EPT[Patch 3.03: Quinn] General Discussion - Page 60
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
For Junglers, I've been having a lot of success with Nasus lately. I almost feel silly that I didn't try this until I saw Diamond do it. @_@ It's ok, people still rage at me for picking jungle nasus even in normals, and you wouldn't believe the shit I got for it before it showed up in pro play. There's such a wall against metabreaking in normal league that there's not much point thinking creatively because you'll just get called a troll even if you carry. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
On March 06 2013 10:42 Goumindong wrote: Because BotRK generally does more auto attack damage than dancer if you don't have crit itemized for yet(I.E. you don't have IE) to a break point of around 850 HP(little bit worse now with its nerfs, a little bit better on graves due to his attack speed buff). Because it still has its active. Because the extra AD increases the damage of your burst and ability damage. Because Graves, as a two/three item timing ADC tends to get defenses before he gets crit and itemizing for the full lategame tends to be inefficient for a mid game carry who won't get his IE until his last item (4th item defensive assumed) BT,BotRK,LW, Defensive Item is the assumed build path, with boots somewhere in there. That is why you get BotRK second. But thats not the point of being an adc. If you go boots bortk bt lw defensive item that means what you only have one crit item? It won't have anything to synergyze with and there won't be a point to getting it at all. You only have space for one lifesteal item in your build and bt is better then bortk. dancer and lw are better second items for adc timings. | ||
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
I personally dont like Botrk on Vayne its such a weak laning phase item that it stops her from picking up the crucial level 9-13 kills. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On March 06 2013 11:38 Sermokala wrote: But thats not the point of being an adc. If you go boots bortk bt lw defensive item that means what you only have one crit item? It won't have anything to synergyze with and there won't be a point to getting it at all. You only have space for one lifesteal item in your build and bt is better then bortk. dancer and lw are better second items for adc timings. This is actually a good point. Why get a crit item on Graves at all? BT > BotRK > LW > Randuins > Mercurial Scimitar With all that health, lifesteal and armor/mr you'd be one badass motherfucker. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
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zodde
Sweden1908 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
To to places like surrenderat20 to keep up on stuff. | ||
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 06 2013 11:38 Sermokala wrote: But thats not the point of being an adc. If you go boots bortk bt lw defensive item that means what you only have one crit item? It won't have anything to synergyze with and there won't be a point to getting it at all. You only have space for one lifesteal item in your build and bt is better then bortk. dancer and lw are better second items for adc timings. His logic is actually pretty sound. Dancer is stronger at the point of the 3rd or 4th item timing, but Graves as an AD isn't as geared around those timings as other ADs. BotRK second item allows you to get an advantage earlier, and hit those later item timings sooner, so even though you are weaker at 4th item than you would otherwise be, being able to leverage a stronger 2-item timing allows you to be at 4 items earlier, which means your relative strength may be higher. "adc timings" isn't something that's fixed. It depends highly on the game what kind of gameplan you want to push for, so BotRK still has a place as a second item at least in some games. It depends on the teamcomps and how the game plays out. On March 06 2013 11:49 Ketara wrote: This is actually a good point. Why get a crit item on Graves at all? BT > BotRK > LW > Randuins > Mercurial Scimitar With all that health, lifesteal and armor/mr you'd be one badass motherfucker. Because transitioning onto crit is still stronger in the long run, but at the immediate point of 2 items, BotRK provides more damage than Dancer. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
thinking about it going bt avarice bortk defensive shiv ie graves may just be the sexiest thing I've seen all week. this needs testing but I propose the possibility of bortk replacing lw as an anti tank item. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On March 06 2013 12:27 Sermokala wrote: But it brings up some painful gaps in end game building. You want a dancer(shiv) ie lw boots. that only leaves 2 items and you want a defensive item in solo q which means you only have 1 item to chose to get first to get out of that rut. Somethings gotta give. thinking about it going bt avarice bortk defensive shiv ie graves may just be the sexiest thing I've seen all week. this needs testing but I propose the possibility of bortk replacing lw as an anti tank item. And then someone builds FH+Randuins and you literally do nothing to them. Your move, no LW having guy. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I don't see a problem with not building crit... as long as it doesn't get to the point where crit dps will take over AD+blade's passive dps. At some point in s2 a super popular build for Ezreal was bruta+sheen because it was so powerful early on. Then people would go "but if you don't get super ahead with that, and/or miss a midgame timing, you'll be behind on your other core items so you have to convert your early itemisation choices". Eventually the reward was deemed unworthy of the risks and this opener was cast aside, but that's still more or less how triforce Ez/Corki were seen: "super stronger in the midgame but you have to obtain a lead from it because you'll be weaker late". The way I see it, on AD scaling carries like MF, Graves, Sivir, starting BT+BotRK is viable if you plan around abusing that timing window and how much stronger you'll be than your counterpart, both from naturally maxing out damage spells and from having items that scale better with your spells than your opponent's (see Trist's midgame). However, BT+BotRK is 6400 gold, IE+PD is 6600 gold and IE+Shiv is 6300 gold, meaning that to use such a combo efficiently you'd have to start leveraging your advantage very early, for example as soon as you have a BFS+vamp if your opponent forgoes the vamp himself (otherwise you can add 800 gold to the above prices), or worst case when you complete BT and he doesn't have IE yet. Even then, Zeal's cost-effectiveness will play into your opponent's hand since Cutlass is such a weak item now, doubly when starting BT which reduces the value of its lifesteal, the item's main component. Or you start with the dagger and then build the rest of the item but even then it seems pretty awkward. TL;DR: I think BT+BotRK is worth trying on some champs, but you have to keep in mind that you're aiming at a 2-items midgame timing and that you have to leverage a significant advantage early on to overpower your opponent and either cripple him or close the game before he catches up to his core. To these ends, the "worst" part of the BotRK hotfix isn't the AD reduction or active's nerf, but the increase in price that makes you much more dependant on power timings because gold-wise the build won't open a window the way starting BT against IE did in s2. I think it's "worth trying" but I don't think it will be considered "solidly better"; I do think however, contrary to VayneAuthority, that it may work better in competitive play because organised teams will have an easier time creating such a disparity, and then feeding on it, all while having designed a plan/comp around it. | ||
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iinsom
Australia339 Posts
On March 06 2013 11:53 Sermokala wrote: Except you'd have no crit to take over a game. It would be cool for a top graves or a mid graves but an adc needs crit to take over a game after 40 minutes and melt down brusiers and tanks with impunity. Your an adc not a brusier. Isnt that the point of getting Botrk though? To take down the tanky champs? | ||
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