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On May 08 2013 15:23 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. Silly, People aren't mad about trolls, they are mad about the inability to instantly punish trolls, especially champ select trolls (although trolls do present the problem that it is unsatisfying to lose with a troll on your team, AND unsatisfying to win against a troll). Lets say I troll you. You can Screenshot>Dodge>Report (which is much more lengthy of a process than people pretend, plus you get a generic response), or you can Play > Report. Both are incredibly unsatisfying. A pertinent/accurate analogy is if you were the owner of a 7/11, and people would steal from you, and you know it, and you have a video camera system. But your options are: Walk away then call the police, or get in the car with them then call the police when they get home. But either way you don't know if they go to jail, and there is a significant chance that the judge/jury are only going to see your car ride with the perp if you choose option 2. By the way, if you choose option one you have to pay the government a random $1500 fine.
I was more responding to Ketara, who said that he plays the game to improve and that trolls are making him unable to do that.
But to adress you. What exactly do you classify trolls? How do you want to instantly punish trolls? Say you pick mid as first pick and third pick picks another mid laner. Do you instantly ban him for trolling? This game is unrewarding for innovation as it is, do you really want to enforce positions in soloq?
Trolls and feeders will always exist in mobas. (They exist everywhere but they have much more effect here, especially with how impossible it is to carry 4v5 when you compare it to say, dota)
There's nothing Riot can do to magically remove all the trolls, and playing with/against trolls isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem with the correct mindset. I have carried many "trolls" and I also have been carried by "trolls" who forced the first pick to support and went mid lane. I've also won plenty of games with duo jungle and bottom lanes like Alistar Mundo. All this in ranked. Should we really be banning everyone like this immediately? I don't think so.
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On May 08 2013 15:35 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. Silly, People aren't mad about trolls, they are mad about the inability to instantly punish trolls, especially champ select trolls (although trolls do present the problem that it is unsatisfying to lose with a troll on your team, AND unsatisfying to win against a troll). Lets say I troll you. You can Screenshot>Dodge>Report (which is much more lengthy of a process than people pretend, plus you get a generic response), or you can Play > Report. Both are incredibly unsatisfying. A pertinent/accurate analogy is if you were the owner of a 7/11, and people would steal from you, and you know it, and you have a video camera system. But your options are: Walk away then call the police, or get in the car with them then call the police when they get home. But either way you don't know if they go to jail, and there is a significant chance that the judge/jury are only going to see your car ride with the perp if you choose option 2. By the way, if you choose option one you have to pay the government a random $1500 fine. I was more responding to Ketara, who said that he plays the game to improve and that trolls are making him unable to do that. But to adress you. What exactly do you classify trolls? How do you want to instantly punish trolls? Say you pick mid as first pick and third pick picks another mid laner. Do you instantly ban him for trolling? This game is unrewarding for innovation as it is, do you really want to enforce positions in soloq? Trolls and feeders will always exist in mobas. (They exist everywhere but they have much more effect here, especially with how impossible it is to carry 4v5 when you compare it to say, dota) There's nothing Riot can do to magically remove all the trolls, and playing with/against trolls isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem with the correct mindset. I have carried many "trolls" and I also have been carried by "trolls" who forced the first pick to support and went mid lane. I've also won plenty of games with duo jungle and bottom lanes like Alistar Mundo. All this in ranked. Should we really be banning everyone like this immediately? I don't think so.
#1. The obvious answer is to implement Champion select reporting. You get the pre-game catharsis. Secondly in postgame you would get the same ability to report + the ability to un-report (so if the troll ended up just being azingy-like, everything is good). The additional bonus is people who troll pregame get double reported.
This alone solves minimum 50% of the problems.
#2. Once #1 is implemented, 2 people + report, and you dodge, no queue penalty.
#3. You get a weekly email with the results of your reports (should have been implemented years ago).
#4. (Just a comment) Just because someone carried a game by making the firstpick Syndra support, then lastpicked Master Yi and got 4 Pentakills, does not mean that person should not be banned. Dominate got banned FROM THE LCS for ingame trolling, which is laughably inconsequential compared to champ select trolling.
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The problem with that is that it discourages meta changing champ selects.
