EPT[Patch 3.05: Balance Update] General Discussion - Page 90
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LaM
United States1321 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
Circa two years ago I fell for it and believed she was secret OP. But no more. Old Karma was not a strong champion imo. New Karma might be good and it'll just take time before good players pick her up and make her work. Or before the community learns to play with a Karma on their team or whatever. I don't think she'll become fotm or anything though since I firmly believe she's probably just a niche pick. Although maybe if Riot buffs her constantly we'll see her played tons. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 17 2013 10:37 overt wrote: Yeah, I'm not trying to Karma bash too much. But TL has fucking always had a love affair with Karma. Circa two years ago I fell for it and believed she was secret OP. But no more. Old Karma was not a strong champion imo. New Karma might be good and it'll just take time before good players pick her up and make her work. Or before the community learns to play with a Karma on their team or whatever. I don't think she'll become fotm or anything though since I firmly believe she's probably just a niche pick. Although maybe if Riot buffs her constantly we'll see her played tons. For the record I've never played old karma ever, I am untainted. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
Old Q was nice damage+a strong heal. New Q is a mediocre slow and really only does damage if you mantra it and the secondary explosion almost never hits unless they're bad or someone else cc's them inside it. The delay is so long and the aoe is small so they can almost always just walk out of it. Her new W is just terrible. Very little damage and has no slow so it's so easy for your target to just walk out of range and take no damage and not get snared. On top of that, Karma's heal only heals herself, is now on her W, but only when mantra'd and you're also literally never ever going to mantra her W. Then on top of all those changes, her ult now no longer holds charges, which was really helpful before cause you could maximize her burst/utility. Now instead you get some shitty Ryze wannabe passive for your ult that doesn't really work all that well cause your cds are significant. Before you could reasonably expect to get 2 mantra'd skills off in a teamfight, maybe 3~4 depending on cdr. Now you can expect to get 1, maaaybe 2 if you have 40% cdr and you're lucky. Her new E rocks. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 17 2013 11:15 sylverfyre wrote: Old karma had an unbalancable kit with the weirdest power curve in the game. If they gave her numbers buffs enough to be viable, she'd be downright retarded once she got to late game (she was already pretty reasonable late game, but was shitty at certain key points, and also thrived off the fact that nobody really knew the XYZ vs. Karma matchups thoroughly.) I disagree. It's not that it was unbalanceable, more the fact that Riot never really tried to balance it. IMO the biggest problem with old Karma is that she was very much a Morg/Zilean-esque champion. A mage that wants farm, but thrives as a support in the lategame. The issue was that Morg/Zilean filled that niche better than she did when the meta allowed for farmed support mids cause they had more to offer. On top of that, most everyone tried to play her as a hard, 0 farm support, which simply doesn't work. Hence her low popularity and winrates. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On April 17 2013 11:32 Ryuu314 wrote: I disagree. It's not that it was unbalanceable, more the fact that Riot never really tried to balance it. IMO the biggest problem with old Karma is that she was very much a Morg/Zilean-esque champion. A mage that wants farm, but thrives as a support in the lategame. The issue was that Morg/Zilean filled that niche better than she did when the meta allowed for farmed support mids cause they had more to offer. On top of that, most everyone tried to play her as a hard, 0 farm support, which simply doesn't work. Hence her low popularity and winrates. What? They were working on that balancing kit behind the scenes for A FULL YEAR before giving up on it. SGS played her mid as well. It was a gimmicky composition but was very beatable, partially because of Karma's spell ranges making Annie look long ranged. Karma mid was an accepted way to play Karma (SGS's mid player was not the only one to try it) but it didn't stick because she had a shit power curve compared to most mids, partly because of her lack of a real ultimate, while still relying so heavily on Mantra to do anything at all. Her power curve was fine pre-6 - even a little bit strong at the early levels, but then at 6 every other mid skyrocketed past her, and she didn't really catch back up until very late game when fights no longer were decided completely by initial burst (when most mages and assassins are strong) and she could make fights last long enough for multiple mantra cooldowns thanks to CDR and the lower mantra CD she got at higher levels. Even then, there was still a glaring lack of CC in her kit (doesn't help that she was basically forced to level W last, and even then to get a slow of average strength out of it, you needed to take mantra away from your E or Q.) | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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Parametric
Canada1261 Posts
Should i study for my final tomorrow or see if my lucky streak continues...? Hmmm, tough choice 3 games BAM Plat V, weeeeeeeeeeee good day. And still time to study for my final tomorrow morning. Procrastinating in engineering at its finest. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On April 17 2013 11:42 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: That's one of the problems with champs that don't have ults. They don't have ults. It's true. But even the transform-ult characters get some noticable power at 6/11/16. Karma didn't get any, which is why they redesigned her to put points into her R, and make it such that her mantra-empowered skills scale off of those points in R rather than scaling off the points in the individual skill. Because of this: - You get a semblance of ulti power at levels 6/11/16 - You can mantra-empower your 1-point-wonder skills without it being a waste. