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On March 28 2013 13:00 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 12:41 OutlaW- wrote:On March 28 2013 12:37 TheYango wrote:
Right but that forces the off-laner to rely on his jungler. There is no opportunity for the off-laner to be the playmaker, which is why the situation feels so shitty from the off-laner's perspective because it feels like they have no control over the situation. I know, I wasn't disagreeing with you. There are many things wrong with this game. You should be able to outplay people somehow but it's not really possible. Things like trees to juke around (especially that hiding spot behind the turrets) and TP scrolls would be helpful. Dis isn't dotar. And I thought DotA turrets did less damage. And that 2v1 and tri lanes were designed to shut people down harder. If your enemy team is coordinated enough to go all 3 to a tower, and your jungler is not coordinated enough to help then they deserve the tower. You shouldn't be able to outplay everyone in a 1v3. If you really need the low level options then one thing that Age of Empires 3 did was it let you pick your deck (think summoners and masteries) any time in the game but then you'd be locked into your deck. You weren't able to use any cards too early anyways because you needed experience. If players found themselves in a 1v2 they could similarly swap masteries to be more tanky and have barrier and flash to be more defensive. The artificial method of buffing towers is just dumb. Wasn't fortify removed because it made tower dives impossible?
Don't you think that there are way too few situations in League where you can outplay (in other words, outskill) your opponent? I feel like all you do is not die and take objectives with your team. Bot and top lane are good places to actually be aggressive, but that never happens anymore in LCS, and a part of me always still feels like I should be able to do more stuff that requires skill to execute, not just "correct decisions".
I suppose that in this case, it's just me being used to starcraft and dota, the former where mechanical skill is actually required to play the game decently and the latter where heroes can go from carrying games by themselves to dying and dealing 0 damage (like on sf)
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On March 28 2013 12:57 docvoc wrote:
New patch seems to be a bit of a radical change this early into S3. I see that Riot doesn't like the new meta of lvl3 ganks, but they have to realize that people are going to prioritize aggressive play that snowballs. I liked when lvl2 ganks were a big part of the meta, and I liked the new 3 man lvl 3 gank top or bot and take turret meta. What I don't want is a no-push-50-meta that would stall the game, like the phase DotA went through a long while ago; that would make me quit LoL immidiately lol.
No-push-50 in League would be a billion times worse, because the map layout just doesn't allow for the amount of plays that don't involve pushing/objective control that DotA's does. That time in Chinese DotA still involved a lot of map movement and skirmishing, the same 'meta' in League would involve a lot of static farming in all 3 lanes.
*I don't mean this as a gamewide DotA vs League argument, just a specific case observation.
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On March 28 2013 12:37 TheYango wrote:
Right but that forces the off-laner to rely on his jungler. There is no opportunity for the off-laner to be the playmaker, which is why the situation feels so shitty from the off-laner's perspective because it feels like they have no control over the situation.
I think I've seen games where the jungler comes to help and he gets killed too.
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On March 28 2013 13:09 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 13:00 obesechicken13 wrote:
Wasn't fortify removed because it made tower dives impossible? I thought it was removed because practically no one used it ever.
That sounds more correct tbh
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Don't mind the Turret change. It was pretty much guaranteed (at the pro level) tower and kill if the player stayed and fought. Level 3 triple gank will still be strong, the change isn't huge, it just makes it more likely that there will be situations where a lone hero/duo combo will be able to make a play by defending the tower, getting a kill and stopping the push.
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On March 28 2013 14:11 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 13:09 overt wrote:On March 28 2013 13:00 obesechicken13 wrote:
Wasn't fortify removed because it made tower dives impossible? I thought it was removed because practically no one used it ever. That sounds more correct tbh
And they didn't even remove it. Just put it onto an item, that still no one uses lol.
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United States23745 Posts
On March 28 2013 14:29 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 14:11 arb wrote:On March 28 2013 13:09 overt wrote:On March 28 2013 13:00 obesechicken13 wrote:
Wasn't fortify removed because it made tower dives impossible? I thought it was removed because practically no one used it ever. That sounds more correct tbh And they didn't even remove it. Just put it onto an item, that still no one uses lol.
You're thinking of Promote, Fortify was a summoner spell that was a global buff to turrets that made them fire faster for a couple seconds.
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United States47024 Posts
I don't think Riot's heart is in the wrong place with the turret change, but I don't think it addresses the issue, which is that there aren't enough options for off-laners to not feel helpless early game. If there were other options for them to farm/make plays it would diversify potential off-lane gameplay.
Admittedly, Riot probably hasn't really thought out the details of 1v2 gameplay because it's fairly new to how the game functions at the moment.
