutely painful to have and there is very little middle ground (and if it exists, it is a very small strip of land between two steep trenches). I am leaning towards the idea that hp costs are simply a limiting resource mechanic for early-game and act as an inconvenience mid-late.
That being said, I still think Aatrox's passive very clever in design and form. I hope the numbers are also good so it becomes skill rewarding to chain skills into the passive in fights.
I think he has scope for being a good carry but the fundamental issue of getting into melee range and not getting 5-man focused, cc'ed and exploded remains. Hm. That's kind of moot because health regen does not help you in teamfight - health and/or resistance does. The whole point of % health is that flat health cost makes you more tanky AND your spells relatively cheaper. So you buy resistances and enjoy the HP regen at the same time I assume. See HP regen as like a perma-Irelia's W and the whole idea of building resistance stats. His passive adds a shield-from-death effect too so regen, lifesteal and resistances makes sense here too.
I doubt you can infinite sustain yourself like that lol. That would be totally stupid.
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On May 10 2013 08:27 Numy wrote:
Going to suck balls if it there an internal CD. That would mean he's basically copy paste champion with zero thought :<
It says right in the description that there is a "base amount" that the pool can't go below, so if there was no ICD you would literally never ever die.
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On May 10 2013 08:28 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:27 Numy wrote:
Going to suck balls if it there an internal CD. That would mean he's basically copy paste champion with zero thought :< It says right in the description that there is a "base amount" that the pool can't go below, so if there was no ICD you would literally never ever die.
I was about to edit it to be high internal CD, missed a word sorry. I mean like the 5 minute stuff you see instead of say 10 seconds or something cool.
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On May 10 2013 08:26 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:24 MoonBear wrote:On May 10 2013 08:22 Mondeezy wrote:
Can someone explain his passive? Is it essentially a morde shield type deal that only procs on death?
If so, that sounds awesome, and he looks awesome. You use skills and store up a buffer of hp. When your hp drops to 0, you instead insta-revive with that buffer of hp. So you chain skills again, build up buffer again. Die cause you're low and get revived again. Chain skills again and proceed to tear through your enemies. With something like a BT or BotRK you can heal as well too and keep fighting. It is very flavourful and is in line with his lore and the idea of coming back from the brink of defeat to fight and crush your enemies. That is ofc best case scenario. I'm pretty sure there's going to be an internal CD so you can't chain proc it in a fight.
This is what I initially thought, but I think so long as he doesn't go invincible for a while (like GA) when his passive procs, it doesn't matter that much - considering his passive doesn't actually "heal" him instantly, merely refunding a buffer he has built up over time.
And I believe the "base amount" stays there once you have achieved it (like how you don't decay below 1400 Elo once you have achieved it). I am pretty sure you start the buffer at 0.
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Aatrox reminds me of this guy: http://honwiki.net/wiki/Maliken in both kit and visual design. Except Maliken's first skill is somewhat split into Aatrox's Q and E.
I'm of the same opinion as MoonBear with health costs. At some point, items be it raw HP or lifesteal/damage/regen make health costs neglible. In all-ins and teamfights health costs usually equates to just cooldowns. I don't think that it's entirely possible to make health costs significant throughout the game and not just restrictive early the way the game is designed. My earlier suggestion of making health costs scale based off of the damage dealt by the skill gets nullified by enough lifesteal/spellvamp. The way itemization exists in LoL I think health costs are only ever going to a limiting factor in lane.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 10 2013 08:13 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 07:58 Sufficiency wrote:On May 10 2013 07:56 Slayer91 wrote:On May 10 2013 07:42 Sufficiency wrote:He's as much a melee carry as Riven or Garen. He is a fighter, for sure. I will assume his passive has some sort of cooldown? how the fuck is garen anywhere close to a melee carry or anywhere close to riven (i guess they both have executish ults?) Neither Riven nor Garen are melee carries. Neither is this guy. lux and diana arent melee carries either. what's your point? i thought the argument would be relating riven and garen as hard scaling melees who can snowball but garen barely scales at all damage wise meanwhile riven hyper scales so its like complete opposite champs
Please no melee carry discussion.
The discussion goes nowhere because people can't even agree on what a "carry" is, let alone a "melee carry".
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Can't we just say melee carry = brusier and be done with it. Just because some champions lean more towards damage than defense or utility doesn't mean they aren't in that subset.
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I wonder how negligible they are going to make his costs. I would appreciate if they make them fairly crippling so we can finally have a new and interesting power curve.
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On May 10 2013 08:28 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:27 Numy wrote:
Going to suck balls if it there an internal CD. That would mean he's basically copy paste champion with zero thought :< It says right in the description that there is a "base amount" that the pool can't go below, so if there was no ICD you would literally never ever die.
Honestly I was hoping that there would be no internal CD but rather a threshold which you have to pass in order for it to activate.
