|
On March 28 2013 16:32 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 15:12 TheYango wrote:
It would also go against their beginning of S3 goal of keeping laners from farming jungle too much, but at this point, off-laners are more starved than junglers are at those levels. Part of the problem is that Riot went about increasing the value of the jungle the wrong way. The big difference between DotA and LoL's jungles, beyond a few mechanics, is that no jungler can actually fully clear their jungle. This is important, because it means lanes can take jungle farm without reducing the income of the jungler significantly, but it also means the jungler's income increases as their ability to clear the jungle increases. The scaling jungle tries to simulate that organic increase, but doesn't do nearly as good a job while also contributing to the problem you've been analyzing. To solve your problem Riot would have to increase the number of jungle camps, remove jungle scaling, and simply operate under the assumption that junglers shouldn't be capable of clearing everything within its spawn time. It's not perfect, but it would help address the issue.
Without severely changing the map layout, you could add one camp to blue side opposite the inner turret, and one more to red side jungle. Not sure on what the ramifications of it would be though, although the only champ I can think of that could concievably clear every single jungle camp as well as lane farm would be AD tryn with multiple items.
|
On March 28 2013 16:21 kongoline wrote:man i love lee sin i cry everytime i see no changes to him, its most fun champion in game but theres literally no reason to play him right now over any other jungler/toplaner
ad lee is still the manliest thing you can do, not to mention that it's about twice as fun as any other champion in the game!! believe in yourself and acquire greatness!! do not be afraid of failure, you're awesome!!!
|
Actually, the thing that I welcome the most in this patch is the AFK detector. On China server, the amount of AFK in champ select is so absurb. Not lets hope we can get this on CN soon  .
I think will wait for 3.04 on CN before start to play seriously again.
|
Whoever defends the 1 crit rune in your rune page, I hate you.
Had my ad steal blue buff twice on me off of smiteless. Nasus is so sad without blue.
|
United States47024 Posts
On March 28 2013 16:57 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 16:32 Seuss wrote:On March 28 2013 15:12 TheYango wrote:
It would also go against their beginning of S3 goal of keeping laners from farming jungle too much, but at this point, off-laners are more starved than junglers are at those levels. Part of the problem is that Riot went about increasing the value of the jungle the wrong way. The big difference between DotA and LoL's jungles, beyond a few mechanics, is that no jungler can actually fully clear their jungle. This is important, because it means lanes can take jungle farm without reducing the income of the jungler significantly, but it also means the jungler's income increases as their ability to clear the jungle increases. The scaling jungle tries to simulate that organic increase, but doesn't do nearly as good a job while also contributing to the problem you've been analyzing. To solve your problem Riot would have to increase the number of jungle camps, remove jungle scaling, and simply operate under the assumption that junglers shouldn't be capable of clearing everything within its spawn time. It's not perfect, but it would help address the issue. Without severely changing the map layout, you could add one camp to blue side opposite the inner turret, and one more to red side jungle. Not sure on what the ramifications of it would be though, although the only champ I can think of that could concievably clear every single jungle camp as well as lane farm would be AD tryn with multiple items.
You could also weaken the buffs, but reduce their spawn times to be closer to normal camps so that they can be farmed as "normal" camps.
|
i don't even see what the problem is with 1v2 lanes. why even change it?
part of the reason i asked about 1v2s and lane switches was because i was trying to figure out when it was best to use it. another reason is because i watched a chinese team send their adc+supp mid as part of their early game tactic... i think they warded blue before creeps popped, saw that the enemy started red, and then pushed out the lane so they could get a 4v3 to contest blue buff.
i think it's too early to call the tower change premature, and who knows, maybe the 1v3 tower dive will still work, but it'll just be a lot harder. eh.
|
This isn't even going to change anything about the 2v1 meta, it'll just make turret diving a lot more annoying. Don't know if anyone actually calculates turret damage when diving but I do it 100% on feeling, so this'll throw that off completely. Bad change imo.
|
United States47024 Posts
The problem right now with 1v2s is that there isn't a whole lot of room for the 1v2 laner to actually influence what happens. 1v2/1v3 in DotA is *in theory* more suppressive, but there is actually more room for the off-laner to make plays or find other places to farm. Most of the options for alternative gameplay on the part of the off-laner are impeded by other aspects of LoL's gameplay. So by and large, the off-laner is at the whims of the enemy and the rest of his team, and doesn't have much room to improve his situation on his own.
At this point, I feel like Riot is at an impasse, because as it stands right now, off-laning is very non-interactive, and any of the options to make it more interactive would go against other design ideas put in place by Riot (massively revamping the jungle, drastically reducing early-game vision to increase the effectiveness of level 1/2 ganks from non-jungle heroes), and I worry that they may just try to get rid of the idea entirely.
|
At the ~3:00 timing.
1. Both junglers here. Have to share 3-4 waves of XP and gold, missing a lot due to harass and trying to clear it ASAP.
2. Enemy jungler here. Back off and lose several waves of XP/gold and possibly the tower. Or stay, probably get about half that XP and maybe a few minions worth of gold and probably save tower. But you'll die for it, and unless they misplay, you won't get anything.
3. Your jungler here. Without a ward, your jungler needs to hang around until the creep wave thins out and you get to level 3 to ensure you are safe. You lose XP and probably some CS.
4. Neither jungler here. You farm up and go on your merry way.
None of these are under your control, and all scenarios except 4 put you behind.
I think part of what makes it bad is there is literally nothing you can do even if you know 3 are top if your jungler is doing something else. You have access to wolves, but at level 1/2, most top laner's struggle to do it without losing too much HP, and in the time it takes to walk to wolves, you will lose tower/more xp&gold than what wolves are worth if they push.
