EPTSomething like Zeal+Vamp + 600G = 40 AS, 15% Crit, 10 AD, 15% LS (and maybe a funky passive with a cool animation). Of course, because of the odd S3 vamp scepter change that is too many stat categories for one item.
[Patch 3.03: Quinn] General Discussion - Page 61
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Something like Zeal+Vamp + 600G = 40 AS, 15% Crit, 10 AD, 15% LS (and maybe a funky passive with a cool animation). Of course, because of the odd S3 vamp scepter change that is too many stat categories for one item. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 06 2013 11:38 Sermokala wrote: But thats not the point of being an adc. If you go boots bortk bt lw defensive item that means what you only have one crit item? It won't have anything to synergyze with and there won't be a point to getting it at all. You only have space for one lifesteal item in your build and bt is better then bortk. dancer and lw are better second items for adc timings. I suppose it depends on the team you're with and playing against. But generally graves doesn't get IE until last because graves is an early ADC. If you feel that your team is generally more lategame focused then yea, you build different, but if you feel your team is generally more lategame focused then you probably shouldn't get BT first on graves, you should get it last. Edit: And you shouldn't have picked graves for that team comp. Though this does happen due to how drafting plays out. Its the general case that I am talking about. BotRK, BT, LW does more AA DPS than BT,PD,LW. Its more consistent DPS, it provides a very strong active for peel, it provides more sustain, and it provides more ability damage. I.E. if you choose BT first then given the item paths PD,LW or BotRK, LW your optimal path is BotRK, LW. Yes you will be weaker once you get to BT, BotRK, LW, IE. But with graves you don't really get there, you are a mid game carry and, due to your short range you really can't get away with those items. Since you get the IE last it either means its your 5th item before your defensive item or your last item. If its your fifth item your team better be amazing at peel because with only 525 range you are prime pickings. Its kind of like why MF often gets an early BC or LW. MF isn't building the cleaver for auto attack DPS, that is clearly maximized by IE,PD,LW,BT.... she is build for her ult. The fact that her AA DPS is still high once she stacks those AD items is basically a bonus. Graves is the same way except that he doesn't have an easy shred opportunity in his ultimate, so BC is not efficient on him and Graves has high enough scaling relative to base damage that BT does more damage than LW early (so long as you buy a scepter for the whisper). So we know we're starting out with BT and then we choose our next item based on our optimal two and three item timing. That item is BotRK. So, while it is true that BT,PD,LW,IE is stronger than BT,BotRK,LW,IE we aren't building graves based on the DPS he does once he has the full combo, we are building graves for the damage he does with an early gold timing edit: Beaten Also wanted to comment on this Alaric Wrote: The way I see it, on AD scaling carries like MF, Graves, Sivir, starting BT+BotRK is viable if you plan around abusing that timing window and how much stronger you'll be than your counterpart, both from naturally maxing out damage spells and from having items that scale better with your spells than your opponent's (see Trist's midgame). I actually don't think its as powerful on MF and Sivir. For MF because of the low CD on double up and her amazing physical and base AD scaling i will often forgo AS all together. Ditto Sivir. With a 3 second CD on ricochet she doesn't really need the attack speed and if she does she can ult. They also have better base AS and scaling as compared to graves, which gives them a bit of edge on the usability department. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On March 06 2013 13:10 Alaric wrote: Edit: ^ if you see somebody build that then you diverge from your usual build to get a LW. Assuming people will farm up to 6 items without reacting to their opponent is... oh, yeah. It's soloQ. Right. :/ You could argue that point in circles though. If the tank notices you building his build they will build armor. If you see them build armor you don't make that build, so they don't build armor, so you do that build, so they build armor.......... Basically, it's not a good build, it's easily countered with very common and practical items and auras. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
On March 06 2013 13:23 red_ wrote: You could argue that point in circles though. If the tank notices you building his build they will build armor. If you see them build armor you don't make that build, so they don't build armor, so you do that build, so they build armor.......... Basically, it's not a good build, it's easily countered with very common and practical items and auras. I'm not quite so sure about that. The as from bortk makes the as reduction from omen and fh a wash (it probably helps with the soft cap penalty you get from higher as) and the base damage is just so high as it is with the burst from graves ult q and the bortk active its not unheard of to imagine you just vollying though the 2100 ehp buffer that omen and fh give a brusier. Not to mention how much of a sitting duck they'll be when you dash away steal their ms and melt them away with impunity all the while regening any damage you took from them building no damage. bortk bt is a ton of regen no matter how you look at it. not to mention the ap carry having a special target that only built 500 health against him. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On March 06 2013 13:44 Alaric wrote: What's the AS soft cap you've been talking about several times? I read the wiki last time, and it didn't mention anything of that sort. When buying AS becomes a waste of time. Kinda like the softcaps for MS. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 06 2013 13:44 Alaric wrote: What's the AS soft cap you've been talking about several times? I read the wiki last time, and it didn't mention anything of that sort. The idea is that at some point, if you're relocating between shots, having more attack speed doesn't matter because you can't stand still long enough (without dying) to utilize the attack speed. