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On January 29 2013 22:37 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 22:03 Shadowpostin wrote:On January 29 2013 21:44 TigerKarl wrote:On January 29 2013 20:54 Simberto wrote:
People are so pussy, unless they are like 10 kills ahead, then they get insanely aggressive and dive past 3 towers. The second i engage on anything, people spam retreat and run away, i don't understand why. Why do you want to let the enemy choose their fights, instead of choosing them yourself? Also, is there a good way to get your team to team up, because somehow, the second you have 5 persons at the same spot, 2 of them back out already because they get bored. It's a basic concept of video games that applies especially to league of legends. Play safe when you're ahead, get more ahead. True skill of mind lies in the avoiding of any situation that might cost or reduce your advantage. No,this is wrong.When your ahead on something like a udyr and by that I mean stupidly fed early walking around with tabi chain west fed you start running around their jungle and tower diving people.It's not stupid its what you do with some heros,you get an advantage and you push it to crush their soul. It's this idiotic mindset of people that causes won games to be lost in the end because you give space to your enemy when you should choke them out completely. For instance people did this thing where they would get a double kill top and get ridic far ahead and than go back and buy a hog or philo stone(or even both) and than proceed to type in chat "?" when irelia came back with d blades to own their ass. I get what you mean is not advocating passive play,but that's what most people end up doing because they don't understand how the mantra works and what you should be doing.It all depends on the situation and your teamcomp really. This goes back to a quote from Tastosis from Starcraft which goes: "If you're ahead, get more ahead!". In Starcraft this is often the case when a small advantage can be used to gain an economic lead which then automatically can become a larger lead by just playing passive as long as your economy is ahead. Eventually you should hit a timing or you can just bring your opponent down due to attrition because your economic leads allows you trade unfavorable. The important thing is that a larger economy allows you to be passive and you forces your opponent to put pressure on you. This concept is completely different in lol due to the way resources work in both games. Resource generation in lol is static. The map generates the same amount of resources for everyone (lets ignore inhibs and certain special abilities for the moment). By being ahead and staying passive, you're actually allowing the enemy to stay even in resource aquisiton and due to the finite amount of item slots every advantage that you gained during the game will disappear eventually if you allow the enemy team to stay even in farm. This is why people say that lol is a momentum based game. Once you secured an advantage, you're able to take fights, that you couldn't previously. So think of fighting as taking a chance for both teams. You need to evaluate prior to the fight the most likely outcome. The further your team is ahead, the smaller your margin of error becomes, you can take bad fights and still come out ahead. So you need to use that to secure objectives and not stay passive. EG (ex.CLG.eu) and GG (ex.M5) are teams which are are good examples to explain this. EG will usually pick a strong late game lineup and even if they fall behind mid game, they will usually stall out the game until the mid game advantage disappears by staying even in farm. The famous "EG" stall, which makes certain casters weep in frustration. GG on the other hand is a team that always tries to get further ahead by exploiting small advantages to build bigger leads. The famous "See Hero, Kill Hero". Just take every fight you can, because you're more likely to build up your lead than to loose it.
But there's other ways to exert "when you're ahead, get more ahead" in LoL - in the laning phase, if you get ahead, you can bully the opponent into missing CS - extending your lead. Or you can use your superior strength to take early towers or objectives. (Objectives don't even really fit your "static resource generation" - if one team gets them, the other team doesn't.) Or you can outright go for the kill. Or you can roam. Even a jungler who's ahead can start to bully the other jungler / counterjungle / enter the enemy jungle and fight the jungler, forcing the enemy to recall a few camps earlier or forego a gank that he might have made. So yes. "When you're ahead, get more ahead" still fits - but it no longer always means "when you're ahead, play passive." but it does still mean "When you're ahead, don't throw your lead by going ham and trying to kill them at all costs"
You're right that "maintaining your lead" isn't effective - it's commonly known that a 1k gold lead at 5 minutes is a lot different from a 1k gold lead at 20 minutes, from a 1k gold lead at 40 minutes. It's more percentage-gold lead that matters (10% is a significant, but not enormous lead. 20% is where it starts to really swing out of control most of the time.)
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Ok, weird question:
I think that in the Tribunal review cases i get, 3-digit numbers get turned into ---. Like "You play like --- elo" or similar things (Or do people really write that?). Why is this the case? Is this just like this so that if someone posts someone elses IP in chat the reviewers can't see it? This is the only thing i can come up with that makes some sort of sense.