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On May 08 2013 15:45 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:35 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 15:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. Silly, People aren't mad about trolls, they are mad about the inability to instantly punish trolls, especially champ select trolls (although trolls do present the problem that it is unsatisfying to lose with a troll on your team, AND unsatisfying to win against a troll). Lets say I troll you. You can Screenshot>Dodge>Report (which is much more lengthy of a process than people pretend, plus you get a generic response), or you can Play > Report. Both are incredibly unsatisfying. A pertinent/accurate analogy is if you were the owner of a 7/11, and people would steal from you, and you know it, and you have a video camera system. But your options are: Walk away then call the police, or get in the car with them then call the police when they get home. But either way you don't know if they go to jail, and there is a significant chance that the judge/jury are only going to see your car ride with the perp if you choose option 2. By the way, if you choose option one you have to pay the government a random $1500 fine. I was more responding to Ketara, who said that he plays the game to improve and that trolls are making him unable to do that. But to adress you. What exactly do you classify trolls? How do you want to instantly punish trolls? Say you pick mid as first pick and third pick picks another mid laner. Do you instantly ban him for trolling? This game is unrewarding for innovation as it is, do you really want to enforce positions in soloq? Trolls and feeders will always exist in mobas. (They exist everywhere but they have much more effect here, especially with how impossible it is to carry 4v5 when you compare it to say, dota) There's nothing Riot can do to magically remove all the trolls, and playing with/against trolls isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem with the correct mindset. I have carried many "trolls" and I also have been carried by "trolls" who forced the first pick to support and went mid lane. I've also won plenty of games with duo jungle and bottom lanes like Alistar Mundo. All this in ranked. Should we really be banning everyone like this immediately? I don't think so. #1. The obvious answer is to implement Champion select reporting. You get the pre-game catharsis. Secondly in postgame you would get the same ability to report + the ability to un-report (so if the troll ended up just being azingy-like, everything is good). The additional bonus is people who troll pregame get double reported. This alone solves minimum 50% of the problems. #2. Once #1 is implemented, 2 people + report, and you dodge, no queue penalty. #3. You get a weekly email with the results of your reports (should have been implemented years ago). #4. (Just a comment) Just because someone carried a game by making the firstpick Syndra support, then lastpicked Master Yi and got 4 Pentakills, does not mean that person should not be banned. Dominate got banned FROM THE LCS for ingame trolling, which is laughably inconsequential compared to champ select trolling.
Dominate did not get banned for trolling. He got banned for verbal abuse. Check your facts.. And no, that Yi doesn't deserve to be banned.
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On May 08 2013 15:47 wei2coolman wrote:
The problem with that is that it discourages meta changing champ selects.
I don't have a problem with meta-changing champ selects. That's something to be expected, especially at the lower and higher ends of soloq elo. I do have a problem with people forcing higher picks out of their selected role though, because the draft order is there for a reason. 12 year olds shouldn't get mid anyways when higher pick decides they want mid.
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On May 08 2013 15:54 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:47 wei2coolman wrote:
The problem with that is that it discourages meta changing champ selects. I don't have a problem with meta-changing champ selects. That's something to be expected, especially at the lower and higher ends of soloq elo. I do have a problem with people forcing higher picks out of their selected role though, because the draft order is there for a reason. 12 year olds shouldn't get mid anyways when higher pick decides they want mid.
That goes without saying; but if such a tool was implemented it would be used to report players who want to do shit like fiddle support; or morgana support, and shit like that.