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On March 06 2013 13:48 Gahlo wrote: When buying AS becomes a waste of time. Kinda like the softcaps for MS. Well AS has a hardcap so IDK what you are talking about. The thing that kills AS really is a few things: 1) It always scales off your crappy lvl 1 AS 2) AS reduction effects scale off your current attack speed, so Randiuns craps on it much harder than PD buffs it at lvl 18. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 06 2013 13:31 Sermokala wrote: I'm not quite so sure about that. The as from bortk makes the as reduction from omen and fh a wash (it probably helps with the soft cap penalty you get from higher as) and the base damage is just so high as it is with the burst from graves ult q and the bortk active its not unheard of to imagine you just vollying though the 2100 ehp buffer that omen and fh give a brusier. Not to mention how much of a sitting duck they'll be when you dash away steal their ms and melt them away with impunity all the while regening any damage you took from them building no damage. bortk bt is a ton of regen no matter how you look at it. not to mention the ap carry having a special target that only built 500 health against him. Well, attack speed reductions are multiplicative, so there is no "wash" from items. Its just a raw DPS reduction. If you're doing more DPS with that build before AS reduction you will do more after AS reduction. That being said, i don't like LW'less builds. The vast majority of champions will have two or three things come lategame 1) Flat Armor Yellows 2) Some form of armor item 3) Aegis Aura/Other armor aura 4) Ancillary armor from an ability The lategame break point where LW is the most efficient damaging item (assuming you have 2-4 AD multiplicative items) is like 100. And those 4 properties all come together to say "everyone has 100 armor". The reason that the best three item timing is IE,PD,LW is not because BT is bad, its because LW does more damage at all reasonable armor values once you have IE and PD. Once you have BT and BotRK it likely does more damage than IE for all armor values (though i am not quite sure) That being said you to have to worry about that build are armor stacking is just a bad idea. Its not even that you can counter it, its that your allies can counter it for you, with Black Cleaver. Riot really screwed the pooch when they made Cleaver % penetration (and when they switched the way pen stacked) because it ruined the traditional counter building. Previously if an enemy ADC got fed, even if they had LW the best counter was armor.(just because of the relative availability of health and armor items). Now if an enemy physical damage champion gets fed the best counter is health... So you build the same thing regardless of what happens on the enemy team. | ||
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FR4CT4L
Australia697 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On March 06 2013 13:55 cLutZ wrote: Well AS has a hardcap so IDK what you are talking about. The thing that kills AS really is a few things: 1) It always scales off your crappy lvl 1 AS 2) AS reduction effects scale off your current attack speed, so Randiuns craps on it much harder than PD buffs it at lvl 18. It was answered above you. On March 06 2013 14:04 FR4CT4L wrote: Seeing as we are talking about ranged carries. Why is dblade start a thing now? Is 5hp per auto really enough sustain to take you through early laning? How does it compare to the old Longsword + 2 pot? After 60 autos it makes up the health that 2pot provides while keeping the bonus health and minor life onhit. It's a risk reward thing. You pay "more" for Dorans, but it's more stable assuming you don't get zoned to hell and back. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 06 2013 14:04 FR4CT4L wrote: Seeing as we are talking about ranged carries. Why is dblade start a thing now? Is 5hp per auto really enough sustain to take you through early laning? How does it compare to the old Longsword + 2 pot? This has been discussed a million times. It takes 44 autoattacks for DBlade to surpass Longsword+2Pot's total HP gain. That's less than 4 minutes of JUST lasthitting, and since you attack far more than just lasthits (right clicking creeps to push the lane, trading attacks with enemy AD), you realistically surpass Longsword+2Pot healing within 2 or 3 minutes. If you somehow are in a position where you needed to back after only 2-3 minutes, then Longsword+2Pot wouldn't have been enough anyway. Korean teams recognized this almost immediately in S3, and the rest of the world quickly caught on. There are other starts that can contend with DBlade (e.g. Flask is situationally nice), but Longsword isn't one of them. On March 06 2013 14:07 Gahlo wrote: After 60 autos it makes up the health that 2pot provides while keeping the bonus health and minor life onhit. It's a risk reward thing. You pay "more" for Dorans, but it's more stable assuming you don't get zoned to hell and back. Realistically if you're at the point where you can't autoattack and need to pot aggressively after 2-3 minutes, then Longsword+2Pot wasn't going to be enough either and you should have started an even more defensive start with Cloth or Flask + even more pots. I can't see a situation where Longsword would be the most appropriate start. Any scenario where Longsword would be "better" than DBlade, an even more defensive start than Longsword would be better than that. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On March 06 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote: This has been discussed a million times. It takes 44 autoattacks for DBlade to surpass Longsword+2Pot's total HP gain. That's less than 4 minutes of JUST lasthitting, and since you attack far more than just lasthits (right clicking creeps to push the lane, trading attacks with enemy AD), you realistically surpass Longsword+2Pot healing within 2 or 3 minutes. If you somehow are in a position where you needed to back after only 2-3 minutes, then Longsword+2Pot wouldn't have been enough anyway. Korean teams recognized this almost immediately in S3, and the rest of the world quickly caught on. There are other starts that can contend with DBlade (e.g. Flask is situationally nice), but Longsword isn't one of them. Realistically if you're at the point where you can't autoattack and need to pot aggressively after 2-3 minutes, then Longsword+2Pot wasn't going to be enough either and you should have started an even more defensive start with Cloth or Flask + even more pots. I can't see a situation where Longsword would be the most appropriate start. Any scenario where Longsword would be "better" than DBlade, an even more defensive start than Longsword would be better than that. Can a LS lane take advantage of a Dblade lane by forcing trades (ala S2 Boots3 vs. Dblade)? Or is the HP gain plenty to make that almost irrelevant? | ||
