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On May 08 2013 16:51 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 16:39 kainzero wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. i dunno, one of my problems with trolls and feeders is that it does limit the improvement you can make, because it is a team game. i really despise afkers, whether it's on my team or on the other team. especially if i am in the lane where they afk. i don't think 2v1 vs adc will teach me anything and after that it's just 10-15 minutes of more pain till it's over. if a lane does bad, i don't really mind. but if a lane intentionally feeds then yeah, it is frustrating and it does impose a limit on your improvement. i used to think it was acceptable but really, 20 minutes is a long time. It doesn't limit the improvement you can make. You say that playing 1v2 as AD Carry teaches you nothing, but how can that be true? It's an extreme case of playing from behind. I think you're mistaking the words fun and improvement. Not dying and getting all the CS you can while being so much behind is definitely a helpful skill to have, no? And if you die, it's your fault, not the afk's. I see plenty of people blame their support for going to ward while they die and this is the same thing. The afk may have put you in a bad situation, but in my opinion it's bad situations where you need your skill the most (and thus where you can improve it the most). A lane intentionally feeding doesn't hinder your improvement, because winning or losing has nothing to do with improvement. Somebody feeding isn't in your control. I understand that it sucks having to play like a bitch and just wait for 20 minutes until your team can surrender, but that has nothing to do with improvement. If you end the game at 20 minutes with a 0/0/0 score (provided you play it out normally, of course) while your team is 0-20, you can be happy in knowing that you did all you could in the situation.
You're finally getting it. I know I'm improving during troll games. I just want my pound of flesh. And the current system isn't close. If it was I wouldn't want that as much as I do (not to mention the games where I sigh as I face a clear feeder).
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On May 08 2013 17:02 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 16:51 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 16:39 kainzero wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. i dunno, one of my problems with trolls and feeders is that it does limit the improvement you can make, because it is a team game. i really despise afkers, whether it's on my team or on the other team. especially if i am in the lane where they afk. i don't think 2v1 vs adc will teach me anything and after that it's just 10-15 minutes of more pain till it's over. if a lane does bad, i don't really mind. but if a lane intentionally feeds then yeah, it is frustrating and it does impose a limit on your improvement. i used to think it was acceptable but really, 20 minutes is a long time. It doesn't limit the improvement you can make. You say that playing 1v2 as AD Carry teaches you nothing, but how can that be true? It's an extreme case of playing from behind. I think you're mistaking the words fun and improvement. Not dying and getting all the CS you can while being so much behind is definitely a helpful skill to have, no? And if you die, it's your fault, not the afk's. I see plenty of people blame their support for going to ward while they die and this is the same thing. The afk may have put you in a bad situation, but in my opinion it's bad situations where you need your skill the most (and thus where you can improve it the most). A lane intentionally feeding doesn't hinder your improvement, because winning or losing has nothing to do with improvement. Somebody feeding isn't in your control. I understand that it sucks having to play like a bitch and just wait for 20 minutes until your team can surrender, but that has nothing to do with improvement. If you end the game at 20 minutes with a 0/0/0 score (provided you play it out normally, of course) while your team is 0-20, you can be happy in knowing that you did all you could in the situation. You're finally getting it. I know I'm improving during troll games. I just want my pound of flesh. And the current system isn't close. If it was I wouldn't want that as much as I do (not to mention the games where I sigh as I face a clear feeder).
That concept is alien to me because I have no fun regardless of whether or not there are trolls in my game. My mental issues aside, though, yours and his are 2 different conversations.
You made it clear that fun is the thing you're arguing for, but kainzero is trying to argue that trolls hinder his improvement, which is something I simply have to disagree with.
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On May 08 2013 16:39 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. i dunno, one of my problems with trolls and feeders is that it does limit the improvement you can make, because it is a team game. i really despise afkers, whether it's on my team or on the other team. especially if i am in the lane where they afk. i don't think 2v1 vs adc will teach me anything and after that it's just 10-15 minutes of more pain till it's over. if a lane does bad, i don't really mind. but if a lane intentionally feeds then yeah, it is frustrating and it does impose a limit on your improvement. i used to think it was acceptable but really, 20 minutes is a long time.
You improve your laning pretty much the same irrespective of whether your bot lane is 10/0 or 0/10. You might play differently, and make different decisions, but improvement is not dependent on your other laners.
The mindset should be how can I play this such that my team has the best shot at winning. If you think that you've lost already, then there's nothing that can save you.
I had a game recently where enemy rumble mid was so fed that he was solo pushing inner mid at 10 min because he could 1v2 mid+jungler. I'm mad that my mid and jungler failed so hard, but that doesn't change the fact that I do my absolute best to try to win top lane, and try play my lane as well as I can. Improving isn't so much getting better as reducing mistakes.
