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On February 11 2013 19:38 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 19:24 UniversalSnip wrote:On February 11 2013 18:55 WhiteDog wrote:On February 11 2013 15:09 UniversalSnip wrote:On February 11 2013 14:51 obesechicken13 wrote:On February 11 2013 14:29 BlackPaladin wrote:On February 11 2013 13:58 UniversalSnip wrote:
im really surprised you guys still don't get this. i get that the system is delibrately confusing, but you all read this thread, right? You know it's possible to understand the system, just not agree with it, right? That kind of passive aggressiveness is so annoying... Both of you guys are basically insulting each other without calling each other names so mods don't do anything. "I'm really surprised you guys still don't get this" implies you guys are too dumb to understand something. No. It means I'm surprised that people who post here so regularly aren't reading the posts in this thread. I also mean that I'm surprised (and impressed) by the psychological resilience of the new system's misdirection. I'm writing a FAQ right now that should put it in black and white and hopefully clear things up. BP is just being an idiot (how's that for passive?). I'm not trying to defend the system, I'm not particularly interested in whether people like or dislike it, but it's clear a lot of people here don't really get how it works. I'm not addressing anyone who knows the mechanics. I don't want to play in order to upgrade a hidden number somewhere. If the goal of ranked games is still elo, then there is no reasons to hide it in the first place. The goal is to get to a certain Division / league, period. Elo doesn't mean shit now, since it's hidden. The system is not confusing, the system consider elo as an artefact, a tool for the system to place people and evaluate their positions, and it stays centered around divisions. So if you gain 0 pts, you can touch yourself saying "my elo, the real number that really is interesting to play for, is actually improving", but in the end every body knows that we want those 100 LP, and we play with that goal in mind. Even if you are right in theory, one can understand that people don't like playing to gain 0 LP. You're quoting a post about how I'm not addressing or interested in Argument X, and how irrelevant it is to what I'm saying, and then presenting Argument X to me and saying "don't you think I'm right? I think this is a very good argument." There's also this underlying implication that knowing how the system works can't actually help you gain visible rating, if you prioritize that. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to pick this idea apart. No I'm just stating a fact. You criticise the people that comes in here with their own experience by explaining how the system works. But it has nothing to do with how the system has been made, its architecture, but how the system works and why people play. I did not state any argument, I stated facts : people play for divisions and thus league points, not elo. The knowledge about the system is something else entirely. It's not useless, but it's just not the point here.
Do you just want me to say I think the way challenger league promotion is set up is kind of bad? Because I do, but that seriously has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You're putting words in my mouth and it's really obnoxious.
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On February 11 2013 19:54 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 19:38 WhiteDog wrote:On February 11 2013 19:24 UniversalSnip wrote:On February 11 2013 18:55 WhiteDog wrote:On February 11 2013 15:09 UniversalSnip wrote:On February 11 2013 14:51 obesechicken13 wrote:On February 11 2013 14:29 BlackPaladin wrote:On February 11 2013 13:58 UniversalSnip wrote:
im really surprised you guys still don't get this. i get that the system is delibrately confusing, but you all read this thread, right? You know it's possible to understand the system, just not agree with it, right? That kind of passive aggressiveness is so annoying... Both of you guys are basically insulting each other without calling each other names so mods don't do anything. "I'm really surprised you guys still don't get this" implies you guys are too dumb to understand something. No. It means I'm surprised that people who post here so regularly aren't reading the posts in this thread. I also mean that I'm surprised (and impressed) by the psychological resilience of the new system's misdirection. I'm writing a FAQ right now that should put it in black and white and hopefully clear things up. BP is just being an idiot (how's that for passive?). I'm not trying to defend the system, I'm not particularly interested in whether people like or dislike it, but it's clear a lot of people here don't really get how it works. I'm not addressing anyone who knows the mechanics. I don't want to play in order to upgrade a hidden number somewhere. If the goal of ranked games is still elo, then there is no reasons to hide it in the first place. The goal is to get to a certain Division / league, period. Elo doesn't mean shit now, since it's hidden. The system is not confusing, the system consider elo as an artefact, a tool for the system to place people and evaluate their positions, and it stays centered around divisions. So if you gain 0 pts, you can touch yourself saying "my elo, the real number that really is interesting to play for, is actually improving", but in the end every body knows that we want those 100 LP, and we play with that goal in mind. Even if you are right in theory, one can understand that people don't like playing to gain 0 LP. You're quoting a post about how I'm not addressing or interested in Argument X, and how irrelevant it is to what I'm saying, and then presenting Argument X to me and saying "don't you think I'm right? I think this is a very good argument." There's also this underlying implication that knowing how the system works can't actually help you gain visible rating, if you prioritize that. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to pick this idea apart. No I'm just stating a fact. You criticise the people that comes in here with their own experience by explaining how the system works. But it has nothing to do with how the system has been made, its architecture, but how the system works and why people play. I did not state any argument, I stated facts : people play for divisions and thus league points, not elo. The knowledge about the system is something else entirely. It's not useless, but it's just not the point here. Do you just want me to say I think the way challenger league promotion is set up is kind of bad? Because I do, but that seriously has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You're putting words in my mouth and it's really obnoxious.