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On May 08 2013 15:45 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:35 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 15:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. Silly, People aren't mad about trolls, they are mad about the inability to instantly punish trolls, especially champ select trolls (although trolls do present the problem that it is unsatisfying to lose with a troll on your team, AND unsatisfying to win against a troll). Lets say I troll you. You can Screenshot>Dodge>Report (which is much more lengthy of a process than people pretend, plus you get a generic response), or you can Play > Report. Both are incredibly unsatisfying. A pertinent/accurate analogy is if you were the owner of a 7/11, and people would steal from you, and you know it, and you have a video camera system. But your options are: Walk away then call the police, or get in the car with them then call the police when they get home. But either way you don't know if they go to jail, and there is a significant chance that the judge/jury are only going to see your car ride with the perp if you choose option 2. By the way, if you choose option one you have to pay the government a random $1500 fine. I was more responding to Ketara, who said that he plays the game to improve and that trolls are making him unable to do that. But to adress you. What exactly do you classify trolls? How do you want to instantly punish trolls? Say you pick mid as first pick and third pick picks another mid laner. Do you instantly ban him for trolling? This game is unrewarding for innovation as it is, do you really want to enforce positions in soloq? Trolls and feeders will always exist in mobas. (They exist everywhere but they have much more effect here, especially with how impossible it is to carry 4v5 when you compare it to say, dota) There's nothing Riot can do to magically remove all the trolls, and playing with/against trolls isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem with the correct mindset. I have carried many "trolls" and I also have been carried by "trolls" who forced the first pick to support and went mid lane. I've also won plenty of games with duo jungle and bottom lanes like Alistar Mundo. All this in ranked. Should we really be banning everyone like this immediately? I don't think so. #1. The obvious answer is to implement Champion select reporting. You get the pre-game catharsis. Secondly in postgame you would get the same ability to report + the ability to un-report (so if the troll ended up just being azingy-like, everything is good). The additional bonus is people who troll pregame get double reported. This alone solves minimum 50% of the problems. #2. Once #1 is implemented, 2 people + report, and you dodge, no queue penalty. #3. You get a weekly email with the results of your reports (should have been implemented years ago). #4. (Just a comment) Just because someone carried a game by making the firstpick Syndra support, then lastpicked Master Yi and got 4 Pentakills, does not mean that person should not be banned. Dominate got banned FROM THE LCS for ingame trolling, which is laughably inconsequential compared to champ select trolling.
I think #3 is pretty stupid. I don't care that someone I played with two months ago got banned. I probably don't even remember that person or that game. It wouldn't hurt for Riot to put that feature in but I also wouldn't really care either way.
#1 and #2 have so much potential to be abused. From people reporting because someone is playing an unconventional champion to people who duo queue reporting so they can get a free dodge. I don't want either idea implemented.
#4 is just wrong as Dominate got banned for flaming, not being a troll. Riot has said, multiple times, that they don't ban people for playing things that are unconventional. As for people picking a second AP mid or second jungler or second ADC and then actually going to the same lane I see that in one of like fifty or sixty games.
This should really be a banned topic next thread. It's gotten brought up so much this patch and it really isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Just play the game and ignore kids who are "trolling" you.
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Champion select reporting
Options
Verbal Abuse/Harassment
Offensive language
Disrespecting draft order(draft/ranked only)
I think those are the 3 things that are Reportable. Everything else is fair game. Also I avoid blinds, and I wouldn't know how to fix the problems there either.
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On May 08 2013 15:53 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:45 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 15:35 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 15:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. Silly, People aren't mad about trolls, they are mad about the inability to instantly punish trolls, especially champ select trolls (although trolls do present the problem that it is unsatisfying to lose with a troll on your team, AND unsatisfying to win against a troll). Lets say I troll you. You can Screenshot>Dodge>Report (which is much more lengthy of a process than people pretend, plus you get a generic response), or you can Play > Report. Both are incredibly unsatisfying. A pertinent/accurate analogy is if you were the owner of a 7/11, and people would steal from you, and you know it, and you have a video camera system. But your options are: Walk away then call the police, or get in the car with them then call the police when they get home. But either way you don't know if they go to jail, and there is a significant chance that the judge/jury are only going to see your car ride with the perp if you choose option 2. By the way, if you choose option one you have to pay the government a random $1500 fine. I was more responding to Ketara, who said that he plays the game to improve and that trolls are making him unable to do that. But to adress you. What exactly do you classify trolls? How do you want to instantly punish trolls? Say you pick mid as first pick and third pick picks another mid laner. Do you instantly ban him for trolling? This game is unrewarding for innovation as it is, do you really want to enforce positions in soloq? Trolls and feeders will always exist in mobas. (They exist everywhere but they have much more effect here, especially with how impossible it is to carry 4v5 when you compare it to say, dota) There's nothing Riot can do to magically remove all the trolls, and playing with/against trolls isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem with the correct mindset. I have carried many "trolls" and I also have been carried by "trolls" who forced the first pick to support and went mid lane. I've also won plenty of games with duo jungle and bottom lanes like Alistar Mundo. All this in ranked. Should we really be banning everyone like this immediately? I don't think so. #1. The obvious answer is to implement Champion select reporting. You get the pre-game catharsis. Secondly in postgame you would get the same ability to report + the ability to un-report (so if the troll ended up just being azingy-like, everything is good). The additional bonus is people who troll pregame get double reported. This alone solves minimum 50% of the problems. #2. Once #1 is implemented, 2 people + report, and you dodge, no queue penalty. #3. You get a weekly email with the results of your reports (should have been implemented years ago). #4. (Just a comment) Just because someone carried a game by making the firstpick Syndra support, then lastpicked Master Yi and got 4 Pentakills, does not mean that person should not be banned. Dominate got banned FROM THE LCS for ingame trolling, which is laughably inconsequential compared to champ select trolling. Dominate did not get banned for trolling. He got banned for verbal abuse. Check your facts.. And no, that Yi doesn't deserve to be banned.
