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Thing is, Gunblade is pretty much a defunct item at this point. After playing enough Jax, I came to the conclusion that BotRK and IBG are comparable to Gunblade (for the purposes of Jax), while being cheaper and having stats that are just as good. And now BotRK is even better than it was.
I honestly don't understand Riot's logic. Do they have anyone that plays Jax? Because they probably would have said something to the effect of "BotRK is already better than Gunblade for Jax due to the cost difference. Why make BotRK better while keeping the cost the same? No one but Jax and Akali use Gunblade at this point."
Akali doesn't really need to get Gunblade either, WOTA and Spectral Wraith exist.
BotRK is way too similar to Gunblade thematically, and they've just made it better in every regard at this point. It'd be easier to just scrap Gunblade and make a new hybrid item, in my opinion.
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United States47024 Posts
The thing is "hybrid items" epitomize that bad design which they used as reasoning to scrap Innervating Locket in the first place because by nature they're only going to be useful on those hybrid champions unless they're far past the point of reason on the cost-effectiveness curve.
Then of course, you also have to ask the question--what's the purpose of a hybrid kit if you're going to design hybrid items especially for them? Presumably the reason hybrid champions exist is to explore the itemization dichotomy between AP and AD items, but when you design hybrid items specifically for those champs, it no longer becomes sensible to explore that dichotomy when they're "supposed" to be buying the hybrid items. Instead of having branching itemization options based on AD/AP variants, you have a linear build path along the hybrid items, so its more of the same again.
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On March 05 2013 07:37 zer0das wrote:
Thing is, Gunblade is pretty much a defunct item at this point. After playing enough Jax, I came to the conclusion that BotRK and IBG are comparable to Gunblade, while being cheaper and having stats that are just as good. And now BotRK is even better than it was.
I honestly don't understand Riot's logic. Do they have anyone that plays Jax? Because they probably would have said something to the effect of "BotRK is already better than Gunblade for Jax due to the cost difference. Why make BotRK better while keeping the cost the same? No one but Jax and Akali use Gunblade at this point."
Akali doesn't really need to get Gunblade either, WOTA and Spectral Wraith exist.
BotRK is way too similar to Gunblade thematically, and they've just made it better in every regard at this point. It'd be easier to just scrap Gunblade and make a new hybrid item, in my opinion.
Neither WoTa or Spectral wraith as slot efficient as gunblade, also neither have "play" making potential like gunblade. If you watch voyboy play akali; pretty much every time cooldown is up for gunblade, he instantly tries to make something happen.
On March 05 2013 07:44 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 07:36 wei2coolman wrote:On March 05 2013 07:31 Seuss wrote:On March 05 2013 07:19 wei2coolman wrote:On March 05 2013 07:12 sylverfyre wrote:On March 05 2013 06:59 wei2coolman wrote:On March 05 2013 06:58 TheYango wrote:On March 05 2013 06:24 zer0das wrote:On March 05 2013 06:07 Lounge wrote:
I think they could get away with splitting it into two items. One with attack speed and the health/life steal passive on hit, and the other with the active and AD. The second one exists, it is called Gunblade. Still a good item, just no reason to build it now that Botrk exists, unless you're Akali. Even then... It's actually sort of funny that Gunblade is still in the game, because for a long time it epitomized the design "must-buy on the people who get it, useless on those who don't"--something which Riot cited as bad design and used as their reasoning for removing Innervating Locket from the game. By that reasoning, Gunblade really should have just been removed from the game rather than being nerfed to where it is now. But.... my akali..... But if gunblade were removed, akali wouldn't be in the awkward position of "If she does too much damage, she is also completely unkillable unless CC'd because of how much life she gains while murdering everyone." On March 05 2013 07:09 Nos- wrote:
I'm just saying bligewater existed as a parallel for this ad DFG you guys are all talking about. It's viability is a totally different matter. It did 150 damage. A nuke has to do damage before it's worth taking into consideration for anything. Yeah, but if gunblade were removed, akali wouldn't be in any position. If Gunblade were removed everyone would realize that Spectral Wraith exists, is 1400g cheaper, and doesn't have a 2200g deadzone. Gundblade doesn't really have a dead zone imo, especially on akali. Also, gunblade is more slot efficient over spectral wraith. Cutlass really doesn't give much to Akali. And its nerf makes it even more unappealing because it mostly gives lifesteal now, not AD (which is good on Akali because it translates to spellvamp).
You underestimate the active on cutlass. Also; lifesteal not a terrible thing on akali, she still does a decent amount of physical damage.