Example:
Threshold for activation is say 300 hp in Blood Well passive. If you store up 300 hp in your passive and die, it'll activate and you "res" at 300 hp instantly. If you store up less than that, the passive doesn't activate and you just simply die. This way, you can get multiple Blood Well activations in a fight provided that you're not focused down, but if you're cc'd and/or focused you can't charge up your passive enough to use it multiple times.
IMO that's a lot more flavorful and provides more interaction than just an internal cd.
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On May 10 2013 08:29 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:28 Requizen wrote:On May 10 2013 08:27 Numy wrote:
Going to suck balls if it there an internal CD. That would mean he's basically copy paste champion with zero thought :< It says right in the description that there is a "base amount" that the pool can't go below, so if there was no ICD you would literally never ever die. I was about to edit it to be high internal CD, missed a word sorry. I mean like the 5 minute stuff you see instead of say 10 seconds or something cool.
Similar effects include:
Volibear passive: 120 seconds
Trynd Ult: 90 seconds (baseline at max rank)
Anivia passive: 240 seconds
Zac Passive: 300 seconds
Kayle Ult: 60 seconds (baseline at max rank)
Of course none of them are exactly the same, but you get the idea. Voli's is probably the closest (being a passive that procs immediately without needing to activate), so 1-2 minutes ICD is what I'm expecting.
On the other hand, since he's expected to be a melee carry that builds few defensive items, it could be something like 30 seconds to encourage squishy builds with aggressive playstyle.
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On May 10 2013 08:16 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 08:13 iCanada wrote:
SO, maybe its just because I suck at not jungling... But god damn that Aatrox guy sounds like a jungler.
The ganks you could pull off with that kit make me excited... tank all the damages, dive all the towers, give none of the fucks. It sounds to me like his E and Q are more utility than damage oriented, so as just an auto champion his clear would be slow as hell, not to mention fairly dangerous if you don't start with W and/or use W too much in early levels.
Not necessarily...
Fiora's clear for example isn't too slow. In fact I'd say Aatrox kit prolly way better at clearing than fiora's kit even. People would jungle fiora if she had the potential to gank like this guys kit does.
Hell, even Volibear is pretty well a straight Auto attacking jungler, he played in pro games all the time.
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On May 10 2013 08:34 Numy wrote:
Can't we just say melee carry = brusier and be done with it. Just because some champions lean more towards damage than defense or utility doesn't mean they aren't in that subset.
I feel that when people say "melee carry" they imagine melee carries in the sense that PA/Void are melee carries in DotA. Champs who are melee, build damage and minimal tank items and go apeshit on the enemy team with big red numbers. This simply doesn't translate over to LoL well because there's no evasion effects since dodge was removed, and perhaps more importantly, there's no BKB.
LoL will probably and should probably never have "melee carries" the way I imagine most people think of it.
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"excels as a duelist and team fighter", so, excels at fighting?
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United States47024 Posts
I think the fundamental reason why the term "carry" gets confused is because people assume it has to refer to a hero with game-ending lategame power when in neither DotA nor LoL is the term used solely for that meaning. In DotA, carry gets used as an overarching term to cover both semi-carries and hard carries. In LoL, half the champs referred to by the term "AP carry" aren't even that strong lategame anyway.
Essentially, they assume "carry" just to mean "hard carry" when it's a broader term than that.
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On May 10 2013 08:40 TheYango wrote:
I think the fundamental reason why the term "carry" gets confused is because people assume it has to refer to a hero with game-ending lategame power when in neither DotA nor LoL is the term used solely for that meaning. In DotA, carry gets used as an overarching term to cover both semi-carries and hard carries. In LoL, half the champs referred to by the term "AP carry" aren't even that strong lategame anyway.
Essentially, they assume "carry" just to mean "hard carry" when it's a broader term than that.
Colloquially, "carry" means "builds mainly damage and maybe one defensive item" while "bruiser" means "builds mostly defensive or half defensive items". I mean you call most mages "AP Carries", but Abyssal/Ryali/Zhona builds are often called "AP Bruiser builds".
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On May 10 2013 08:32 Ryuu314 wrote:Aatrox reminds me of this guy: http://honwiki.net/wiki/Maliken in both kit and visual design. Except Maliken's first skill is somewhat split into Aatrox's Q and E. I'm of the same opinion as MoonBear with health costs. At some point, items be it raw HP or lifesteal/damage/regen make health costs neglible. In all-ins and teamfights health costs usually equates to just cooldowns. I don't think that it's entirely possible to make health costs significant throughout the game and not just restrictive early the way the game is designed. My earlier suggestion of making health costs scale based off of the damage dealt by the skill gets nullified by enough lifesteal/spellvamp. The way itemization exists in LoL I think health costs are only ever going to a limiting factor in lane.
<3'd Maliken, he was so scary when fed lol.
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EPT