No, I don't have any point of view on the new league system really. But we could take a moment and think about the sense of improvement that the new system suppose (when you play 10 game, win all, and stay in the same league) and the rewards it gives for it. This is what I am talking about.
Also, don't feel agressed by my words because I don't have any ill feelings toward you man, love. We are just talking together. It's easy to feel agressed for nothing on the internet, I was just stating that you were talking about something (the league system and its architecture) while others were talking about their feelings and their own point of view in regard to the system.
While the two are linked, one does not exhaust the other.
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well, make whatever argument you want, just don't put implications into my words that aren't there.
If you wanted to discuss the topic that interests you a decent launching board would be this post I read earlier tonight in the riot forums.
this new system is just retarded, people are getting to promotions then gaining 1 lp because their elo is behind what the league is saying they are, you have two elements of a system arguing with each other, and people don't see the problem with this?
(I mean they get to like 98 lp then gain 1)
I struggle with this because i can't set goals, I used to set goals like ok today i'm going to try and rise from 1200 - 1250.
Right now i'm just like, er where am I, i'm silver V but what is that. What's my elo, LKS is inaccurate or isn't elo, because a player had the same LKS as someone who got there promotion to the next tier while the other gained 1 lp and was told "they weren't ready yet" by the MMR system. I feel like now Riot is telling me "Just blindly win games and something will happen" while I'm sitting here struggling to play well because i'm not even sure what i'm striving for or where I currently am.
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On February 11 2013 20:08 UniversalSnip wrote:well, make whatever argument you want, just don't put implications into my words that aren't there. If you wanted to discuss the topic that interests you a decent launching board would be this post I read earlier tonight in the riot forums. Show nested quote +this new system is just retarded, people are getting to promotions then gaining 1 lp because their elo is behind what the league is saying they are, you have two elements of a system arguing with each other, and people don't see the problem with this?
(I mean they get to like 98 lp then gain 1)
I struggle with this because i can't set goals, I used to set goals like ok today i'm going to try and rise from 1200 - 1250.
Right now i'm just like, er where am I, i'm silver V but what is that. What's my elo, LKS is inaccurate or isn't elo, because a player had the same LKS as someone who got there promotion to the next tier while the other gained 1 lp and was told "they weren't ready yet" by the MMR system. I feel like now Riot is telling me "Just blindly win games and something will happen" while I'm sitting here struggling to play well because i'm not even sure what i'm striving for or where I currently am.
You're tight man.
Also the post is exactly what I was talking about, nice find.
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Shouldn't lengthy 1on1 conversations stating exactly the same idea be in PMs?
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Why does nobody get frozen mallet? Its actually quite efficiant, especially if you give lesser value to the regen provided by mogs compared to its flat AD, and that passive is like.....absurd. 40% slow on hit? I would pay like...a lot for that, and you aren't.
I'm going to build it on like everyone. Bruta Locket Mallet Randuins/atmas on every champ.
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On February 11 2013 21:44 sob3k wrote:
Why does nobody get frozen mallet? Its actually quite efficiant, especially if you give lesser value to the regen provided by mogs compared to its flat AD, and that passive is like.....absurd. 40% slow on hit? I would pay like...a lot for that, and you aren't.
I'm going to build it on like everyone. Bruta Locket Mallet Randuins/atmas on every champ.
Because in most situations the slow isn't going to be THAT useful when compared to the extra 300hp + regen that warmogs gives and in situations where it would be useful, a lot of champs already have a slow which makes it less impressive. Also mogs is cheaper 
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The new system rewards winning streaks way too much. I had a 20~ winning streak from Gold II to Plat V in 3 days, and now I'm losing a lot there... But can't be demoted even though I only play Gold IIs >> This is pretty stupid. I don't deserve to be plat.
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On February 11 2013 21:51 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 21:44 sob3k wrote:
Why does nobody get frozen mallet? Its actually quite efficiant, especially if you give lesser value to the regen provided by mogs compared to its flat AD, and that passive is like.....absurd. 40% slow on hit? I would pay like...a lot for that, and you aren't.
I'm going to build it on like everyone. Bruta Locket Mallet Randuins/atmas on every champ. Because in most situations the slow isn't going to be THAT useful when compared to the extra 300hp + regen that warmogs gives and in situations where it would be useful, a lot of champs already have a slow which makes it less impressive. Also mogs is cheaper
Eh, some champs really value the sticking power, others don't.
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I build it on Vi, I build warmogs on Olaf. Undertow does the job so... it depends on your champion and the enemy champs.
