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On January 24 2013 13:04 obesechicken13 wrote:
Why did the jungle get changed going into S3? Does anyone have the thread as to why? Was it to prevent people from taking wraiths mid?
Because I still see people doing that.
And it's kind of sad that the jungle itemization changes aren't having much effect so the spirit stone jungle items are having their costs lowered.
The new jungle was so easy and gave so little it as just a massive gankfest. Games weren't decided by your skill in a lane but by who could get the most ganks from a jungler. This made the snowballing nature of the game even worse.
They figured forcing junglers to spend gold and more time just to clear the jungle would solve this. Unfrotunately, like I said when the new jungle changes were released, spending gold just to farm the jungle isn't viable. It costs too much to have nothing that actually helps you win the game actively. Surprise, wriggles is over priced and you should stop at madreds.
To put it simply, the old jungle was better, but the limited pool of champions that could jungle needed to be fixed. They went the round about way of doing it, making the jungle easier so anyone could jungle, then making the jungle harder and adding in a jungling specific item for cheap. Net difference is we now have a item you buy to help you jungle.
Also I only saw the ap spirit stone item getting nerfed, since it's fucking impossible for most ap's to jungle anyways. Are the others getting reduced cost?
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On January 24 2013 13:12 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 13:04 obesechicken13 wrote:
Why did the jungle get changed going into S3? Does anyone have the thread as to why? Was it to prevent people from taking wraiths mid?
Because I still see people doing that.
And it's kind of sad that the jungle itemization changes aren't having much effect so the spirit stone jungle items are having their costs lowered. The new jungle was so easy and gave so little it as just a massive gankfest. Games weren't decided by your skill in a lane but by who could get the most ganks from a jungler. This made the snowballing nature of the game even worse. They figured forcing junglers to spend gold and more time just to clear the jungle would solve this. Unfrotunately, like I said when the new jungle changes were released, spending gold just to farm the jungle isn't viable. It costs too much to have nothing that actually helps you win the game actively. Surprise, wriggles is over priced and you should stop at madreds. To put it simply, the old jungle was better, but the limited pool of champions that could jungle needed to be fixed. They went the round about way of doing it, making the jungle easier so anyone could jungle, then making the jungle harder and adding in a jungling specific item for cheap. Net difference is we now have a item you buy to help you jungle. Also I only saw the ap spirit stone item getting nerfed, since it's fucking impossible for most ap's to jungle anyways. Are the others getting reduced cost?
Well spirit got its cost buffed, so that buffs the other items' costs.
There's also definitely a tradeoff between making the game snowbally and making the game have action. I'd like to see a kills per minute chart from S2 -> S3.
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On January 24 2013 13:04 obesechicken13 wrote:
Why did the jungle get changed going into S3? Does anyone have the thread as to why? Was it to prevent people from taking wraiths mid?
Because I still see people doing that.
And it's kind of sad that the jungle itemization changes aren't having much effect so the spirit stone jungle items are having their costs lowered.
Jungle has been talked about, extensively, in the various general talk threads. A TLDR (still kinda long) would be as follows:
Riots Goals:
1. Reduce Jungle Gank Power Earlygame.
2. Allow "Farming" or "Carry" Junglers to be viable, jungle should be more powerful late than before.
3. End the "Boots3" start for all characters.
4. Stop Laners from constantly "stealing" jungle camps
What Happened:
1. Junglers were made weaker early.
2. Carry junglers are viable...in soloqueue, but not in competitive.
3. Boots3 is no longer allowed for junglers, and most laners choose other, more viable options.
4. Laners still take jungle camps.
5. Junglers are weaker at all times during the game, assuming the same skill/playstyle/etc because of the (now mandatory) machete start.
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being on a pro player's friends list makes me feel all bubbly inside even if it's on his smurf
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
How would we even know whether or not are carry junglers competitive? I am admit that I myself aren't a very big fan of pro-gamer hate for lack of creativity, but the changes aren't out for anywhere near long enough to be able to say. The last patch introduced changes into jungle that significantly changed the jungling speed ratio of AoE junglers:single target junglers. And that's not even mentioning the fact that we don't really have an idea of what a carry jungler looks like.
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On January 24 2013 13:16 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 13:04 obesechicken13 wrote:
Why did the jungle get changed going into S3? Does anyone have the thread as to why? Was it to prevent people from taking wraiths mid?
Because I still see people doing that.
And it's kind of sad that the jungle itemization changes aren't having much effect so the spirit stone jungle items are having their costs lowered. Jungle has been talked about, extensively, in the various general talk threads. A TLDR (still kinda long) would be as follows: Riots Goals: 1. Reduce Jungle Gank Power Earlygame. 2. Allow "Farming" or "Carry" Junglers to be viable, jungle should be more powerful late than before. 3. End the "Boots3" start for all characters. 4. Stop Laners from constantly "stealing" jungle camps What Happened: 1. Junglers were made weaker early. 2. Carry junglers are viable...in soloqueue, but not in competitive. 3. Boots3 is no longer allowed for junglers, and most laners choose other, more viable options. 4. Laners still take jungle camps. 5. Junglers are weaker at all times during the game, assuming the same skill/playstyle/etc because of the (now mandatory) machete start.