Actually what if red/blue/minired/blue spawned every 80s, but only every 3rd camp or if 6 minutes have elasped since the last buff monster was killed would have a buff. Give them ~70% what a normal blue buff have in terms of HP/XP, but keep the gold reward the same. Then there is a choice between picking a very fast wriggles jungler who would be able to give mid lane more blues at the cost of having to spend a lot of time farming, or a slower jungler who gives lanes advantages through presence.
It also gives your solo something to do if the camp happens to be up, and the lane is either pushed, or it's too dangerous to stay.
|
Could change camp respawn times, to be faster, so there's no weird "timing gap" between waiting for camps to respawn; so there's a bigger cost for ganking after first clear.
|
they should change something about adc, its not fun to always have the same 2-4 adc champs picked cause every other adc is so bad compared to them T_T
|
On March 28 2013 17:58 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
they should change something about adc, its not fun to always have the same 2-4 adc champs picked cause every other adc is so bad compared to them T_T
It's a lot better than what it was in peak of season 2.
Pretty much all ADCs are viable right now; I don't really see the complaint.
Popularity != imbalance.
|
On March 28 2013 17:41 Amui wrote:
At the ~3:00 timing.
1. Both junglers here. Have to share 3-4 waves of XP and gold, missing a lot due to harass and trying to clear it ASAP.
2. Enemy jungler here. Back off and lose several waves of XP/gold and possibly the tower. Or stay, probably get about half that XP and maybe a few minions worth of gold and probably save tower. But you'll die for it, and unless they misplay, you won't get anything.
3. Your jungler here. Without a ward, your jungler needs to hang around until the creep wave thins out and you get to level 3 to ensure you are safe. You lose XP and probably some CS.
4. Neither jungler here. You farm up and go on your merry way.
None of these are under your control, and all scenarios except 4 put you behind.
I think part of what makes it bad is there is literally nothing you can do even if you know 3 are top if your jungler is doing something else. You have access to wolves, but at level 1/2, most top laner's struggle to do it without losing too much HP, and in the time it takes to walk to wolves, you will lose tower/more xp&gold than what wolves are worth if they push.
Actually what if red/blue/minired/blue spawned every 80s, but only every 3rd camp or if 6 minutes have elasped since the last buff monster was killed would have a buff. Give them ~70% what a normal blue buff have in terms of HP/XP, but keep the gold reward the same. Then there is a choice between picking a very fast wriggles jungler who would be able to give mid lane more blues at the cost of having to spend a lot of time farming, or a slower jungler who gives lanes advantages through presence.
It also gives your solo something to do if the camp happens to be up, and the lane is either pushed, or it's too dangerous to stay.
Except 2v1 lanes practically don't happen in solo queue, and in teamplay that means your jungler should be getting an advantage somewhere else to put the other team behind as well.
|
United States23455 Posts
Team rolling 13-3, I'm 3/1/4...AND THEN ATTEMPT TO RECONNECT?
NO.
I FINALLY ROLL A GOOD TEAM AFTER A DAY OF SHIT AND YOU DISCONNECT?
|
United States47024 Posts
On March 28 2013 18:10 Serelitz wrote:
Except 2v1 lanes practically don't happen in solo queue, and in teamplay that means your jungler should be getting an advantage somewhere else to put the other team behind as well.
It's still a fundamental gameplay problem if a common gameplay scenario is so non-interactive for one player in the game. Riot has expressed dislike for that sort of thing in the past. That it's not played in solo queue, or that one of your teammates can do something to compensate is irrelevant to the issue.
Like if two teams are both 3v1 diving on opposite sides of the map, it's "balanced" but the gameplay of the situation is equally shitty for both off-laners.
|
On March 28 2013 18:17 Fionn wrote:
Team rolling 13-3, I'm 3/1/4...AND THEN ATTEMPT TO RECONNECT?
NO.
I FINALLY ROLL A GOOD TEAM AFTER A DAY OF SHIT AND YOU DISCONNECT?
Take it to the QQ thread, you should know better!
|
On March 28 2013 11:09 xes wrote:
Good lunar Diana sir it is patch 3.05 sir
Actually, it really is 3.5 ;P
Gonna go try me sum Udyr, used to be my favorite character besides Skarner in S2, but both got shafted hard in S3
Hope the patch is live on EUNE
|
On March 28 2013 18:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 18:10 Serelitz wrote:
Except 2v1 lanes practically don't happen in solo queue, and in teamplay that means your jungler should be getting an advantage somewhere else to put the other team behind as well. It's still a fundamental gameplay problem if a common gameplay scenario is so non-interactive for one player in the game. Riot has expressed dislike for that sort of thing in the past. That it's not played in solo queue, or that one of your teammates can do something to compensate is irrelevant to the issue. Like if two teams are both 3v1 diving on opposite sides of the map, it's "balanced" but the gameplay of the situation is equally shitty for both off-laners.
How is it irrelevant to the issue? There's plenty times that you're dependant on your teammates to help out your team, even back when it was higher level tower dives and your team picking up a dragon as a trade. Having to depend on your team isn't a bad thing whatsoever.
Besides, you're talking as if 3v1 dives are impossible to stop. It's by far not as common in Asia anymore because they've practiced against it and know how to prevent it, not just 'trade towers' like is happening in NA/EU LCS.
On the other hand, this change will affect every aspect of league, especially solo Q, whereas it's probably not even going to make a difference for professional 2v1 lanes.
|
Ahhh I want to try new Karma but can't for like another week. -_-;
|
On March 28 2013 13:05 thenexusp wrote:
Just a note, nashor's tooth is now at the same cost it used to be before its mp5 was removed, except it still doesn't have mp5.
no AP Varus anymore for me!! ^^ nashor's too expensive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