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On March 05 2013 07:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 07:31 Seuss wrote:On March 05 2013 07:19 wei2coolman wrote:On March 05 2013 07:12 sylverfyre wrote:On March 05 2013 06:59 wei2coolman wrote:On March 05 2013 06:58 TheYango wrote:On March 05 2013 06:24 zer0das wrote:On March 05 2013 06:07 Lounge wrote:
I think they could get away with splitting it into two items. One with attack speed and the health/life steal passive on hit, and the other with the active and AD. The second one exists, it is called Gunblade. Still a good item, just no reason to build it now that Botrk exists, unless you're Akali. Even then... It's actually sort of funny that Gunblade is still in the game, because for a long time it epitomized the design "must-buy on the people who get it, useless on those who don't"--something which Riot cited as bad design and used as their reasoning for removing Innervating Locket from the game. By that reasoning, Gunblade really should have just been removed from the game rather than being nerfed to where it is now. But.... my akali..... But if gunblade were removed, akali wouldn't be in the awkward position of "If she does too much damage, she is also completely unkillable unless CC'd because of how much life she gains while murdering everyone." On March 05 2013 07:09 Nos- wrote:
I'm just saying bligewater existed as a parallel for this ad DFG you guys are all talking about. It's viability is a totally different matter. It did 150 damage. A nuke has to do damage before it's worth taking into consideration for anything. Yeah, but if gunblade were removed, akali wouldn't be in any position. If Gunblade were removed everyone would realize that Spectral Wraith exists, is 1400g cheaper, and doesn't have a 2200g deadzone. Gundblade doesn't really have a dead zone imo, especially on akali. Also, gunblade is more slot efficient over spectral wraith.
Cutlass really doesn't give much to Akali. And its nerf makes it even more unappealing because it mostly gives lifesteal now, not AD (which is good on Akali because it translates to spellvamp).
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On March 05 2013 07:40 TheYango wrote:
The thing is "hybrid items" epitomize that bad design which they used as reasoning to scrap Innervating Locket in the first place because by nature they're only going to be useful on those hybrid champions unless they're far past the point of reason on the cost-effectiveness curve.
Then of course, you also have to ask the question--what's the purpose of a hybrid kit if you're going to design hybrid items especially for them? Presumably the reason hybrid champions exist is to explore the itemization dichotomy between AP and AD items, but when you design hybrid items specifically for those champs, it no longer becomes sensible to explore that dichotomy when they're "supposed" to be buying the hybrid items. Instead of having branching itemization options based on AD/AP variants, you have a linear build path along the hybrid items, so its more of the same again.
Hybrid kits had a place back before AD scaling, where you combined a bit of the burst of an AP caster with a bit of the sustained damage of an AD.
Now? No reason for them to exist since everyone and their mother has an AD ratio on their skills.
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How in the world is Randuins "secret OP" when everyone knew that it was pretty much the best overall armor item against ADCs since forever? I swear to god, it's like a third of the people that play this game suffer from collective amnesia.
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u forgot gunblade passive is always up
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On March 05 2013 07:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 07:31 Seuss wrote:On March 05 2013 07:19 wei2coolman wrote:On March 05 2013 07:12 sylverfyre wrote:On March 05 2013 06:59 wei2coolman wrote:On March 05 2013 06:58 TheYango wrote:On March 05 2013 06:24 zer0das wrote:On March 05 2013 06:07 Lounge wrote:
I think they could get away with splitting it into two items. One with attack speed and the health/life steal passive on hit, and the other with the active and AD. The second one exists, it is called Gunblade. Still a good item, just no reason to build it now that Botrk exists, unless you're Akali. Even then... It's actually sort of funny that Gunblade is still in the game, because for a long time it epitomized the design "must-buy on the people who get it, useless on those who don't"--something which Riot cited as bad design and used as their reasoning for removing Innervating Locket from the game. By that reasoning, Gunblade really should have just been removed from the game rather than being nerfed to where it is now. But.... my akali..... But if gunblade were removed, akali wouldn't be in the awkward position of "If she does too much damage, she is also completely unkillable unless CC'd because of how much life she gains while murdering everyone." On March 05 2013 07:09 Nos- wrote:
I'm just saying bligewater existed as a parallel for this ad DFG you guys are all talking about. It's viability is a totally different matter. It did 150 damage. A nuke has to do damage before it's worth taking into consideration for anything. Yeah, but if gunblade were removed, akali wouldn't be in any position. If Gunblade were removed everyone would realize that Spectral Wraith exists, is 1400g cheaper, and doesn't have a 2200g deadzone. Gundblade doesn't really have a dead zone imo, especially on akali. Also, gunblade is more slot efficient over spectral wraith.