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On January 29 2013 23:53 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 22:37 BlueSpace wrote:On January 29 2013 22:03 Shadowpostin wrote:On January 29 2013 21:44 TigerKarl wrote:On January 29 2013 20:54 Simberto wrote:
People are so pussy, unless they are like 10 kills ahead, then they get insanely aggressive and dive past 3 towers. The second i engage on anything, people spam retreat and run away, i don't understand why. Why do you want to let the enemy choose their fights, instead of choosing them yourself? Also, is there a good way to get your team to team up, because somehow, the second you have 5 persons at the same spot, 2 of them back out already because they get bored. It's a basic concept of video games that applies especially to league of legends. Play safe when you're ahead, get more ahead. True skill of mind lies in the avoiding of any situation that might cost or reduce your advantage. No,this is wrong.When your ahead on something like a udyr and by that I mean stupidly fed early walking around with tabi chain west fed you start running around their jungle and tower diving people.It's not stupid its what you do with some heros,you get an advantage and you push it to crush their soul. It's this idiotic mindset of people that causes won games to be lost in the end because you give space to your enemy when you should choke them out completely. For instance people did this thing where they would get a double kill top and get ridic far ahead and than go back and buy a hog or philo stone(or even both) and than proceed to type in chat "?" when irelia came back with d blades to own their ass. I get what you mean is not advocating passive play,but that's what most people end up doing because they don't understand how the mantra works and what you should be doing.It all depends on the situation and your teamcomp really. This goes back to a quote from Tastosis from Starcraft which goes: "If you're ahead, get more ahead!". In Starcraft this is often the case when a small advantage can be used to gain an economic lead which then automatically can become a larger lead by just playing passive as long as your economy is ahead. Eventually you should hit a timing or you can just bring your opponent down due to attrition because your economic leads allows you trade unfavorable. The important thing is that a larger economy allows you to be passive and you forces your opponent to put pressure on you. This concept is completely different in lol due to the way resources work in both games. Resource generation in lol is static. The map generates the same amount of resources for everyone (lets ignore inhibs and certain special abilities for the moment). By being ahead and staying passive, you're actually allowing the enemy to stay even in resource aquisiton and due to the finite amount of item slots every advantage that you gained during the game will disappear eventually if you allow the enemy team to stay even in farm. This is why people say that lol is a momentum based game. Once you secured an advantage, you're able to take fights, that you couldn't previously. So think of fighting as taking a chance for both teams. You need to evaluate prior to the fight the most likely outcome. The further your team is ahead, the smaller your margin of error becomes, you can take bad fights and still come out ahead. So you need to use that to secure objectives and not stay passive. EG (ex.CLG.eu) and GG (ex.M5) are teams which are are good examples to explain this. EG will usually pick a strong late game lineup and even if they fall behind mid game, they will usually stall out the game until the mid game advantage disappears by staying even in farm. The famous "EG" stall, which makes certain casters weep in frustration. GG on the other hand is a team that always tries to get further ahead by exploiting small advantages to build bigger leads. The famous "See Hero, Kill Hero". Just take every fight you can, because you're more likely to build up your lead than to loose it. But there's other ways to exert "when you're ahead, get more ahead" in LoL - in the laning phase, if you get ahead, you can bully the opponent into missing CS - extending your lead. Or you can use your superior strength to take early towers or objectives. (Objectives don't even really fit your "static resource generation" - if one team gets them, the other team doesn't.) Or you can outright go for the kill. Or you can roam. Even a jungler who's ahead can start to bully the other jungler / counterjungle / enter the enemy jungle and fight the jungler, forcing the enemy to recall a few camps earlier or forego a gank that he might have made. So yes. "When you're ahead, get more ahead" still fits - but it no longer always means "when you're ahead, play passive." but it does still mean "When you're ahead, don't throw your lead by going ham and trying to kill them at all costs" You're right that "maintaining your lead" isn't effective - it's commonly known that a 1k gold lead at 5 minutes is a lot different from a 1k gold lead at 20 minutes, from a 1k gold lead at 40 minutes. It's more percentage-gold lead that matters (10% is a significant, but not enormous lead. 20% is where it starts to really swing out of control most of the time.)