Verbal abuse is inconsequential. Mute = completely negated.
The Yi absolutely deserves to be banned as well. Its not like he said, Mid please, he said "Mid or Feed". Simply saying that, or anything similar is the kind of emotional terrorism that makes a significant % of the LoL population avoid SoloQ in the first place (Hint, one of our mods on TL plays almost exclusively ranked 5s).
On May 08 2013 15:55 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:54 Amui wrote:On May 08 2013 15:47 wei2coolman wrote:
The problem with that is that it discourages meta changing champ selects. I don't have a problem with meta-changing champ selects. That's something to be expected, especially at the lower and higher ends of soloq elo. I do have a problem with people forcing higher picks out of their selected role though, because the draft order is there for a reason. 12 year olds shouldn't get mid anyways when higher pick decides they want mid. That goes without saying; but if such a tool was implemented it would be used to report players who want to do shit like fiddle support; or morgana support, and shit like that.
A possible issue. However, I play morg support all the time to no flaming, unless I suck. Then I get flamed for sucking, but that is no different than any other time I play terribly.
Edit
On May 08 2013 15:58 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:45 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 15:35 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 15:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. Silly, People aren't mad about trolls, they are mad about the inability to instantly punish trolls, especially champ select trolls (although trolls do present the problem that it is unsatisfying to lose with a troll on your team, AND unsatisfying to win against a troll). Lets say I troll you. You can Screenshot>Dodge>Report (which is much more lengthy of a process than people pretend, plus you get a generic response), or you can Play > Report. Both are incredibly unsatisfying. A pertinent/accurate analogy is if you were the owner of a 7/11, and people would steal from you, and you know it, and you have a video camera system. But your options are: Walk away then call the police, or get in the car with them then call the police when they get home. But either way you don't know if they go to jail, and there is a significant chance that the judge/jury are only going to see your car ride with the perp if you choose option 2. By the way, if you choose option one you have to pay the government a random $1500 fine. I was more responding to Ketara, who said that he plays the game to improve and that trolls are making him unable to do that. But to adress you. What exactly do you classify trolls? How do you want to instantly punish trolls? Say you pick mid as first pick and third pick picks another mid laner. Do you instantly ban him for trolling? This game is unrewarding for innovation as it is, do you really want to enforce positions in soloq? Trolls and feeders will always exist in mobas. (They exist everywhere but they have much more effect here, especially with how impossible it is to carry 4v5 when you compare it to say, dota) There's nothing Riot can do to magically remove all the trolls, and playing with/against trolls isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem with the correct mindset. I have carried many "trolls" and I also have been carried by "trolls" who forced the first pick to support and went mid lane. I've also won plenty of games with duo jungle and bottom lanes like Alistar Mundo. All this in ranked. Should we really be banning everyone like this immediately? I don't think so. #1. The obvious answer is to implement Champion select reporting. You get the pre-game catharsis. Secondly in postgame you would get the same ability to report + the ability to un-report (so if the troll ended up just being azingy-like, everything is good). The additional bonus is people who troll pregame get double reported. This alone solves minimum 50% of the problems. #2. Once #1 is implemented, 2 people + report, and you dodge, no queue penalty. #3. You get a weekly email with the results of your reports (should have been implemented years ago). #4. (Just a comment) Just because someone carried a game by making the firstpick Syndra support, then lastpicked Master Yi and got 4 Pentakills, does not mean that person should not be banned. Dominate got banned FROM THE LCS for ingame trolling, which is laughably inconsequential compared to champ select trolling. I think #3 is pretty stupid. I don't care that someone I played with two months ago got banned. I probably don't even remember that person or that game. It wouldn't hurt for Riot to put that feature in but I also wouldn't really care either way. #1 and #2 have so much potential to be abused. From people reporting because someone is playing an unconventional champion to people who duo queue reporting so they can get a free dodge. I don't want either idea implemented. #4 is just wrong as Dominate got banned for flaming, not being a troll. Riot has said, multiple times, that they don't ban people for playing things that are unconventional. As for people picking a second AP mid or second jungler or second ADC and then actually going to the same lane I see that in one of like fifty or sixty games. This should really be a banned topic next thread. It's gotten brought up so much this patch and it really isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Just play the game and ignore kids who are "trolling" you.