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On March 28 2013 14:36 TheYango wrote:
I don't think Riot's heart is in the wrong place with the turret change, but I don't think it addresses the issue, which is that there aren't enough options for off-laners to not feel helpless early game. If there were other options for them to farm/make plays it would diversify potential off-lane gameplay.
Admittedly, Riot probably hasn't really thought out the details of 1v2 gameplay because it's fairly new to how the game functions at the moment.
I mean what else can Riot do to make people stop doing 1v2 lanes or make it easier on the solo guy. Give him a buff, if hes against 2 lane opponents (WoW/GW2 do this in big PvP battlegrounds for the team with less players) and make him just outright stronger? But then how in the world do you balance that amoung all the champions without making something abuseable or OP. That would seem incredibly hard to do without making a ton of restraints and hoops to jump through to implement something like that.
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United States47024 Posts
Increase the gold available in the jungle to allow the off-laner to get farm if he can't go to lane without starving the jungler, reduce potential for early vision control (utility ward mastery, some sort of limit on wards being bought) to increase the effectiveness of possible level 1/2 ganks even from non-jungle heroes (also introduces the possibility of roaming supports as an alternative to 2v1).
If you increase the possibilities for low level map movement from the support and the off-laner, you open up a lot of possiblilities because suddenly the abiilty to countergank/fight uneven fights goes up a lot. But right now that's restricted by how much early map vision a team's starting wards can give them, and by the inability for an off-laner who can't actually farm in lane to get level 2 reliably.
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Increasing the gold in the jungle throws off Riot's vision/design. If you noticed, jungle gold has not changed substantially through seasons despite all of Riot's "sweet talk"
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United States47024 Posts
It would also go against their beginning of S3 goal of keeping laners from farming jungle too much, but at this point, off-laners are more starved than junglers are at those levels.
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On March 28 2013 15:09 cascades wrote:
Increasing the gold in the jungle throws off Riot's vision/design. If you noticed, jungle gold has not changed substantially through seasons despite all of Riot's "sweet talk"
It has gone down over time, actually.
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The more the streamer feeds, the funnier the stream gets, true story.
scarra 2-12 teemo, funniest shit ever
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well, why buff turrets to fight the symptoms of 1v2 lanes when you could fight the causes of the boring 1v2 lanes?
always those shorthsighted changes.
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The only two champs I can think of that benefit from playing against more enemies are Wukong (passive resists) and Irelia (passive tenacity).
That said, I don't know if it makes them stronger than any other 1v2 champs.
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G0atsebusters' master plan:
1. Get new account to lvl 30
2. Lose placements and end up in bronze V
3. Stomp noobs and increase mmr
4. Dodge placement games (doesn't affect mmr)
5. Repeat 3+4
6. Keep increasing mmr while still bronze V
7. Wait for the reactions when diamond players realize their captain is a bronze V player
8. Report anyone who harasses you along the way
(Optional: play jungle morg every game for moar lulz)
You have made the league community a better place!
Thoughts?
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On March 28 2013 15:41 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 15:09 cascades wrote:
Increasing the gold in the jungle throws off Riot's vision/design. If you noticed, jungle gold has not changed substantially through seasons despite all of Riot's "sweet talk" It has gone down over time, actually.
Right. I believe actual s3 jungle gold has gone up, but efficient s3 jungle gold has gone down due to needing to spend money on machete and more pots. I am not sure so correct me if I am wrong.
Either way, you have to find another way that doesn't go against this unstated law of Riot's. I am fairly certain Riot doesn't consider it that big a problem to violate their tenets- as long as it doesn't spread over to non competitive play. (not likely)
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On March 28 2013 12:46 HazMat wrote:
No Lee Sin buff k
man i love lee sin i cry everytime i see no changes to him, its most fun champion in game but theres literally no reason to play him right now over any other jungler/toplaner
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On March 28 2013 15:12 TheYango wrote:
It would also go against their beginning of S3 goal of keeping laners from farming jungle too much, but at this point, off-laners are more starved than junglers are at those levels.
Part of the problem is that Riot went about increasing the value of the jungle the wrong way. The big difference between DotA and LoL's jungles, beyond a few mechanics, is that no jungler can actually fully clear their jungle. This is important, because it means lanes can take jungle farm without reducing the income of the jungler significantly, but it also means the jungler's income increases as their ability to clear the jungle increases.
The scaling jungle tries to simulate that organic increase, but doesn't do nearly as good a job while also contributing to the problem you've been analyzing. To solve your problem Riot would have to increase the number of jungle camps, remove jungle scaling, and simply operate under the assumption that junglers shouldn't be capable of clearing everything within its spawn time. It's not perfect, but it would help address the issue.
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EPT