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 17 2013 11:35 sylverfyre wrote: What? They were working on that balancing kit behind the scenes for A FULL YEAR before giving up on it. SGS played her mid as well. It was a gimmicky composition but was very beatable, partially because of Karma's spell ranges making Annie look long ranged. Karma mid was an accepted way to play Karma (SGS's mid player was not the only one to try it) but it didn't stick because she had a shit power curve compared to most mids, partly because of her lack of a real ultimate, while still relying so heavily on Mantra to do anything at all. Her power curve was fine and even a little bit strong 1-5, then every other mid skyrocketed past her at 6, and she didn't really catch back up until very late game when fights no longer were decided completely by initial burst (when most mages and assassins are strong) and she could make fights last long enough for multiple mantra cooldowns thanks to CDR and the lower mantra CD she got at higher levels. Even then, there was still a glaring lack of CC in her kit (doesn't help that she was basically forced to level W last, and even then to get a slow of average strength out of it, you needed to take mantra away from your E or Q.) I won't speculate on what they did or did not do behind the scenes, but literally the only meaningful (read: not bug fix) change they did to Karma was this patch: V1.0.0.112: Heavenly Wave: base heal increased to 35/55/75/95/115/135 from 30/45/60/75/90/105. Spirit Bond: cooldown reduced to 15/14/13/12/11/10 from 20/18/16/14/12/10. Soul Shield: base shield strength and damage increased to 80/120/160/200/240/280 from 70/110/150/190/230/270. Mantra: cooldown reduced to 25 seconds from 30 seconds. They also made her mantra cd scale with level two patches after that. other than those two changes, Riot literally did not roll out a single change other than bug fixes. Riot did absolutely nothing else. How is that balancing the kit? I don't really buy the whole "working on it behind the scenes" thing considering how they've not exactly shown the best restraint at buffing/nerfing champs to the point of being overpowered/underpowered. I'm not arguing that old Karma was bad. She kinda was or at least, she underperformed compared to other champs (like Morg/Zilean) that fit her role (ie. farmed supports). I'm just arguing that old Karma is better than new Karma and Riot probably could've just buffed her numbers to make her viable. On April 17 2013 11:49 sylverfyre wrote: It's true. But even the transform-ult characters get some noticable power at 6/11/16. Karma didn't get any, which is why she now puts points into her R, and her mantra-empowered skills scale off of those points in R rather than scaling off the points in the individual skill. I also don't completely agree with this. Jayce, for example, does perfectly fine w/out leveling his ult. Same with Sion, until he got nerfed/surpassed by newer champs. AP Janna also does fine w/out leveling her ult pass 1 (at least according to Zekent). We've had plenty of examples of champions that were perfectly viable with ults that were unnecessary to the success of their kit. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On April 17 2013 10:23 ticklishmusic wrote: $650 for elo boosting? There was a kid at my school who got caught for taking the SAT for other people, and he *only* got paid a similar amount Honestly, I'd probably do it for like a hundred bucks and a snack. FOR ANYONE WHO SEES THIS, I AM KIDDING. LIKE 100%. do you accept lunchables | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On April 17 2013 11:49 Ryuu314 wrote: I also don't completely agree with this. Jayce, for example, does perfectly fine w/out leveling his ult. Same with Sion, until he got nerfed/surpassed by newer champs. AP Janna also does fine w/out leveling her ult pass 1 (at least according to Zekent). We've had plenty of examples of champions that were perfectly viable with ults that were unnecessary to the success of their kit. Jayce has the option to skip his ult, but the option is there (and is honestly quite standard to take - the 6s CD increased melee damage / ranged shred is no joke) Elise gets a ton out of the extra spiderlings. Nidalee gets the most power out of leveling cougar, because her cougar abilities don't scale with QWE rank, they scale with cougar rank (much like Karma's new mantra - her mantra abilities scale with mantra rank.) It also gives karma something unique, because Mantra is a more like a classical ultimate than the transforming champs, but she gets her 'ultimate' at level 1. Edit: fixed quote tree. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
But again, I still think Karma's a viable hero. She has an extremely team-oriented skillset and works really well when fights get drawn out so that she gets her power curve going through several mantras. They really should have given her a useful passive to compliment her skillset. When you have champions like Diana and Sona getting free nukes from their passives on top of having 4 spells, it's quite obvious that Karma gets shafted with that regard as well. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
And Nidalee got her Cougar form resistances removed despite a naturally weaker kit outside of poke (she's particularly strong in some situations, namely with her 40% shred and in skirmishes that let her abuse her short cooldowns in Cougar form when AD, and obviously her poke when AP, but Jayce has stronger burst in melee form, and even ranged form as long as the target isn't low HP, while also having tankiness, a strong renewable shred of his own, his stupid spammable %MS buffs that rival pounce as long as you don't have to use a wall to escape/chase, and dual kits that click better so his continued combo is also smoother and more damaging than Nid's; Elise has stronger burst when using her form switch, stronger dps when abusing her spiderlings and the crazy strong on-hit of her spider form, is a stronger/safer assassin unless they get fed, and better scaling). I mean, there's a lot of stuff I dislike about Nidalee, and I didn't see the day I'd defend her coming, but when you see the kind of crap that goes well under the radar in Jayce and Elise, I'm still puzzled as to how Riot thought removing her Cougar form resistances would do her good. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
Old Karma's problem was that her abilities scaled with levels really really slowly due to her needing to hit lvl 6 on each ability to match the power of other champions level 5 abilities. This basically meant she needed to be ahead of the exp curve to compete with other champs. New Karma's kit is just inferior imo. | ||
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