Basic translation: they wanted season 1 jungle again, but are too stubborn to just admit it.
It used to be you could perfectly track where a jungler was based on a single clairvoyance at 2:30 and know where he was going to be for the next 3 minutes, which allowed for much more laning freedom.
However, it also brought out a jungler's strength because a jungler was much more free to punish the enemy jungler as well as rewarding a jungler for being irregular. You could give up a camp, which hurt a TON since camps used to actually be worth money, but you would be able to punish lanes much better.
Although to be fair this was well before anyone ever bought a ward.
God Riot really should impose ward limits. They never will though.
On January 24 2013 13:43 Scip wrote:
How would we even know whether or not are carry junglers competitive? I am admit that I myself aren't a very big fan of pro-gamer hate for lack of creativity, but the changes aren't out for anywhere near long enough to be able to say. The last patch introduced changes into jungle that significantly changed the jungling speed ratio of AoE junglers:single target junglers. And that's not even mentioning the fact that we don't really have an idea of what a carry jungler looks like.
Go back 3 years and watch Regi's Shaco.
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On January 24 2013 13:43 Scip wrote:
How would we even know whether or not are carry junglers competitive? I am admit that I myself aren't a very big fan of pro-gamer hate for lack of creativity, but the changes aren't out for anywhere near long enough to be able to say. The last patch introduced changes into jungle that significantly changed the jungling speed ratio of AoE junglers:single target junglers. And that's not even mentioning the fact that we don't really have an idea of what a carry jungler looks like.
Lee Sin and Noc are the two that come to mind immediately for me
I think Zed fits in there but I haven't seen it yet in a pro game iirc
I mean, it's different in the sense that they're not doing the soloq thing and taxing lanes and stealing buffs, but there's a good reason for that, too, I think.
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Go back 3 years and watch Regi's Shaco.
i don't think anything from three years ago has much value at this point 
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On January 24 2013 13:43 Scip wrote:
How would we even know whether or not are carry junglers competitive? I am admit that I myself aren't a very big fan of pro-gamer hate for lack of creativity, but the changes aren't out for anywhere near long enough to be able to say. The last patch introduced changes into jungle that significantly changed the jungling speed ratio of AoE junglers:single target junglers. And that's not even mentioning the fact that we don't really have an idea of what a carry jungler looks like.
Nocturne?
Then again, it'd probably be more effective to dump health on him anyway too.
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An increase in IP for new champs?
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United States47024 Posts
On January 24 2013 13:43 Scip wrote:
How would we even know whether or not are carry junglers competitive? I am admit that I myself aren't a very big fan of pro-gamer hate for lack of creativity, but the changes aren't out for anywhere near long enough to be able to say. The last patch introduced changes into jungle that significantly changed the jungling speed ratio of AoE junglers:single target junglers. And that's not even mentioning the fact that we don't really have an idea of what a carry jungler looks like.
If the numbers Monte put out for the jungle after the rework of the camp numbers last patch are correct, I honestly think any difference in farm priority between top lane and jungle are down to player/team preference at this point. The difference in farm availability isn't enough to say that inherently top lane is a better place to put a higher position hero (certainly especially due to the volatility of top lane matchups and the possibility of lane swaps, it's *safer* to have a higher position hero in the jungle).
As of right now, I think top lane gets higher farm priority and more selfish itemization simply out of the fact that people are used to doing so, not because it's inherently better. Certainly, the champ pool for top lane and jungle are similar enough.
EDIT: I should say though that typically by nature of the map arrangement, junglers generally have higher participation in early-midgame teamfights, which thus favors them buying the defensive/supportive teamfight items over top laners doing the same (e.g. a top laner getting Locket/Aegis and then not being in a fight is pretty awkward). The top laners, who get to have more selfish itemization, by extension have an easier time transitioning onto lategame carry items.
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On January 24 2013 13:49 UniversalSnip wrote:i don't think anything from three years ago has much value at this point
Just if he wants to see what happens when you actually let a jungle character get strong.
Although I will admit it was a combination of a massively strong early game and late game.
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I'm pretty sure I posted in this thread why carry junglers aren't truly viable. And yes, true viability comes from actual 5's play, because the format always matches it for good reason. Professional play in all games effect the nonprofessional play.
On January 24 2013 13:50 BluePanther wrote:An increase in IP for new champs?
Only for the first week or two.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Yeah, you dump HP on Lee Sin and Nocturne. From jungle you can get 1 damage item on both though, I am pretty sure, but nothing big, unless you get really fed. Something like Spirit of the Lizard Elder works quite fine on Nocturne I think. Neither of these can be really considered carries though, I don't think, they are always a supplement to your diving champions, not it's core (or in case of Lee, occasionally, a peeling champion with his kick and slow). Like none of there champion resemble what we call carries, as in things that do a lot of damage and are usully protected in some way.