Gunblade has a huge deadzone, and slot-efficiency is a red herring for a snowball champion (on top of the fact that pretty much every champion can afford at least one slot-inefficient item).
Deadzone may be a bit of hyperbole, but the 2200g you spend between Revolver and Gunblade is inefficient and weak compared to just about anything else. Investing in Lifesteal and AD is simply not all that beneficial for Akali, and Cutlass' active is many times less inspiring than Gunblade's (especially post patch). The stats aren't completely useless, but they are not efficient investments by any stretch of the imagination. It's only because of Akali's innate early power spike and the potency of Revolver that she perseveres despite the languid power increase from Cutlass and its components.
So you can have a much earlier power spike and be halfway to your next one by the time Gunblade is finished, or you can build Gunblade. I'm not saying that Spectral Wraith is universally or incontrovertibly better than Gunblade, but it's a viable alternative.
It's also really, really silly to assume that Akali is so one-dimensional as to be useless without Gunblade. Just because it's been the de facto item to rush on her for a long time doesn't mean she's terrible without it.
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I could see Akali players liking Gunblade over the alternatives still, but that's one champion amongst ~110. When the next champion on the list looks at it and goes "I can't really justify ever buying this item anymore" that's not a good sign.
Also the fact that they made Bilgewater Cutlass quite a bit worse (even if its cheaper) is pretty frakking annoying as Jax, since it takes forever and age to complete Gunblade, giving even more reason to get BotRK over it. Not to meniton it's pretty normal to get Bilgewater Cutlass and sit on it while you get other items. Let's mess with a core item for a champion without even really considering them... *grumbles*
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i've only played against quinn twice
in both games she got super fed and then started killing everyone, obviously i hated it, lol
the only things i remember are her using vault, then me trying to use irelia to chase her down with Q, and then vault was up super fast and i couldn't catch her and i died. this was at our mid inhibitor and i chased her to low ground.
then she turned into a bird and all of a sudden she was diving someone near our nexus.
that bird is super fast.
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On March 05 2013 07:54 koreasilver wrote:
How in the world is Randuins "secret OP" when everyone knew that it was pretty much the best overall armor item against ADCs since forever? I swear to god, it's like a third of the people that play this game suffer from collective amnesia.
It's a secret to everybody.
Meanwhile, in the league of ruined kings, we turn to you to save us, Randuin's Omen.
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On March 05 2013 07:48 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 07:40 TheYango wrote:
The thing is "hybrid items" epitomize that bad design which they used as reasoning to scrap Innervating Locket in the first place because by nature they're only going to be useful on those hybrid champions unless they're far past the point of reason on the cost-effectiveness curve.
Then of course, you also have to ask the question--what's the purpose of a hybrid kit if you're going to design hybrid items especially for them? Presumably the reason hybrid champions exist is to explore the itemization dichotomy between AP and AD items, but when you design hybrid items specifically for those champs, it no longer becomes sensible to explore that dichotomy when they're "supposed" to be buying the hybrid items. Instead of having branching itemization options based on AD/AP variants, you have a linear build path along the hybrid items, so its more of the same again. Hybrid kits had a place back before AD scaling, where you combined a bit of the burst of an AP caster with a bit of the sustained damage of an AD. Now? No reason for them to exist since everyone and their mother has an AD ratio on their skills.
Hybrid kits I think would be easier to design if an item or two were added to help out hybrid itemization. In terms of scaling, IIRC only like skarner jax, and kayle (nidalee?) have kits that support using gunblade as a damage item(poppy/akali it's used primarily for the huge amount of spellvamp. The other hybrid items are rageblade, and nashor's(debateable), both of which benefit autoattackers primarily.
I think the problem with making a hybrid kit is that with the current itemization, you'll basically build gunblade, and then you're stuck with itemization which forces you to go one of two build paths, in addition to forcing an autoattack based kit if you want to take full advantage of dual scaling.