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FR4CT4L
Australia697 Posts
On March 06 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote: This has been discussed a million times. It takes 44 autoattacks for DBlade to surpass Longsword+2Pot's total HP gain. That's less than 4 minutes of JUST lasthitting, and since you attack far more than just lasthits (right clicking creeps to push the lane, trading attacks with enemy AD), you realistically surpass Longsword+2Pot healing within 2 or 3 minutes. If you somehow are in a position where you needed to back after only 2-3 minutes, then Longsword+2Pot wouldn't have been enough anyway. Korean teams recognized this almost immediately in S3, and the rest of the world quickly caught on. There are other starts that can contend with DBlade (e.g. Flask is situationally nice), but Longsword isn't one of them. Since your around I have another query then. Can you still take an aggressive ad + support and try to force them out of lane if they start Dblade? Like say Red Elixer MF + Taric or something and just go nuts level 2 to force a back? | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 06 2013 14:19 cLutZ wrote: Can a LS lane take advantage of a Dblade lane by forcing trades (ala S2 Boots3 vs. Dblade)? Or is the HP gain plenty to make that almost irrelevant? Yes but the situation is more or less irrelevant unless you win so hard that you want the item advantage from not having to buy non-core build items. Most of the time the threat of all ins and jungler ganks where you may need the extra 80 max HP from the dorans outweighs the disadvantage of having to sell it later. This is because the situations in which you don't win the lane by default are situations in which you win the lane just as hard or harder with a more defensive start. And, since you have to consider that he may play LS+2 or a more defensive start then your best option is to also go for a more defensive start. Edit: Basically if you win trades you might as well go Dblade. If you lose or go even in trades you might as well go defensive. | ||
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fasdaf
138 Posts
On March 06 2013 13:55 cLutZ wrote: Well AS has a hardcap so IDK what you are talking about. The thing that kills AS really is a few things: 1) It always scales off your crappy lvl 1 AS 2) AS reduction effects scale off your current attack speed, so Randiuns craps on it much harder than PD buffs it at lvl 18. Randuin's Omen's attack speed debuff from the passive is additive, not multiplicative, unless it was changed this season. Honestly, all the complaints about its attack speed debuff are misplaced, since 20% really isn't all that much especially compared to the impact of the guaranteed movement speed slow (and it lost its ridiculously strong active attack speed slow too). | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On March 06 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote: This has been discussed a million times. It takes 44 autoattacks for DBlade to surpass Longsword+2Pot's total HP gain. That's less than 4 minutes of JUST lasthitting, and since you attack far more than just lasthits (right clicking creeps to push the lane, trading attacks with enemy AD), you realistically surpass Longsword+2Pot healing within 2 or 3 minutes. If you somehow are in a position where you needed to back after only 2-3 minutes, then Longsword+2Pot wouldn't have been enough anyway. Korean teams recognized this almost immediately in S3, and the rest of the world quickly caught on. There are other starts that can contend with DBlade (e.g. Flask is situationally nice), but Longsword isn't one of them. Realistically if you're at the point where you can't autoattack and need to pot aggressively after 2-3 minutes, then Longsword+2Pot wasn't going to be enough either and you should have started an even more defensive start with Cloth or Flask + even more pots. I can't see a situation where Longsword would be the most appropriate start. Any scenario where Longsword would be "better" than DBlade, an even more defensive start than Longsword would be better than that. LS does get you to bligewater 400g sooner, but yeah doran's starts are generally superior | ||
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Ezkaton
Japan416 Posts
Keep in mind he didnt have flash, nor did I deactivate the wall and he still took damage from the dunk . I just ulted him and he was all like NO I'M SINGED and just walked on out of there. The next game I had the exact same thing happen but this time it was a Vladimir :/ Has anyone else encountered this or am I just so retarded at this game I can miss Jarvan ults  | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 06 2013 14:39 Ezkaton wrote: So I was Jarvan last night in a game. I ulted this singed on 3 different occasions and every time he just walked out of my ultimate. Keep in mind he didnt have flash, nor did I deactivate the wall and he still took damage from the dunk . I just ulted him and he was all like NO I'M SINGED and just walked on out of there. The next game I had the exact same thing happen but this time it was a Vladimir :/ Has anyone else encountered this or am I just so retarded at this game I can miss Jarvan ults I miss J4 ults all the time, but usually its because someone flashed during the animation. Never seen anyone just waltz out before. | ||
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