If you look at every single example that you give, than there is a common denominator. The stronger team takes initiative to further enhance their lead by being aggressive (bullying, roaming, ganking), I also explicitly wrote that you should use your advantage to secure objectives. And obviously being overly aggressive can cause you to throw the game, but as I said before, that doesn't rely change the underlying principle.
Regarding the static resources thing, I was mainly talking about lane creeps. Yes you can deny your opponent lane creeps by bullying him or taking map control and prevent people from farming, but you can't change the number of creeps which are generated.
In SC2 the income you generate is related to the number of resource nodes that you occupy. In principle this is also static because you can't generate new nodes, but my main point was that you automatically generate more resources just by occupying them with workers while in Lol you have to exert control to deny your opponent from "harvesting" his resources which are automatically generated by the map. Maybe static is not the best word to describe it. Towers are a static resource nodes though. You "harvest" them once and they won't increase directly the amount of income that you will generate in the future.
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United States23745 Posts
On January 29 2013 22:11 AsnSensation wrote:
@alaric elise is just stupidly broken atm make sure to ban her at least until the manacost nerfs
Concerning the travis discussion i ve never really liked him. Copying a second show now from jp is rly ballsy. The only thing he really got going for him is being close to clg and some other pros which provides exclusive footage from gaming houses etc. His interviews are are not that good and his akward handshakes at the end of each interview are hilarious.
It was an honest mistake, Marn kept saying "real talk" on the Christmas episode of SotL so fans wanted him to name the new show Real Talk with Marn. He didn't realize he was taking another of jp's show names (SotL is still more of an homage than a rip-off imo) and as soon as he found out he immediately apologized and changed the name right away.
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On January 29 2013 23:41 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 23:34 TSBspartacus wrote:
Diana jungle, anyone have any thoughts?
I enjoy it and ganks are really strong, as well as insanely fast clear times taking little damage.
Struggling to see the negative side of her, especially with spirit of the ancient golem. It's a wasted potential thing. She needs lane farm to be truly a monster unless you snowball off early ganks
diana jungle is fine..
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On January 29 2013 11:09 Scip wrote:
Yeah, if someone claimed that spears are invisible, he might have been telling the truth. Earlier today I was playing against AP nidalee and instead of spears there were wide green clouds. It was fucking terrifying. Her heal made a massive green cloud around the enemy she casted it on too. That, too, was terrifying. But most importantly, I am not used to dodging massive green clouds. sigh.
I was a fucking master at yogg saron bring it on bitch
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On January 30 2013 02:03 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 11:09 Scip wrote:
Yeah, if someone claimed that spears are invisible, he might have been telling the truth. Earlier today I was playing against AP nidalee and instead of spears there were wide green clouds. It was fucking terrifying. Her heal made a massive green cloud around the enemy she casted it on too. That, too, was terrifying. But most importantly, I am not used to dodging massive green clouds. sigh. I was a fucking master at yogg saron bring it on bitch
When I played yesterday night I had lux ball be invisible. It still distorted the area around it, so you could just barely see it and I clutch-dodged a few, but in a teamfight, my god was it unavoidable. Nyan. I hope they fix it soon, it can be annoying sometimes. :3
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lux e is pretty hard to dodge on reflex unless you have super fast ms and you can dodge it by just running around randomly anyway so she cant just hit sitting ducks
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On January 30 2013 02:03 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 11:09 Scip wrote:
Yeah, if someone claimed that spears are invisible, he might have been telling the truth. Earlier today I was playing against AP nidalee and instead of spears there were wide green clouds. It was fucking terrifying. Her heal made a massive green cloud around the enemy she casted it on too. That, too, was terrifying. But most importantly, I am not used to dodging massive green clouds. sigh. I was a fucking master at yogg saron bring it on bitch
Stand in the cloud one more time and I'll turn this raid around..?
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That sounds like a song lyric
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Anyone know why Swain isn't used more in competitive play?
I've been playing with some friends far above my skill level (1800+, I'm not near that), and the only character I can hold my own with is Swain. I literally never lose mid lane, the worst I can do is tie. Strong single target, tanky, strong aoe... I'm surprised I never see him in pro/high teir games. I even played him top and did just fine against Wukong and Irelia (separate games).