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Now I know this might just be me, but I play ranked to win. Having a double mid in my experience dramatically decreases your chance of winning.
If you want to break the meta, fine, but do that in normals. And besides that, if one person in champ select wants to break the meta and four don't, I think the one should listen to the four. (in ranked, that is)
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On May 08 2013 17:23 Fildun wrote:
Now I know this might just be me, but I play ranked to win. Having a double mid in my experience dramatically decreases your chance of winning.
If you want to break the meta, fine, but do that in normals. And besides that, if one person in champ select wants to break the meta and four don't, I think the one should listen to the four. (in ranked, that is)
That's the issue with ranked; you shouldn't be playing to win. You should be playing to get better, and as you get better you will win more.
No one is doubting the fact that an asshat that calls "mid or feed" is a giant douchebag; especially if they're lower pick. But, the issue is that the game being played isn't being wasted. You can still improve as a player, even if all four of your teammates are trolling. Yes it sucks that you lost, but that's not the point.
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On May 08 2013 16:51 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 16:39 kainzero wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. i dunno, one of my problems with trolls and feeders is that it does limit the improvement you can make, because it is a team game. i really despise afkers, whether it's on my team or on the other team. especially if i am in the lane where they afk. i don't think 2v1 vs adc will teach me anything and after that it's just 10-15 minutes of more pain till it's over. if a lane does bad, i don't really mind. but if a lane intentionally feeds then yeah, it is frustrating and it does impose a limit on your improvement. i used to think it was acceptable but really, 20 minutes is a long time. It doesn't limit the improvement you can make. You say that playing 1v2 as AD Carry teaches you nothing, but how can that be true? It's an extreme case of playing from behind. I think you're mistaking the words fun and improvement. Not dying and getting all the CS you can while being so much behind is definitely a helpful skill to have, no? And if you die, it's your fault, not the afk's. I see plenty of people blame their support for going to ward while they die and this is the same thing. The afk may have put you in a bad situation, but in my opinion it's bad situations where you need your skill the most (and thus where you can improve it the most). A lane intentionally feeding doesn't hinder your improvement, because winning or losing has nothing to do with improvement. Somebody feeding isn't in your control. I understand that it sucks having to play like a bitch and just wait for 20 minutes until your team can surrender, but that has nothing to do with improvement. If you end the game at 20 minutes with a 0/0/0 score (provided you play it out normally, of course) while your team is 0-20, you can be happy in knowing that you did all you could in the situation.
the thing is is that playing 1v2 as ad carry doesn't teach you anything. in a real game you will have a full team of 5. hence why i say play arranged 5s. and ketara now has 3 other people who are willing to play arranged 5s.
i don't see a point in playing with a handicap and thinking it's going to improve you that much. i can think of a billion analogies but i hate arguing in analogies. there's a difference between isolating and practicing a skill and playing with a handicap. the latter is not always helpful, particularly if it's never applicable.
similarly if i was 2v1 because their adc/support dced, it's the same. i'm not improving. you can say "oh well you get to improve your last hitting!" but i can perfect last hit anyway, it's last hitting while balancing positioning between a dual lane that's the problem. and if i'm support then i just play up and zone out. it's boring because i get nothing out of it.
i've made giant strides in my gameplay when i stopped focusing on solo queue and instead played with friends in normals or ranked 5s. a lot of it has to do with the fact that i can eliminate those games with trolls/afkers. even if i have low skilled bronze friends i still learn way more than when i solo queue. even if we have "troll" picks.
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On May 08 2013 13:56 sung_moon wrote:
I don't get it, I read the LoLWiki page concerning Elder Lizard, and it seems like despite what it says, almost every DoT will also apply the Lizard DoT as well.
Should I start building this on jungle Sej now?
Sejuani doesn't have any dots.
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On May 08 2013 18:02 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 13:56 sung_moon wrote:
I don't get it, I read the LoLWiki page concerning Elder Lizard, and it seems like despite what it says, almost every DoT will also apply the Lizard DoT as well.
Should I start building this on jungle Sej now? Sejuani doesn't have any dots.
Is Sej W not a dot?
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On May 08 2013 18:04 Dusty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 18:02 Gahlo wrote:On May 08 2013 13:56 sung_moon wrote:
I don't get it, I read the LoLWiki page concerning Elder Lizard, and it seems like despite what it says, almost every DoT will also apply the Lizard DoT as well.
Should I start building this on jungle Sej now? Sejuani doesn't have any dots. Is Sej W not a dot?
It's a Pulsed AoE, not a DoT. Same reason why hecarim W applies lizard elder.