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On February 11 2013 21:53 mr_tolkien wrote:
The new system rewards winning streaks way too much. I had a 20~ winning streak from Gold II to Plat V in 3 days, and now I'm losing a lot there... But can't be demoted even though I only play Gold IIs >> This is pretty stupid. I don't deserve to be plat.
You make a good point, I will take your plat and you can have my gold. Will you sort out the paperwork with riot? 
Im not sure about being higher than where you 'belong' tho. You still play with golds and if anything it will give you some better opponents to improve your skills on...
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On February 11 2013 21:53 mr_tolkien wrote:
The new system rewards winning streaks way too much. I had a 20~ winning streak from Gold II to Plat V in 3 days, and now I'm losing a lot there... But can't be demoted even though I only play Gold IIs >> This is pretty stupid. I don't deserve to be plat.
Look at it this way: Being forced to play against players who are better than you without having to worry about falling, will inherently make you better at the game. It may be rough for a bit, but if you focus on improving yourself, it will be better for you in the long run.
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No, matchmaking didn't change. I'm not playing with better players whatsoever. I just have a ranking displayed that is higher than my real skill and it doesn't really make sense.
The new system is fun and well-made, but the elo was so much more straightforward...
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On February 11 2013 17:00 Cuddle wrote:Ty Snip. Can we now move on from complaining about the new system? + Show Spoiler +It's not new, it's just a fucking facade!!! I'd like to start playing a really good initiator. Malph, Shen and Amumu are permabanned at my elo, what would be a good pick up? J4? XZ?
Hecarim. his ult is the most godly initiate/counter initiate I've ever seen and his w goes into 100% troll mode late game
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On February 11 2013 11:05 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 10:48 Two_DoWn wrote:
Diamond+ should switch to actual Elo at the very least.
Then you actually SOLVE the stupid challenger problem, at least a little bit, because top Diamond players can look at their Elo, look at the bottom of challenger's Elo, and have incentive to play and catch up.
Aint none of that here. The funny thing is all of these problems were very well documented with SC2. I doubt there was a single SC2 player that saw these changes and was excited.
This exactly. This blew my mind because I can't believe Riot didn't see how Blizzard failed with GM. In time the other leagues will sort themselves out, but GM has always been a problem. Challenger tier is just GM for LoL and the people who get in were just the people who could grind the most games in the beginning.
I think they should bring back the old ELO system, but still have tiers. Challenger tier could be everyone above 2.5K or something. Just set the tiers at appropriate ELOs and then boom. Everyone is happy. You have the understanding and ease of ELO and the tiers so that people can strive for gold/plat/diamond or whatever.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On February 11 2013 17:13 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 17:00 Cuddle wrote:Ty Snip. Can we now move on from complaining about the new system? + Show Spoiler +It's not new, it's just a fucking facade!!! I'd like to start playing a really good initiator. Malph, Shen and Amumu are permabanned at my elo, what would be a good pick up? J4? XZ? \ Ali, Galio, Vi, Wukong as well. Depends on your style.
If you are going mid vs an AP mid, Galio is SO fun. Build MR and destroy your lane. He is super easy to farm with, Q+E is enough to clear a wave (Q even one shots caster minions very early on), and great sustain with W. Plus, there is nothing like landing a Q to slow them, E to speed you and your team up, and a flash ult to taunt their whole team.
He is super fun, super tanky, and you will easily have the top cs in the game.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
Edit: Double post. God I hate this stupid blackberry, and I hate that I depend on it to reach the outside world.
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United States15536 Posts
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Man, I want to jump on the J4 train just so I can play Lu Bu with that amazing ult.
On a similar vein, it seems that I can really only play bruisers/tanky champions like, at all. Ez and Cait are the only ADs I can play with any sort of success, and Vlad, Ryze, and Elise are the only mids I can play since they end up building a good chunk of defenses anyway. I guess Riven doesn't fit into that, but her shield and damage are kind of bullshit anyway.
Anyway, that random vein was to ask a question: is Galio a decent mid nowadays? I see a lot of bursty mids (Akali, Annie, Lux, etc) and strong AP tops (Elise and Rumble often), and I thought he'd be a good pick into them. I have pretty good success with Vlad vs those types just through getting tanky and pushing hard, but thought maybe he'd be a good option to have as well.
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It's an innate problem with people feeling like they should be rewarded or that they are "earning" elo or MMR or LP or whatever you want to call it.
The system is designed to match you with similar skilled players. It's not designed as something that's earned or gained. It's suppose to move around. People always remember their peak ELO, but that's subject to streaks or winning sprees. Then when they fall back down it's just that they got unlucky, not that it was equalizing. This is further exploited by the fact that you feel like you're getting better and better during that winning spree and your ELO should be going up a lot.
The difference between 1499 and 1500 is minimal, and the difference between say, 2499 and 2500 is even less, but for some reason these are break points for getting shiny things and not.
Edit: Should really finish a post instead of starting it, doing work then coming back and hitting post. This is RE: the current league system vs ELO.
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EPT