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On March 05 2013 08:05 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 07:36 wei2coolman wrote:On March 05 2013 07:31 Seuss wrote:On March 05 2013 07:19 wei2coolman wrote:On March 05 2013 07:12 sylverfyre wrote:On March 05 2013 06:59 wei2coolman wrote:On March 05 2013 06:58 TheYango wrote:On March 05 2013 06:24 zer0das wrote:On March 05 2013 06:07 Lounge wrote:
I think they could get away with splitting it into two items. One with attack speed and the health/life steal passive on hit, and the other with the active and AD. The second one exists, it is called Gunblade. Still a good item, just no reason to build it now that Botrk exists, unless you're Akali. Even then... It's actually sort of funny that Gunblade is still in the game, because for a long time it epitomized the design "must-buy on the people who get it, useless on those who don't"--something which Riot cited as bad design and used as their reasoning for removing Innervating Locket from the game. By that reasoning, Gunblade really should have just been removed from the game rather than being nerfed to where it is now. But.... my akali..... But if gunblade were removed, akali wouldn't be in the awkward position of "If she does too much damage, she is also completely unkillable unless CC'd because of how much life she gains while murdering everyone." On March 05 2013 07:09 Nos- wrote:
I'm just saying bligewater existed as a parallel for this ad DFG you guys are all talking about. It's viability is a totally different matter. It did 150 damage. A nuke has to do damage before it's worth taking into consideration for anything. Yeah, but if gunblade were removed, akali wouldn't be in any position. If Gunblade were removed everyone would realize that Spectral Wraith exists, is 1400g cheaper, and doesn't have a 2200g deadzone. Gundblade doesn't really have a dead zone imo, especially on akali. Also, gunblade is more slot efficient over spectral wraith. Gunblade has a huge deadzone, and slot-efficiency is a red herring for a snowball champion (on top of the fact that pretty much every champion can afford at least one slot-inefficient item). Deadzone may be a bit of hyperbole, but the 2200g you spend between Revolver and Gunblade is inefficient and weak compared to just about anything else. Investing in Lifesteal and AD is simply not all that beneficial for Akali, and Cutlass' active is many times less inspiring than Gunblade's (especially post patch). The stats aren't completely useless, but they are not efficient investments by any stretch of the imagination. It's only because of Akali's innate early power spike and the potency of Revolver that she perseveres despite the languid power increase from Cutlass and its components. So you can have a much earlier power spike and be halfway to your next one by the time Gunblade is finished, or you can build Gunblade. I'm not saying that Spectral Wraith is universally or incontrovertibly better than Gunblade, but it's a viable alternative. It's also really, really silly to assume that Akali is so one-dimensional as to be useless without Gunblade. Just because it's been the de facto item to rush on her for a long time doesn't mean she's terrible without it.
Obviously there are nice other item rushes on her; she's strong with hexdrinker rush, and haunting guise, with that new zhonya build up item as well.
I agree there are other item paths as well, but the thought of eliminating an item path for akali still saddens me, and even if hextech gunblade isn't the "first item rush" it's still an ideal item to have in a 6 item build for akali.
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On March 05 2013 08:09 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 07:54 koreasilver wrote:
How in the world is Randuins "secret OP" when everyone knew that it was pretty much the best overall armor item against ADCs since forever? I swear to god, it's like a third of the people that play this game suffer from collective amnesia. It's a secret to everybody. Meanwhile, in the league of ruined kings, we turn to you to save us, Randuin's Omen.
Why chose ? I go BotrK + Randuin each game. Pretty stronk combo !
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i was about to post i seen an ad still build warmogs and was thinking with botrk on everyone would randuin not be better to buy even on an ad
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On March 05 2013 07:54 koreasilver wrote:
How in the world is Randuins "secret OP" when everyone knew that it was pretty much the best overall armor item against ADCs since forever? I swear to god, it's like a third of the people that play this game suffer from collective amnesia.
because the item got changed to be way more consistent at fucking up ad carries. from a 20% chance to reduce attack speed to 100%? and all you need is a wardens mail to fuck up ad carries? not to mention attack speed got nerfed. It's not much of a secret but the fact is, it became A LOT better during the changes.
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United States37500 Posts
You guys remember Double building Omen on Vayne last week in LCS?
So ahead of the curve...
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On March 05 2013 08:53 NeoIllusions wrote:
You guys remember Double building Omen on Vayne last week in LCS?
So ahead of the curve...
I would consider it the most obvious defensive item for ADC. IE/PD/LW/BT/Boots/Randuins
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United States23745 Posts
On March 05 2013 08:53 NeoIllusions wrote:
You guys remember Double building Omen on Vayne last week in LCS?
So ahead of the curve...
Doublelift...ahead of the curve...that doesn't sound right.
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So Westdoor finally got out of his slave contract and is part of a team with Lantyr and Albis now? How good are they? Didn't have any time to watch chinese/taiwanese LoL these past weeks.
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EPT