DoT would be malz E, swain E/Q, ignite etc.
Actually reading over the description the definition of DoT is really, really arbitrary.
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What's the site that lets you see look up player stats while the match is running? Like shows you both sides MMR and what not.
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On May 08 2013 16:18 cLutZ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 08 2013 16:09 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 16:07 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 15:53 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 15:45 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 15:35 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 15:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. Silly, People aren't mad about trolls, they are mad about the inability to instantly punish trolls, especially champ select trolls (although trolls do present the problem that it is unsatisfying to lose with a troll on your team, AND unsatisfying to win against a troll). Lets say I troll you. You can Screenshot>Dodge>Report (which is much more lengthy of a process than people pretend, plus you get a generic response), or you can Play > Report. Both are incredibly unsatisfying. A pertinent/accurate analogy is if you were the owner of a 7/11, and people would steal from you, and you know it, and you have a video camera system. But your options are: Walk away then call the police, or get in the car with them then call the police when they get home. But either way you don't know if they go to jail, and there is a significant chance that the judge/jury are only going to see your car ride with the perp if you choose option 2. By the way, if you choose option one you have to pay the government a random $1500 fine. I was more responding to Ketara, who said that he plays the game to improve and that trolls are making him unable to do that. But to adress you. What exactly do you classify trolls? How do you want to instantly punish trolls? Say you pick mid as first pick and third pick picks another mid laner. Do you instantly ban him for trolling? This game is unrewarding for innovation as it is, do you really want to enforce positions in soloq? Trolls and feeders will always exist in mobas. (They exist everywhere but they have much more effect here, especially with how impossible it is to carry 4v5 when you compare it to say, dota) There's nothing Riot can do to magically remove all the trolls, and playing with/against trolls isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem with the correct mindset. I have carried many "trolls" and I also have been carried by "trolls" who forced the first pick to support and went mid lane. I've also won plenty of games with duo jungle and bottom lanes like Alistar Mundo. All this in ranked. Should we really be banning everyone like this immediately? I don't think so. #1. The obvious answer is to implement Champion select reporting. You get the pre-game catharsis. Secondly in postgame you would get the same ability to report + the ability to un-report (so if the troll ended up just being azingy-like, everything is good). The additional bonus is people who troll pregame get double reported. This alone solves minimum 50% of the problems. #2. Once #1 is implemented, 2 people + report, and you dodge, no queue penalty. #3. You get a weekly email with the results of your reports (should have been implemented years ago). #4. (Just a comment) Just because someone carried a game by making the firstpick Syndra support, then lastpicked Master Yi and got 4 Pentakills, does not mean that person should not be banned. Dominate got banned FROM THE LCS for ingame trolling, which is laughably inconsequential compared to champ select trolling. Dominate did not get banned for trolling. He got banned for verbal abuse. Check your facts.. And no, that Yi doesn't deserve to be banned. Verbal abuse is inconsequential. Mute = completely negated. The Yi absolutely deserves to be banned as well. Its not like he said, Mid please, he said "Mid or Feed". Simply saying that, or anything similar is the kind of emotional terrorism that makes a significant % of the LoL population avoid SoloQ in the first place (Hint, one of our mods on TL plays almost exclusively ranked 5s). On May 08 2013 15:55 wei2coolman wrote:On May 08 2013 15:54 Amui wrote:On May 08 2013 15:47 wei2coolman wrote:
The problem with that is that it discourages meta changing champ selects. I don't have a problem with meta-changing champ selects. That's something to be expected, especially at the lower and higher ends of soloq elo. I do have a problem with people forcing higher picks out of their selected role though, because the draft order is there for a reason. 12 year olds shouldn't get mid anyways when higher pick decides they want mid. That goes without saying; but if such a tool was implemented it would be used to report players who want to do shit like fiddle support; or morgana support, and shit like that. A possible issue. However, I play morg support all the time to no flaming, unless I suck. Then I get flamed for sucking, but that is no different than any other time I play terribly. I never said I agreed with Dom's ban, but that was what he was banned for. Yi didn't necessarily have to say anything. He could have been silent all game, picked Yi and said mid. Now your Syndra has a choice, double mid or let Yi mid. Yi isn't really trolling, just giving your team a choice. The question is, do you make people choosing to go duo mid a bannable offense? Because I wouldn't (and apparently Riot, too, because they haven't said anything about it) If people don't have the skin to play soloq, then they shouldn't. There is nothing wrong with playing just ranked 5s or draft normals (or even blind normals). Ranked is for people who take the game seriously and want to tryhard. Strong feelings overall and about wanting to play your best role is natural. If you want to break the meta the BOP is on you. You can't be silent while doing it. If the Syndra thinks her experience was significantly affected, then she should report. 1 report is not a ban, of course, neither is 2. Plus, do not forget the essential option of "unreporting" in postgame. If your Yi bro was friendly and carried, would not said Syndra do that? If she did not, and people kept pardoning her reports would be devalued like Riot already says that they do. Edit, and by the way. The only non-meta things that have ever worked in Ranked games I have played are: 1. Things people talked about and said "we should try" in champ select. and 2. No AD Carry bot (and always something that is a great kill lane like Panth + Jarvan).