Your issue with #3 is just a tribunal problem, not a problem with my system. In fact, I wrote a paper explaining why judges don't learn when they are wrong because the appellate system takes too long. Its the same problem with the tribunal.
#4 for the second time. Flaming is so incredibly inconsequential to the actual game. The last time I saw ingame flaming was because our Ez was sucking and doing the Battlemage Ez build. He got flamed for his build pretty hard. But guess what, the game was lost 10 minutes earlier when he decided it was a good idea to try and trade with a Draven 3 different times.
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On May 08 2013 16:07 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:53 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 15:45 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 15:35 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 15:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. Silly, People aren't mad about trolls, they are mad about the inability to instantly punish trolls, especially champ select trolls (although trolls do present the problem that it is unsatisfying to lose with a troll on your team, AND unsatisfying to win against a troll). Lets say I troll you. You can Screenshot>Dodge>Report (which is much more lengthy of a process than people pretend, plus you get a generic response), or you can Play > Report. Both are incredibly unsatisfying. A pertinent/accurate analogy is if you were the owner of a 7/11, and people would steal from you, and you know it, and you have a video camera system. But your options are: Walk away then call the police, or get in the car with them then call the police when they get home. But either way you don't know if they go to jail, and there is a significant chance that the judge/jury are only going to see your car ride with the perp if you choose option 2. By the way, if you choose option one you have to pay the government a random $1500 fine. I was more responding to Ketara, who said that he plays the game to improve and that trolls are making him unable to do that. But to adress you. What exactly do you classify trolls? How do you want to instantly punish trolls? Say you pick mid as first pick and third pick picks another mid laner. Do you instantly ban him for trolling? This game is unrewarding for innovation as it is, do you really want to enforce positions in soloq? Trolls and feeders will always exist in mobas. (They exist everywhere but they have much more effect here, especially with how impossible it is to carry 4v5 when you compare it to say, dota) There's nothing Riot can do to magically remove all the trolls, and playing with/against trolls isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem with the correct mindset. I have carried many "trolls" and I also have been carried by "trolls" who forced the first pick to support and went mid lane. I've also won plenty of games with duo jungle and bottom lanes like Alistar Mundo. All this in ranked. Should we really be banning everyone like this immediately? I don't think so. #1. The obvious answer is to implement Champion select reporting. You get the pre-game catharsis. Secondly in postgame you would get the same ability to report + the ability to un-report (so if the troll ended up just being azingy-like, everything is good). The additional bonus is people who troll pregame get double reported. This alone solves minimum 50% of the problems. #2. Once #1 is implemented, 2 people + report, and you dodge, no queue penalty. #3. You get a weekly email with the results of your reports (should have been implemented years ago). #4. (Just a comment) Just because someone carried a game by making the firstpick Syndra support, then lastpicked Master Yi and got 4 Pentakills, does not mean that person should not be banned. Dominate got banned FROM THE LCS for ingame trolling, which is laughably inconsequential compared to champ select trolling. Dominate did not get banned for trolling. He got banned for verbal abuse. Check your facts.. And no, that Yi doesn't deserve to be banned. Verbal abuse is inconsequential. Mute = completely negated. The Yi absolutely deserves to be banned as well. Its not like he said, Mid please, he said "Mid or Feed". Simply saying that, or anything similar is the kind of emotional terrorism that makes a significant % of the LoL population avoid SoloQ in the first place (Hint, one of our mods on TL plays almost exclusively ranked 5s). Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:55 wei2coolman wrote:On May 08 2013 15:54 Amui wrote:On May 08 2013 15:47 wei2coolman wrote:
The problem with that is that it discourages meta changing champ selects. I don't have a problem with meta-changing champ selects. That's something to be expected, especially at the lower and higher ends of soloq elo. I do have a problem with people forcing higher picks out of their selected role though, because the draft order is there for a reason. 12 year olds shouldn't get mid anyways when higher pick decides they want mid. That goes without saying; but if such a tool was implemented it would be used to report players who want to do shit like fiddle support; or morgana support, and shit like that. A possible issue. However, I play morg support all the time to no flaming, unless I suck. Then I get flamed for sucking, but that is no different than any other time I play terribly.
I never said I agreed with Dom's ban, but that was what he was banned for.
Yi didn't necessarily have to say anything. He could have been silent all game, picked Yi and said mid. Now your Syndra has a choice, double mid or let Yi mid. Yi isn't really trolling, just giving your team a choice. The question is, do you make people choosing to go duo mid a bannable offense? Because I wouldn't (and apparently Riot, too, because they haven't said anything about it) If people don't have the skin to play soloq, then they shouldn't. There is nothing wrong with playing just ranked 5s or draft normals (or even blind normals). Ranked is for people who take the game seriously and want to tryhard. Strong feelings overall and about wanting to play your best role is natural.
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On May 08 2013 16:09 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 16:07 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 15:53 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 15:45 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 15:35 OutlaW- wrote:On May 08 2013 15:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. Silly, People aren't mad about trolls, they are mad about the inability to instantly punish trolls, especially champ select trolls (although trolls do present the problem that it is unsatisfying to lose with a troll on your team, AND unsatisfying to win against a troll). Lets say I troll you. You can Screenshot>Dodge>Report (which is much more lengthy of a process than people pretend, plus you get a generic response), or you can Play > Report. Both are incredibly unsatisfying. A pertinent/accurate analogy is if you were the owner of a 7/11, and people would steal from you, and you know it, and you have a video camera system. But your options are: Walk away then call the police, or get in the car with them then call the police when they get home. But either way you don't know if they go to jail, and there is a significant chance that the judge/jury are only going to see your car ride with the perp if you choose option 2. By the way, if you choose option one you have to pay the government a random $1500 fine. I was more responding to Ketara, who said that he plays the game to improve and that trolls are making him unable to do that. But to adress you. What exactly do you classify trolls? How do you want to instantly punish trolls? Say you pick mid as first pick and third pick picks another mid laner. Do you instantly ban him for trolling? This game is unrewarding for innovation as it is, do you really want to enforce positions in soloq? Trolls and feeders will always exist in mobas. (They exist everywhere but they have much more effect here, especially with how impossible it is to carry 4v5 when you compare it to say, dota) There's nothing Riot can do to magically remove all the trolls, and playing with/against trolls isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem with the correct mindset. I have carried many "trolls" and I also have been carried by "trolls" who forced the first pick to support and went mid lane. I've also won plenty of games with duo jungle and bottom lanes like Alistar Mundo. All this in ranked. Should we really be banning everyone like this immediately? I don't think so. #1. The obvious answer is to implement Champion select reporting. You get the pre-game catharsis. Secondly in postgame you would get the same ability to report + the ability to un-report (so if the troll ended up just being azingy-like, everything is good). The additional bonus is people who troll pregame get double reported. This alone solves minimum 50% of the problems. #2. Once #1 is implemented, 2 people + report, and you dodge, no queue penalty. #3. You get a weekly email with the results of your reports (should have been implemented years ago). #4. (Just a comment) Just because someone carried a game by making the firstpick Syndra support, then lastpicked Master Yi