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United States15977 Posts
Well advantage (as measured by gold) isn't exactly linear in LoL. It comes more in 2 or 3k gold chunks as people buy big items, and that gold usually tends to spread out among the team.
With a 8k advantage, your team is up like an Aegis, DCap and IE. With smaller one, its up a vamp scep, sheen and a couple boots and basic components. At that point, if the enemy team has a good comp or engage you could still easily blow it.
Not a perfect argument, but one I thought worth throwing out there.
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So LCS starts in a little over a week, right? And we have nothing in the ways of knowledge about it. Like, do we have a schedule of when teams play each other? Do we even know what time the games take start?
I don't understand why Riot hasn't published this information, or made it more public if they had. You would think 10 days before the event kicks off they would be hyping it up, but I see nothing about it at all on their mainpage (except the announcement about the teams that qualified for Europe's LCS).
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On January 30 2013 02:36 Crownlol wrote:
Anyone know why Swain isn't used more in competitive play?
I've been playing with some friends far above my skill level (1800+, I'm not near that), and the only character I can hold my own with is Swain. I literally never lose mid lane, the worst I can do is tie. Strong single target, tanky, strong aoe... I'm surprised I never see him in pro/high teir games. I even played him top and did just fine against Wukong and Irelia (separate games).
No idea actually. You max torment on Swain right? Maybe it's because he has poor pushing power without a lot of mana from his ult. There aren't any mids right now who clear slowly in competitive play.
Swain's supposed to do fine vs bruisers though. And going even does not mean you belong at 1800 elo Swain. Could have been a few lucky games.
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United States47024 Posts
It's not so easy just to force fights and end the game. There's no high ground miss chance or buybacks, but base terrain layout, vision, and Homeguard boots are still pretty significant sources of defender's advantage. You do need to get a pretty sizable lead to actually be able to enter the enemy base.
It's just as easy to throw a game by overstepping your lead and trying to push an inhib too early as it is to farm out the game too long.
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With all of the ADC+support lane swaps nowadays, what exactly are people going for in terms of both duo comp and laning goal. I've seen some Cait Nunu and their obvious goal is to smash the enemy laner enough to take an early tower lead, the probably swap again to another lane. What other duo comps are even somewhat similar in the sense of tower taking potential?
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On January 30 2013 02:56 DeltaBravo wrote:
With all of the ADC+support lane swaps nowadays, what exactly are people going for in terms of both duo comp and laning goal. I've seen some Cait Nunu and their obvious goal is to smash the enemy laner enough to take an early tower lead, the probably swap again to another lane. What other duo comps are even somewhat similar in the sense of tower taking potential?
Graves/lulu is very good.You can also switch if you think your bot would get smashed and you prefer top to be underfarmed.
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The "other" Real Talk will be in a little more than 3 hours.
Count down timer
I've always liked Real Talk, even if it's sometime a little too damn long.
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On January 30 2013 02:36 Crownlol wrote:
Anyone know why Swain isn't used more in competitive play?
I've been playing with some friends far above my skill level (1800+, I'm not near that), and the only character I can hold my own with is Swain. I literally never lose mid lane, the worst I can do is tie. Strong single target, tanky, strong aoe... I'm surprised I never see him in pro/high teir games. I even played him top and did just fine against Wukong and Irelia (separate games).
He has a lot of good match-ups, but he can't shove. He is very reliant on blue and if you ever fall behind, Swain doesn't do much. His combo does do a lot of damage, but you can't guarantee to get it off on the proper target in a teamfight.
I used to play Swain quite a bit, but I think Ryze just does everything that Swain does better, with a weaker lane though.
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On January 30 2013 03:01 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 02:56 DeltaBravo wrote:
With all of the ADC+support lane swaps nowadays, what exactly are people going for in terms of both duo comp and laning goal. I've seen some Cait Nunu and their obvious goal is to smash the enemy laner enough to take an early tower lead, the probably swap again to another lane. What other duo comps are even somewhat similar in the sense of tower taking potential? Graves/lulu is very good.You can also switch if you think your bot would get smashed and you prefer top to be underfarmed.
Egh, for some reason it doesn't strike me as fantastic at killing towers, with Graves Asp nerf it seems like you'd be able to throw whatever top or mid laner out of lane for a bit, but I'd think you'd have a hard time taking towers.
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EPT