Why would the outcome affect your judgement?
So if I push someone out of a plane and he randomly survives I am home free? No guilt?
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On May 08 2013 18:44 Requizen wrote:
What's the site that lets you see look up player stats while the match is running? Like shows you both sides MMR and what not.
Should be elophant.You have to download it from their site and run it before you start league though.
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Sounds like you're talking about LoLNexus.com - I don't use it cuz it feels like cheating sometimes, lol (shows you their runes/masteries).
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tfw you are 8-2 in your last 10 ranked games and know that inevitable loss streak is coming
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On May 08 2013 19:13 Dusty wrote:
tfw you are 8-2 in your last 10 ranked games and know that inevitable loss streak is coming
I'm in the losing phase right now. I went from Gold V to Gold II easily, only lost one promo series. Now I think I'm like 4 - 13 ~ the last 3-4 days? Lol. Think it's my worst session of losing in awhile.
edit: OMG I PLAYED WITH YOU BEFORE. WITH JENNY. YOU WERE KAYLE.
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I've seen worse lol, although not recently. Saw one dude in my games a while ago who hit a max of 1900 or so and was in my games at 1400 l0l
haha really? I remember that game, were you our mid or jungle? we had jungle xin and jenny/chris were bot, and I had to go smite in top lane? :O
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On May 08 2013 19:31 Dusty wrote:
I've seen worse lol, although not recently. Saw one dude in my games a while ago who hit a max of 1900 or so and was in my games at 1400 l0l
haha really? I remember that game, were you our mid or jungle? we had jungle xin and jenny/chris were bot, and I had to go smite in top lane? :O
YEAH I WAS THE JUNGLER LOL. SMALL WORLD BRO.
edit: One of the junglers, hehehehehehehehhehe smite kayle op <333~~
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i was so salty because of that :V
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On May 08 2013 09:10 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 09:04 Mondeezy wrote:On May 08 2013 06:28 Capped wrote:On May 08 2013 06:15 Ketara wrote:On May 08 2013 05:44 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On May 08 2013 05:32 Ketara wrote:
Maybe we Americans just complain more.
I think in general Europeans and Asians take games like LoL more seriously and look at them more as a competitive thing and less as a recreational thing, which might explain why NA players take it less seriously (thereby infuriating people who do take it seriously), if that's true. Perhaps you are not being polite enough. I haven't had more than ONE pick fight since I decided to start being very polite and calling correctly. "Hi all" "Prefer jungle/mid, will do anything" works 99% of the time IF YOU MEAN IT I'm real polite. But to be fair, you and I are at vastly different ELO levels. I think it's pretty obvious that the higher up you get the less people intentionally refuse to play with the team. I vouch, i'd give anything to be back at the high silver / low gold i was in S2. Bronze IV, Always AFK and if not AFK feed and troll. Screw placement matches. The higher you are the better it gets, bronze is a cesspool, i'd do anything to be carried to silver lmao. Is it really that bad? My friend swears he gets an Afk every game, regardless of what statistics or whatever I tell him. It makes me really tempted to finish leveling up my second account and check it out, lol. At high silver/low gold I get AFKs maybe 5-10% of games. I wouldn't be surprised if it's 25-50% at the bottom of bronze 5.
Just to add to this, i was bronze 3, dropped to bronze 4 after this and now im begging for carries on LoL forums because im pathetic and fed up.
32 games, 14 AFK's, 8 Outright feeders (things like 0-8 shaco jungle, 1-9 garen top) and raging arguements in at least 20 of those games, i came out with 6 wins out of 32 games.
Sometimes i feel like i should adopt the "Fuck you im carry role or i troll" sentiment, so at least i dont get stuck playing support for these people, i love playing support but not when my team ends up like this. I cant get myself to do it though, just feels bad.
On another note, maybe i should go back to flaming the crap out of people like this and getting temp-banned, i think thats Riot's viewpoint.
Trolls / ragers / afk / feeders on team ---> You get mad ---> You flame them ---> You get tempbanned ---> You dont have to play with them for a few days ---> You get unbanned ---> cycle repeats.
Technically, Riot ARE getting rid of those people from your life, by temp banning you so you cant play lol.
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EPT