and got 4 Pentakills, does not mean that person should not be banned. Dominate got banned FROM THE LCS for ingame trolling, which is laughably inconsequential compared to champ select trolling. Dominate did not get banned for trolling. He got banned for verbal abuse. Check your facts.. And no, that Yi doesn't deserve to be banned. Verbal abuse is inconsequential. Mute = completely negated. The Yi absolutely deserves to be banned as well. Its not like he said, Mid please, he said "Mid or Feed". Simply saying that, or anything similar is the kind of emotional terrorism that makes a significant % of the LoL population avoid SoloQ in the first place (Hint, one of our mods on TL plays almost exclusively ranked 5s). On May 08 2013 15:55 wei2coolman wrote:On May 08 2013 15:54 Amui wrote:On May 08 2013 15:47 wei2coolman wrote:
The problem with that is that it discourages meta changing champ selects. I don't have a problem with meta-changing champ selects. That's something to be expected, especially at the lower and higher ends of soloq elo. I do have a problem with people forcing higher picks out of their selected role though, because the draft order is there for a reason. 12 year olds shouldn't get mid anyways when higher pick decides they want mid. That goes without saying; but if such a tool was implemented it would be used to report players who want to do shit like fiddle support; or morgana support, and shit like that. A possible issue. However, I play morg support all the time to no flaming, unless I suck. Then I get flamed for sucking, but that is no different than any other time I play terribly. I never said I agreed with Dom's ban, but that was what he was banned for. Yi didn't necessarily have to say anything. He could have been silent all game, picked Yi and said mid. Now your Syndra has a choice, double mid or let Yi mid. Yi isn't really trolling, just giving your team a choice. The question is, do you make people choosing to go duo mid a bannable offense? Because I wouldn't (and apparently Riot, too, because they haven't said anything about it) If people don't have the skin to play soloq, then they shouldn't. There is nothing wrong with playing just ranked 5s or draft normals (or even blind normals). Ranked is for people who take the game seriously and want to tryhard. Strong feelings overall and about wanting to play your best role is natural.
If you want to break the meta the BOP is on you. You can't be silent while doing it. If the Syndra thinks her experience was significantly affected, then she should report. 1 report is not a ban, of course, neither is 2.
Plus, do not forget the essential option of "unreporting" in postgame. If your Yi bro was friendly and carried, would not said Syndra do that? If she did not, and people kept pardoning her reports would be devalued like Riot already says that they do.
Edit, and by the way. The only non-meta things that have ever worked in Ranked games I have played are:
1. Things people talked about and said "we should try" in champ select. and
2. No AD Carry bot (and always something that is a great kill lane like Panth + Jarvan).
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ive been seeing a lot of rengar lately and I just wanted to say don't listen to riot, he's still very strong in good hands.
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On May 08 2013 16:18 Dusty wrote:
ive been seeing a lot of rengar lately and I just wanted to say don't listen to riot, he's still very strong in good hands.
Agreed. I think he's in a pretty good spot of being great at 1v1 and split pushing but having pretty bad teamfights.
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On May 08 2013 15:55 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:54 Amui wrote:On May 08 2013 15:47 wei2coolman wrote:
The problem with that is that it discourages meta changing champ selects. I don't have a problem with meta-changing champ selects. That's something to be expected, especially at the lower and higher ends of soloq elo. I do have a problem with people forcing higher picks out of their selected role though, because the draft order is there for a reason. 12 year olds shouldn't get mid anyways when higher pick decides they want mid. That goes without saying; but if such a tool was implemented it would be used to report players who want to do shit like fiddle support; or morgana support, and shit like that.
Just to be nitpicky, support fiddle isn't terrible. He has two really strong CC's, and he's got fine base damage. I usually go like sightstone -> chalice -> seeker -> zhonyas.
Support Morgana is actually pretty good with Draven. Black shield lets him push and harass with impunity.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
How does LoL maths work? Is there some website I can look at to learn?
I am good at maths, but I have no idea how LoL calculates damage and things.
Can we get a thread detailing how to calculate different LoL maths. Would really appreciate it.