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On January 24 2013 13:54 SnK-Arcbound wrote:I'm pretty sure I posted in this thread why carry junglers aren't truly viable. And yes, true viability comes from actual 5's play, because the format always matches it for good reason. Professional play in all games effect the nonprofessional play. Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 13:50 BluePanther wrote:An increase in IP for new champs? Only for the first week or two.
Carry jungle is not viable, because the jungle farm isn't yet equal to, or greater than solo lane farm. Literally, only after that would a true "carry" jungle be viable. That is just how this game works.
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On January 24 2013 13:58 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 13:54 SnK-Arcbound wrote:I'm pretty sure I posted in this thread why carry junglers aren't truly viable. And yes, true viability comes from actual 5's play, because the format always matches it for good reason. Professional play in all games effect the nonprofessional play. On January 24 2013 13:50 BluePanther wrote:An increase in IP for new champs? Only for the first week or two. Carry jungle is not viable, because the jungle farm isn't yet equal to, or greater than solo lane farm. Literally, only after that would a true "carry" jungle be viable. That is just how this game works.
That's exactly what I posted. But people still like to try and make a difference between 5's teams and solo queue, as if one isn't strictly superior, and the other doesn't follow the picks and play.
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I think Vi is the best and most viable carry jungler right now. Watching xj9 enlightened me.
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The main issue on why a carry jungle really just wont work has everything to do with why melee carries in general tend not to work in lol.
Melee carries in Dota and LoL are only effective when they have a TREMENDOUS gold lead on every other character in the game. Its why a super farmed Yi or Trynd will still dominate a game of LoL, despite their inherent weaknesses. Its why you see AM dominate a game of Dota. He just gets so much farm so quickly that other characters cant keep up with his items (although short CD blink also helps). And pretty much every carry jungle is a melee carry.
What makes melee carries work in Dota is that it is actually possible, in any given game, to see large discrepancies in farm. In LoL, each lane will get about the same amount, and the size of the map and value of baron makes it much harder to "hide" a carry to get extra farm to the point they can bust out with a 2 item lead on the rest of the characters. So where in Dota you can just put an AM with a battle fury in the jungle and let him do his thing for 5 minutes then roll through a team, there is no way to really do that in LoL. And without an item advantage, a melee carry is just cannon fodder (see every pub underfarmed AM ever)
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On January 24 2013 14:06 Two_DoWn wrote:
The main issue on why a carry jungle really just wont work has everything to do with why melee carries in general tend not to work in lol.
Melee carries in Dota and LoL are only effective when they have a TREMENDOUS gold lead on every other character in the game. Its why a super farmed Yi or Trynd will still dominate a game of LoL, despite their inherent weaknesses. Its why you see AM dominate a game of Dota. He just gets so much farm so quickly that other characters cant keep up with his items (although short CD blink also helps). And pretty much every carry jungle is a melee carry.
What makes melee carries work in Dota is that it is actually possible, in any given game, to see large discrepancies in farm. In LoL, each lane will get about the same amount, and the size of the map and value of baron makes it much harder to "hide" a carry to get extra farm to the point they can bust out with a 2 item lead on the rest of the characters. So where in Dota you can just put an AM with a battle fury in the jungle and let him do his thing for 5 minutes then roll through a team, there is no way to really do that in LoL. And without an item advantage, a melee carry is just cannon fodder (see every pub underfarmed AM ever)
You're only partially right. With the way Dota was designed, there are many abilities that are ''broken''. These include AM's 40% magic resistance and 5 second blink CD, Void's 35% chance to negate ANY source of damage, 35% bash chance and a huge AoE 5 second time-stop that lets only Void move. Yi's Q, W and E are nothing in comparison. Yi's kit simply isn't made to be an AD carry, it's just a bad kit. Tryndamere's kit is much more fluidly designed but even he has nothing on Dota carries. Another big reason is the existence of Manta style, Vanguard and most importantly BKB.
Another reason that you kinda touch on, I guess - DotA melee carries are fucking trash in the early game and very, very bad in the mid game. Their late games are unrivaled, but only because they are balanced by their horrible early games. League has nothing ballsy like that. I believe that if Riot made a champion with a skillset that's very bad early and bad mid + it's suited for autoattacking and surviving, he (as a melee carry) could be viable. Nobody like that exists, though. Tryndamere is too weak overall and has no way of fighting CC.
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Baa?21245 Posts
On January 24 2013 13:48 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 13:43 Scip wrote:
How would we even know whether or not are carry junglers competitive? I am admit that I myself aren't a very big fan of pro-gamer hate for lack of creativity, but the changes aren't out for anywhere near long enough to be able to say. The last patch introduced changes into jungle that significantly changed the jungling speed ratio of AoE junglers:single target junglers. And that's not even mentioning the fact that we don't really have an idea of what a carry jungler looks like. Lee Sin and Noc are the two that come to mind immediately for me I think Zed fits in there but I haven't seen it yet in a pro game iirc I mean, it's different in the sense that they're not doing the soloq thing and taxing lanes and stealing buffs, but there's a good reason for that, too, I think.
zed pops up in asian games now and then, sometimes jungled
he also eats a lot of bans, at least in SEA
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EPT