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On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply.
i dunno, one of my problems with trolls and feeders is that it does limit the improvement you can make, because it is a team game.
i really despise afkers, whether it's on my team or on the other team. especially if i am in the lane where they afk. i don't think 2v1 vs adc will teach me anything and after that it's just 10-15 minutes of more pain till it's over.
if a lane does bad, i don't really mind. but if a lane intentionally feeds then yeah, it is frustrating and it does impose a limit on your improvement. i used to think it was acceptable but really, 20 minutes is a long time.
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LoL math is pretty simple. Doesn't really break any RPG statistic rules with the exception of CDR being self synergistic in terms of casts/time.
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On May 08 2013 16:39 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 14:52 OutlaW- wrote:
Your improvement shouldn't be result-oriented, especially not in a team game. What you should be doing is perfect your technique. The reason why people always complain about trolls and feeders is because they think that if you win then you did well. but ideally, you shouldn't care about winning or losing at all. The only thing you should be looking at is your own play. Once you embrace this, trolls/feeders/afkers don't matter anymore, because you know that if you improve and stop making mistakes, your ranking (that shouldn't even matter to you) will improve.
This I don't think fits many people here, but the problem players mentioned above also provide a very, very easy and satisfying way to externalize mistakes. You see someone doing much worse than you, you lose because of him, you play him, you tell yourself you played better and that you deserved to win that game. It's fairly difficult to think of your own mistakes once you're in that mindset.
Every time someone (usually teut) or I say this, I feel like I'm being redundant and that this has been said many times before, but I still see the same complains over and over. I guess wanting to vent frustrations is fine, and so is playing this game recreationally, that is to have fun (I don't know how to do this), but the same concepts still apply. i dunno, one of my problems with trolls and feeders is that it does limit the improvement you can make, because it is a team game. i really despise afkers, whether it's on my team or on the other team. especially if i am in the lane where they afk. i don't think 2v1 vs adc will teach me anything and after that it's just 10-15 minutes of more pain till it's over. if a lane does bad, i don't really mind. but if a lane intentionally feeds then yeah, it is frustrating and it does impose a limit on your improvement. i used to think it was acceptable but really, 20 minutes is a long time.
It doesn't limit the improvement you can make. You say that playing 1v2 as AD Carry teaches you nothing, but how can that be true? It's an extreme case of playing from behind. I think you're mistaking the words fun and improvement. Not dying and getting all the CS you can while being so much behind is definitely a helpful skill to have, no? And if you die, it's your fault, not the afk's. I see plenty of people blame their support for going to ward while they die and this is the same thing. The afk may have put you in a bad situation, but in my opinion it's bad situations where you need your skill the most (and thus where you can improve it the most).
A lane intentionally feeding doesn't hinder your improvement, because winning or losing has nothing to do with improvement. Somebody feeding isn't in your control. I understand that it sucks having to play like a bitch and just wait for 20 minutes until your team can surrender, but that has nothing to do with improvement. If you end the game at 20 minutes with a 0/0/0 score (provided you play it out normally, of course) while your team is 0-20, you can be happy in knowing that you did all you could in the situation.
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On May 08 2013 16:29 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 15:55 wei2coolman wrote:On May 08 2013 15:54 Amui wrote:On May 08 2013 15:47 wei2coolman wrote:
The problem with that is that it discourages meta changing champ selects. I don't have a problem with meta-changing champ selects. That's something to be expected, especially at the lower and higher ends of soloq elo. I do have a problem with people forcing higher picks out of their selected role though, because the draft order is there for a reason. 12 year olds shouldn't get mid anyways when higher pick decides they want mid. That goes without saying; but if such a tool was implemented it would be used to report players who want to do shit like fiddle support; or morgana support, and shit like that. Just to be nitpicky, support fiddle isn't terrible. He has two really strong CC's, and he's got fine base damage. I usually go like sightstone -> chalice -> seeker -> zhonyas. Support Morgana is actually pretty good with Draven. Black shield lets him push and harass with impunity.
Tell that to low elo scrappers that don't know any better. They're hidden, at low elo (where everyone gets buthurt about "troll" picks)
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EPT
